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Wireless from a mixer to the camera

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Allen Zagel
Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 14, 2009 at 2:33:44 pm

Hi

Hi Ty. Haven't chatted in a while!

Anyway I know about the wireless lavs. I have one. But I'm going to be shooting some music videos for a band and was wondering if I could come out of their mixer and go wireless into the camera? It will be my new Panasonic HPX-170 that I'm waiting for delivery.

That way I wouldn't have a bunch of cables to drag when I move around.

Problem is I don't know what to Google for.

I probably wouldn't be more than 20 feet or so from the stage. Would this idea work?

Thanks for any suggestions.
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Rob Neidig
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 14, 2009 at 11:23:26 pm

Hi Allen,

I'm not Ty, but I'll throw my $.02 out there. You can do this with just about any of the wireless systems. We do this all the time with two of the Sennheiser EW100 G2 transmitter/receiver set ups that have become so popular. They come with a cable to connect the line level out from the mixer into the transmitter. You may also need to change the sensitivity on the transmitter if you're sending line level instead of mic level from a lavalier. You also need to find a way to mount the receivers on your camera so you're not tied down or that sort of defeats the purpose of going wireless. The other caveat is that the camera op then really needs to monitor audio because you've introduced a possible problem area with dropouts in the audio from the mixer to the camera. With good line-of-sight and not too much distance it can work quite well, but with wireless there is always the possibility of interference or dropout. Of course with Blackberry's and the like, now even with wired setups you can get interference. Oh well...

Have fun!

Rob


Rob Neidig
R&R Media Productions
Eugene, Oregon


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Allen Zagel
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 1:35:21 am

Hi Rob
Oh! that quip to Ty was just a hello. I've known him a long time. Thanks for your reply. Blackberry interference? HA! I'm certified for Legal Deposition so I know all about those ha ha.

Anyway Possible drop-outs was one of my thoughts/concerns. I suppose I'm better off just hooking up my Marantz PDM 660 to the mixer and recording PCM out that way. I'm considering replacing the Marantz with something that records to SD/SDHC cards and not as much in the menu area anyway. Or just booming my Rhode NT'3's around the stage and still going with the digital recorder on stage.

Problem was I didn't want to string cables down the dance floor. Don't think I'm going to shoot it with my DSR-250 anyway as I got a Panny HPX-170 coming. I just needed to get good audio of the music and the wireless thing was a suggestion by the producer friend of mine.

I plan to have the main camera sort of fixed either on a tripod or small crane and a small HD hand-held walking around for close-ups.

So I guess the best way would be the digital audio recorder right on-stage then? Just have to monitor the CF card. I won't record MP3. too hard to match to the video due to the minute lossness of MP3. I prefer just to go PCM out.

Thanks for the help
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Rob Neidig
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 2:05:14 am

Allen,

I'm a CLVS, too, so the Blackberry issue rears its ugly head WAY too often in depos!!

I also have the Marantz 660 and I think that's a good idea to use it. I've done similar with good results. The wireless feed from mixer works, too. Like I say, you just need to be aware of dropout/interference issues. Particularly if you're in the fixed/lock down position where you can clip the receivers to your tripod or hang them off the battery boxes on the camera. I hear you (pun intended) on not having cables streatched all over creation! Sounds like you've got a handle on the situation.

Have fun!

Rob


Rob Neidig
R&R Media Productions
Eugene, Oregon


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Allen Zagel
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 2:51:34 am

Hi again Rob

Yes the receiving camera would be locked down on the tripod. But also is the issue of cost for a wireless system that would just plug into their mixer. I have an older Azden 100UPR which may not be legal after they (FCC) changes the frequencies. But that has only 1/8 mini plugs and is for a Lav.

What would I look (Google) for on a transmitter with XLR line in?

Thanks
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Brian Reynolds
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 7:13:44 am

I doubt if you will find any radio mic transmiters with XLR inputs.
Possibly the best way to go is have an adaptor cable made (XLR female to whatever the input of the transmitter) this way you can use them for all sorts of uses. You will have to lower the level into the transmitter if using line level, either via a pad or some transmitters have internal gain and or mic/line adjustments.
I have several Tx units not on recognised radio mic frequencies but never had a problem (as yet) as most times you are at that location for a short time. Fixed installs might be a different story.


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Allen Zagel
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 11:40:34 am

Hi Brian

Thanks for your information. I'll probably just go with my PDM-660 on stage then.

Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Tom Maloney
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 11:51:41 am

Hi, I have used a lectro system to get from my SD 302 to camera. Trew audio carrys the correct cables for getting XLR from the output of the mixer into the lectro transmitter. With my setup I can either send mic or line. Really have to put the entire weight of monitoring levels to the cam op. Hope this helps

Later
Tom


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Allen Zagel
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 12:51:22 pm

Hi Tom

Thanks for the info. I'll check out that Lectro system and Trew Audio.

Oh well? as I wouldn't have enough to do watching the camera, nNovia hard drive recorder and now the Audio. But you got to always monitor the audio anyway. Already have a set of Sony studio monitor headphones from my deposition work.

Thanks Again
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Alan Lloyd
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 2:33:24 pm

The "brick" TX units that are meant for the end of a stick mic have XLR ins. Either dial your level way down or put a pad inline on a short XLR jumper and you're there.

I've done this.

The only other advice I can give it this: Test, test, test.


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Ty Ford
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 3:10:24 pm

Hi Brian, et al

Most manufacturers have plug on transmitters designed to be plugged into mics. You'd have to be sure to have a non-changing mic level feed, or a line to mic level pad.

I would use short cables to get the transmitters away from the console and possibly up in the air so the space between the transmitter and receiver is unobstructed.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Ty Ford
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 15, 2009 at 3:14:04 pm

Hi Allen,

Wireless from the board to your camera. Sure that's possible. Here are thoughts:

1. You do need to make sure you have the mic or line setting correct at the transmitter. I'm pretty sure you know that, but other who read this might not. Audio mixers have many output holes to connect to other things. I have been at shoots where I was told "It's a line output." and it wasn't, or somewhere in the gains structure of the console the level of the signal was somewhere between the two.

2. Some outputs change when the board op moves a fader. That's bad because when that happens your levels also change. You want Pre Fader Outs that don't change. Some low level mixers don't have this capability.

3. A board feed, by itself, with no room mics, will sound incomplete. That's because drums and amps create sound that's heard by the audience in addition to the mix created by the board op that you hear through the PA.

4. Some on camera mics can not be attenuated low enough to prevent overloading at the camera. This is a side thought, but one way to "fix" the incomplete board feed is by adding time-corrected camera mic audio. "Time-corrected" because the sound moves at 1 millisecond/foot. The camera audio will be behind the board audio by however many feet (seconds) the camera is from the PA. Unless you resolve this timing issue, when you add the two, there will be phase cancellation that will make the mix sound pretty weird.

When you see live performances on DVD, the "professional ones" are the result of recording all band channels plus a number of room mics. That multitrack recording is then mixed and delivered as a stereo or 5.1 master that's mated with the edited video. There's a LOT going on.

Regards,

Ty Ford


Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Allen Zagel
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 16, 2009 at 4:07:34 pm

Hi
I appreciate all the information. I loked at that Lectro system and right now it's way out of my proce range having just purchased the new Panasonic HPX-170 camera.

I got enough info now to research this.

Thanks again
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Brian Walker
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 16, 2009 at 7:08:18 pm

I have used a Zaxcom for a couple of years without fail.. Zaxcom'sstereo wireless system transmits two channels of audio using only one transmitter and one receiver It also records the audio at the transmitter, just in case the wireless feed goes bad.. Good Luck!
Brian

here is a link:
http://www.theultimatewireless.com/stereo_wireless.htm



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Allen Zagel
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 16, 2009 at 11:09:36 pm

Hi Brian

Oh! Cool. would you beliweve there's one for sale at eBay?

Is this the system you were mentioning?

Item number: 190288542701

I notice there's quite a few on Zaxcom's site.

thanks
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Brian Walker
Re: Wireless from a mixer to the camera
on Mar 22, 2009 at 12:26:15 am

That was the older unit, but yes, that is the system! I bought the newer version with the stereo adapter/recorder option.. Love it(except the cables should be at a right angle and not sticking straight out! Oh well...





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