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-10 to -20 ?

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Robin Probyn
-10 to -20 ?
on Oct 1, 2008 at 9:14:14 am

Hi there

To go from -10 consumer line to -20 consumer mic... is there an XLR pad to do this?

Thanks



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Ty Ford
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 1, 2008 at 12:07:23 pm

Robin,

You have a -10 signal on an XLR? That's unusual.

I don't think there is a consumer mic level that's different from pro mic level.

Can you be more specific as to what you're trying to do?

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 1, 2008 at 3:05:29 pm

Hi there

Yes what am I trying to do.. good question!

I have -10 out from a mini jack tape out on the mixer... I have to go from this to a mic level XLR in put..
on this transcription cable I have.Its a Y cable BNC TC padded 50.. and mic level XLR going to a 1/3 inch mini plug... the audio side of the Y cable is mic level.

So Iam thinking a need cable that is mini jack 1/3 (mono I guess?) that ends with an XLR.. and somehow has a pad (I though an XLR one) to get the level to -20 mic.. to plug into a MP3 player that has only mic in.I believe its -20 consumer mic ?

Does this make any more sense??

Thanks



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Ty Ford
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 1, 2008 at 4:12:53 pm

I have -10 out from a mini jack tape out on the mixer... I have to go from this to a mic level XLR in put..
on this transcription cable I have.Its a Y cable BNC TC padded 50.. and mic level XLR going to a 1/3 inch mini plug... the audio side of the Y cable is mic level.

>>Is the -10 output from the mixer mono or stereo?
I have never seen a 1/3 inch mini plug. Do you mean 1/8"?

So Iam thinking a need cable that is mini jack 1/3 (mono I guess?) that ends with an XLR.. and somehow has a pad (I though an XLR one) to get the level to -20 mic.. to plug into a MP3 player that has only mic in.I believe its -20 consumer mic ?

Does this make any more sense?

mic level is usually around -50.

It does make more sense, but I'm still lost. My bad comprehension skills. You are trying to record on an MP3 recorder? (Sorry, but you call it a player.)

It sounds to me like you have "The Perfect Storm" of connection problems. They would be pretty much solved if you had an mp3 recorder that had -10 consumer inputs. I'm a little surprised this one doesn't have that, but there a lot of consumer gear out there I've never seen.

I'm concerned that any cure you find for this particular collection of gear may be worse than the disease.


Regards,

Ty Ford




Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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David Jones
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 1, 2008 at 5:40:31 pm

Hi Robin-

I think if you told us the make/model of the gear you're trying to connect from and to, it might be easier to recommend the right cables.

Dave


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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 1:35:14 am

Dear Sir

Its a transcription cable made by Trew Audio... for recording camera TC and audio to an MP3 player..

Its a Y cable ..one leg being BNC (for TC) which has a built in pad of 50db to bring it down to consumer mic level,and the other leg of the cable is a mic level female XLR.. both legs go to a 1/8th (sorry not 1/3)
stereo mini jack,to be connected to the MP3 recorder.

The only problem I seem to have with this cable is that my 1/8 inch mono mini jack tape out from the mixer(Japanese Sigma SS302) sold as Kame brand in the US.. is -10 consumer line level.

My current MP3 player has only mic in... I,ve used it for just audio from the mixer tape out mini jacks to record audio.. and although the sound is not great.. its ok for transcription .. no complaints about it.
So I could just use the cable as it is,as the TC signal is padded down to mic level already in the cable.
But I,d really like to get better audio so I just need to get the -10 down to what ever the mic level is into this consumer MP3 recorder.. which I,ve been told is usually -20 ?

I want to use this cable as its small and easy.. dont want to fussing with 2 cables.. separate levels etc..
So I could get another MP3 recorder with line in.. in which case the audio will be fine.. but was told the 50 db padded TC level would be way too low.

I have already bought the cable,and it does seem the best way to go.. I thought it would be as easy as putting in an XLR pad onto the female XLR audio leg of the Y cable.. But I do need a cable that would be mono mini jack out(from the mixer) to XLR (to join the XLR on the audio leg of this Y cable.

Does such a cable exist? am I totally wrong?

Thanks again.. and nice guitar by the way



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Ty Ford
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 3:49:34 am

Dear Robin,

Thanks for the note on my musicality.

Trew makes all sorts of adapters. I don't know if that particular adapter exists. Call Trew in the morning and explain your predicament. If one exists, someone at Trew may know of it.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 4:34:40 am

Yes I had done that..

some one there said padding the -10 to mic level should work.. I got an XLR pad today -40 db.. which should get the -10 to -50... is that correct?...

And a stereo min 1/8 inch to XLR cable... couldnt find a mono mini to XLR.. will that matter?

Thanks



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Ty Ford
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 4:44:14 am

You said:
some one there said padding the -10 to mic level should work.. I got an XLR pad today -40 db.. which should get the -10 to -50... is that correct?...

>>Sounds right.

And a stereo min 1/8 inch to XLR cable... couldnt find a mono mini to XLR.. will that matter?

>>to go where?

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 4:54:07 am

sorry ..... no details no results..

The mini jack 1/8th stereo plug is from the mono (I,ve been told) tape out jack from the mixer.. Iam wondering if it being a Stereo mini plug instead of Mono mini plug will have any bearing.

There are two tape outs on the mixer

1 A channel

2 A+B channels

This then joins the XLR audio leg of the Y cable..

Thanks again sir





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Ty Ford
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 12:14:34 pm

yes, it definitely would have bearing.

Regards,

Ty

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 12:26:07 pm

What would it be?

Thanks



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Ty Ford
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 1:07:13 pm

the wrong cable would not work.

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 1:13:31 pm

What will happen to the audio if a stereo mini plug is used in a mono out socket??

Thanks again






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Ty Ford
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 1:36:31 pm

I don't know. Try both and make a contribution to our knowledge.

Regards,

Ty Ford



Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 1:41:48 pm

Ive used a stereo mini cable out out before it worked at least.. the sound wasnt great .. but I think that was because it was line to mic level.. so I guess it will work.. give it a try tomorrow.. but Iam feeling positive vibes... or that could be the wine..



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Rodney Morris
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 2, 2008 at 3:13:50 pm

Assuming your mixer tape output is mono, then you need a mono male 1/8" to male XLR cable to go from your mixer to your Trew audio adapter Y cable. Insert the line to mic pad adapter between the aforementioned cables/adapters. This will work.

Rodney

Freelance Sound Technician/Mixer


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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 3, 2008 at 1:54:22 am

Did a test recording to Olympus voice trek V-41... not as fancy as the LS-10..

1 Audio only was fine with the -40 padding... (tape out is -10) if anything maybe padded too much.. but way better than the -10 straight into the same recorder.. mic level..

2 Time code was very load... hard to tell on very rudimentary levels I can see from the recorder,and playing back on quicktime from computer.. I cant separate the channels.. but the cable has a built in- 50 db pad.. so I guess its ok.. I dont have a TC reader or anything so not sure how to test 100% that all is fine..

Seemed the stereo 1/8 out from tape out A channel worked fine...?

Thanks again



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Greg Curda
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 3, 2008 at 10:47:42 am

Hi Robin,

What a journey of audio level and connector compatibility you have been on!!! Sound is so simple in its complexity... I think if you stick with the three layer level concept, +4, -10, -50 and apply your math skills you will 99.9% always be OK.

TC recorded on an audio channel likes to sit at -10 to -12 dB VU...at least that's the conventional wisdom...things may have changed, but likely not. It is also an annoying sound. So if you're shipping a
-10 TC level and you're padding 50dB that's -60...not unheard of, but maybe a little low. As long as your synchronizer is happy, that's what counts.

Good input from Ty and Rodney...

G



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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 3, 2008 at 12:45:11 pm

Hi Greg

Yes its been an interesting road.. been asked a few times over the years for this TC/Audio thing,used to be tape,now MP3.So eventually I thought actually there is going to be more of this than less,as the tech improves.. and prod companies realise this is pretty convenient them... although an added burden,hassle for us in the field.. to be honest..

I bought a purpose built cable for transcription.. audio mic level.. which I believe I have now,and TC with -50 db built in... all based on a mic level input.. so I guess Iam safe.. audio only certainly is fine.. a bit low if anything... but Iam told anyway its a bit of a balancing act with the TC also..

I guess until I actually have a job for it I wont know for sure... but in theory I think Iam within the limits..???? I padded the audio.. but the TC side of the cable is meant to be already set to go.... with the -50 pad.. down to mic level.. so if it doesnt work I,d be pissed off.. :) unfortunately my mixer tape out is -10 and not mic level.. but all I had to do was buy the pad..

Dont know anything about stereo jacks into mono outputs(I was told my mixer mini jack outputs were mono) but the stereo jack seems to work fine?? Iam I missing somthing here?

Thanks



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Greg Curda
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 3, 2008 at 1:11:59 pm

Hi Robin,

You know, the proof is always "how does it sound?' I haven't done the transcription thing for a while, but then it was on cassette (!!!) and no TC. I had a look at your cable, but not the recorder, but I can't imagine why the only input would be mic level. Anyway, sounds like it's sorted.

When talking about connectors, make a clear distinction between jack and plug. Or you can use the terms male and female. It makes discussion easier. I forgot what mixer you have, sometimes the tape out is stereo (TRS), sometimes mono (TR). Try to find out for sure, but for now, as long as it works, you're OK..You might want to lay some test files into a FCP or ProTools session (if you have access), or Soundtrack Pro, to listen and look at the result. Best to make sure you're getting what you think you're getting...

G





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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 3, 2008 at 1:47:30 pm

Hi Greg

I think some/alot of mixers now have mic out mini (female) tape outs.But its not really a big deal if I have to buy a $40 XLR pad down to mic level from my mixers -10 tape outs.

I was told my mixer mini female outs were mono... what happens when a stereo mini male,goes into a female mono ... besides babies ofcourse... it seems to work fine.. but others have implied it wont work.

Thanks






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Greg Curda
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 3, 2008 at 2:18:10 pm

Hi Robin,

I think it depends on the configuration of connections inside the jack as to exactly where they make contact with the plug, and to some extent the wiring configuration (not too many options...). Sometimes a mismatch can work. Other times not. I think you will always get some signal, but couldn't swear to it because I'm tired and not thinking electrically at this point...haha. Traditional wisdom says stick with the same config for both male and female, mono or stereo...makes sense. And to me, traditional wisdom works.

Hope that helps.



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Robin Probyn
Re: -10 to -20 ?
on Oct 5, 2008 at 2:30:01 pm

hi Greg

Ok thanks for your help



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