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Steve Watkins
Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 24, 2010 at 10:27:24 am

Shooting 24 frame drop frame (23.98) on the red cam. - Have the song at 44.1/24 .wav
- good with protools
- no sync slate.
- want to use PT and FCP to create a video with the converted track and timecode.

On set we\'ll have a video iPod run to the speakers. Hit play on the iPod, show iPod with tc to rolling cam and call \"action\".

That should work right?
How do I convert the audio to 23.98?



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Jean-Christophe Boulay
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 24, 2010 at 7:45:10 pm

"How do I convert the audio to 23.98?"

You don't. You're talking either video frame rate or time code rate. Audio has sample rate, in your case 44.1kHz. The rest of the workflow seems pretty iffy to me, but if that's the way it has to go down, I guess it could work.

Ideally, you'd really want your audio on a timecoded source, to be able to run that TC to your camera. Some major swearing from the video editor would be saved this way. Traditionally, music videos are shot using an audio CD with the song in mono on the left side (that gets played on the set) and audio timecode on the right track (that goes into the camera TC input). The TC format you use should be the one you shoot in. That way, every time the song is started, TC goes to the camera and all takes can be aligned to audio for editing in seconds, without having to go back to the beginning of the take all the time. I've been involved in such projects countless times and this workflow has always been airtight.

IHTH

JC Boulay
Technical Director
Audio Z
Montreal, Canada
http://www.audioz.com


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Thax Clave
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 24, 2010 at 11:25:32 pm

[Jean-Christophe Boulay] "every time the song is started, TC goes to the camera and all takes can be aligned to audio for editing in seconds, without having to go back to the beginning of the take all the time."

Couple of ways to make that work better for you.

1- Change TAPES with every take. Each tape can be captured separately.
If you need to recapture the tapes, it's a piece of cake.

-or-

2- If you do record multiple takes on the same tape,
be sure to carefully SLATE each take and then
capture the tape manually, capturing each take as its own separate clip.

And, if you have, say, 10 takes on the same tape, each with the same time code repeated over-and-over, and need to RE-CAPTURE the tape (to Up-Rez, or change editing locations, or for any other reason) and simply stick your one (multi-take) tape into the machine to batch capture...
Oh, man! You're in for a mess! The edit system can't tell one take from another...
They all have the same TC.

And, allow plenty of extra TC at the head of the CD before the music track begins.
CD should have some sort of audio countdown or click-track that counts the musicians
into the head of the song.
(I like about 15-30 secs. of good solid TC before the song starts.)



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Steve Watkins
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 1:41:01 am

interesting stuff guys.

Well we're not recording to tape. The red records to a hard drive.

We're doing this on a D.I.Y. budget so there's no way we're going to be able to get a time code generator and send TC to the camera from playback. Or get a jam sync slate.

I have to work with what's possible for us right now.

I know that there is time code for video and sample rates for audio. what I'm talking about is the shift that occurs having the band sing to audio recorded at 24fps drop frame. the footage is dropping a frame which effects the speed of the band singing and playing so by the end of the song there will be significant drift from the original audio track.

Therefore I'm lead to understand that i need to speed up or slow down the audio by 0.1 % or something like that.

anybody else out there do playback for music videos?


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Ty Ford
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 2:53:32 am

Hello Steve,

Why 26 FPS drop frame. Why not 24 non-drop?

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Steve Watkins
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 2:57:16 am

we are shooting in 24 fps


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Ty Ford
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 12:39:28 pm

sorry, it was too late when I tyed that last night. :)


why drop frame?

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Thax Clave
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 4:11:37 am

Drop frame and Non-Drop Frame are the exact same "speed."

With DF, no actual recorded FRAMES are dropped.
Only certain of the Time Code frame NUMBERS are dropped.
But, even in DF, every single video and audio frame remains on the recording.

DF and NDF are simply two different ways of NUMBERING the TC track.

DF will yield a TC that is clock-accurate, NDF will yield a TC with no numbers "missing."
But neither of those will in any way affect the speed, quality, or length of the recording playback.



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cowcowcowcow
Will Salley
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 8:04:09 am

I do music video a bunch.

Here's how we do it most of the time:
Single camera (or multi) w/ timecode in from playback device ( Sound Devices 744T) with final mix on the drive.
Music track is 24/96 from Pro Tools with a 30 second countdown and click.
Timecode is 29.97 NDF throughout the entire project. I consider 24 FPS too stroby for the fast movement of most music projects. We'll usually shoot 30P and even overcrank to 48 on non-synced shots - especially if the camera is on a boom - which it usually is.
(even with super 16 film, we shoot at 30 FPS and open the shutter angle to give it some blur)

The playback audio is split out to the cameras- just in case.

The same audio track (WAV with embedded TC) is brought into the NLE and maintained.


If you don't have access to a TC capable deck or playback, do it this way:

Create a project in the NLE, import the master audio track and place on the timeline. LOCK the audio track so it can't be moved. Use a timecode generator filter on the track and make the TC window as large as you can fit in the preview window - well give it a little room on the edges. Then render a 1280x720 (with audio) Quicktime of that. Use that as your playback file in a laptop. Shoot the laptops monitor at the beginning and end of each take. Sync visually in post using the same project that you originally created. You should still be able to use Multicam in FCP or Avid to cut with, which is essential for cutting music videos.



Mac Pro 2x2.8 Quadcore - 10.6.2 - QT 7.6.3 - 22 GB RAM - nvidia8800GT - SATA internal & external storage - Blackmagic Multibridge Pro - Open GL 1.5.10 - Wacom Intous2 tablet - AJA io
SONY XDCAM EX3 - Letus Elite


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Ty Ford
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 12:48:33 pm

Great Post Mr. Salley!!

One question. You said, "Single camera (or multi) w/ timecode in from playback device ( Sound Devices 744T) with final mix on the drive.
Music track is 24/96 from Pro Tools with a 30 second countdown and click."

If the 744T is the playback device, what's the pro tools rig for?

Regards,

Ty Ford


Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Will Salley
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 4:55:41 pm

Ty, That's just where the track originates. It could be a 2-track tape, or other mastering device. The point I was making is that the 744T needs to be physically connected to the output of the mastering device (digital or analog) to record the track and lay down the TC. If it is digital, then an intermediate playback device (Masterlink, another DAW, etc) could suffice.

Pro Tools, or any other DAW is not necessary for the video shoot.

Mac Pro 2x2.8 Quadcore - 10.6.2 - QT 7.6.3 - 22 GB RAM - nvidia8800GT - SATA internal & external storage - Blackmagic Multibridge Pro - Open GL 1.5.10 - Wacom Intous2 tablet - AJA io
SONY XDCAM EX3 - Letus Elite


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Ty Ford
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 5:04:17 pm

Will,

Thanks!

I confuse easily.

Regards,

Ty

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Steve Watkins
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 5:30:37 pm

so what equipment did you use to be able to send TC on one channel and the audio on another?


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Richard Crowley
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 3:35:29 am

"That should work right?
How do I convert the audio to 23.98? "

So the iPod playback and the sync audio track on the Red are only for reference, right?

The REAL music track from the master mix is layed into the NLE. I've done this many times with no timecode, just by manually tweaking the video into place so that the video (scratch) audio track matches the (master) reference audio track from the original music mix. It isn't rocket surgery. Takes longer to explain than to just do it.


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Steve Watkins
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 3:40:17 am

maybe it's just me but it seams pretty condescending around here. Manners. They don't require a rocket scientist either.


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Richard Crowley
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 8:20:14 am

Sorry, I wasn't implying anything about you personally. It just seems like people assume that sophisticated timecode and special equipment is required for syncing music-video-type production. I'm no genius, but it just seems pretty simple to slide the video clips into place against the master audio track. Music videos are a special case that make this a lot simpler than more conventional types of production.

If you have the equipment available, do the experiment and see how it works. I just think it is simpler than many people assume.


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Ty Ford
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 12:54:18 pm

Steve,

I'm pretty protective about the vibe here, and appreciate your comment. I'm not sure what prompted your comment, but I can assure you in looking carefully at the thread that I don't see any condescension. Perhaps you could be more specific?

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Steve Watkins
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 4:59:34 pm

it was in response to a "it doesn't require a rocket scientist" comment which was retracted with an apology. no problem.

maybe I'm not explaining my situation clearly. I'm trying. II just want my music video to come out well. i have a whole crew donating their time and we've even been lent a Red cam with $50K worth of lenses.

I've been told i need to convert the song (which is a .wav file at 44.1) or syncing will be a big problem.

We're young and ambitious and have no budget for a TC generator or sync jam slate.

I'm trying to put together a DIY plan. I live in LA and work in entertainment and still am having a hard time finding a professional who can help me out.


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Ty Ford
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 5:13:32 pm

Steve,

I've known Richard long enough to know that his use of the phrase was not originated in condescension. I'd have read that as self-deprecating humor, actually. That's an inherent problem with text based communications. However, you do make a good point.

Do you get the drift from Will's post?

I've done stuff here where we played a CD from a CD player over speakers while the act performed in sync to it. Imported the CD in to FCP and everything synced up pretty good.

I don't have a clue as to what might happen to the time base of an audio clip when it's converted to an MP3, though.

Rocket science aside, :) I think you need to to some testing to make yourself comfortable.

Regards,

Ty Ford



Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Steve Watkins
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 5:16:29 pm

thanks Ty. I'll be testing away.


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Richard Crowley
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 27, 2010 at 2:58:45 am

Thanks, Ty. In my defense, a review of the record will show that I did NOT say what Mr. Watkins thinks I said. I said that "it is not rocket surgery" which was meant to imply that it probably isn't as complex as everyone assumes it to be. Mr. Watkins is not the first to come to one of these forums assuming that sophisticated measures are required. I was caught in the same mindset before I tried it.

I have done many productions ("music videos" and otherwise) where I used a master audio track from an eternal recording of some sort. Whether it was the release mix of the song for a music video, or the program transcription from the FOH system at a live event, or the mixdown of a concert from an audio multi-track (like from my Alesis HD24).

I take that audio track as the MASTER for the production, and sync everything else to it. All the cameras are recording "scratch" audio tracks, typically from the on-camera built-in mic (which isn't good for much else).

I then find it quite easy to lay down each video clip into the NLE timeline and slip the video to align its scratch audio track with the master audio track. In come cases, the various clips were from different cameras shooting non-switched multi-cam of a live event. And in some cases (such as a music video) the video clips were different segments that were shot in various places, and maybe not even the entire song, but only a portion of it.
Of course you mute the camera clip audio tracks once the clip has been moved into sync. The camera audio is used ony for sync. Sometimes a camera is in the right place to capture some ambient sound (like audience applause, reaction, etc.) and bits of the camera audio track might be useful in some places.

Once you have heard the song 10-20 times (shooting, editing, etc.) it is pretty easy to locate the section of the song that correlates with the video, even without timecode. And those places in the music that are ambiguous (exact repeats of the chorus, etc.) give you the option of using the video in ANY of those places, regardless of what any timecode may say.

Maybe it is just because I am musician as well as an audio and video producer that I find this pretty easy to do without any kind of timecode, or even slate and clap-sticks for sync.

Of course, this all asumes that one has already confirmed that they can take a master audio clip and successfully lay it into their NLE with whatever format and/or samplerate conversion is necessary. And then they they can take the video from the camera(s) and do the same. But this is a more fundamental prerequisite that has nothing to do with shooting a music video, or with using timecode.

I really encourage people to try it before assuming that they need sophisticated equipment and procedures to keep video in sync with pre-recorded audio. Remember that every time a video transistion is introduced to the edit is another place where you can "pull up" the video sync if necessary.


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Ty Ford
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 27, 2010 at 3:20:34 am

Richard,

As always, you are a wonderful resource for the Cow. Now about this surgery I'm thinking about...:)

Regards,

Ty

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Paul Abrahams
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Sep 23, 2012 at 1:35:53 am

Glad I found your post I was having Kittens trying to figure out all the mumbo jumbo on shooting music video. Syncing by sight or ear is the way to go, being a musician syncing tracks for me is easy. A bit scary for the uninitiated I suppose.

One thing I have trouble finding in my research is Mobile Audio playback. I'm looking at using a Ghetto Blaster (I think thats what they called them) under battery power for following glidecam shots. Hopefully enough spill will be picked up by the camera mic, if not I may have to attach a long cable and not trip over it.... LOL.

As far as cueing up the audio on the shoot, I'm going to cut up the song in sections with lead in and tail out to match planned shots. Probably better than skipping through the whole song trying to find sections by ear. I'll also be attempting some slo-mo, double tempo and timelapse pretty ambitious for my first one. If all goes well I'll blog about it for other noobs.

Richard, have you ever done any Music Videos for a band called 'The Reels' or were you involved with countdown or hey hey or any TV stations?

cheers


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Steve Watkins
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 25, 2010 at 5:01:02 pm

thanks for the clarification. going to try as many tests as we can at the pre-light.


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Bouke Vahl
Re: Red cam music video shoot: creating playback mov for video iPod
on Feb 27, 2010 at 1:23:20 pm

Guys,

This is all so easy if you use this:

http://www.videotoolshed.com/product/38/digital-clapper-board

Either record the LTC on the cams audio track, or lock the Red's LTC input to it.
(I would do both, audio as a backup, since i've heard horror stories about RED locking...)

hth


Bouke

http://www.videotoolshed.com/
smart tools for video pro's


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