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Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast

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Eve Brue
Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 22, 2017 at 7:12:21 pm

Hello!

First post here and would to know people's preferred workflow for 23.98 footage going to 29.97i broadcast (when working in Premiere.)

Do you prefer to A) cut native and convert at the end? OR B) edit in 29.97 DF from the start?

And if so why?

I've been doing an informal survey among editor friends (it seems like either if possible) but would love to better understand pros and cons of each option.

I'm inclined to edit in 29.97 DF and then choose upper on my export (upper in the sequence settings seems to create interlacing issues) but I'm wondering if having Premiere do the pulldown in my sequence is the best option for quality.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 22, 2017 at 8:54:06 pm

I sincerely hope you know that 23.98 is just a nickname for the actual frame rate, 23.976. I bet you do.

I for one would cut at 23.976. The reason -- you'd have a pristine master. You can always add the interlacing later. However, if you cut in 29.97 and THEN had to make a 59.94 copy, you'd be in a world of hurt.

CYA! Cut at 23.976, I say!

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Eve Brue
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 22, 2017 at 9:01:00 pm

I do! 😉
(Specs are for 29.97 and specify not to send 59.94. )

So you think export the same as source master and then bring into media encoder to create the 29.97 version?

Thanks!!


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Shane Ross
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 22, 2017 at 9:15:25 pm

Edit 23.98, and export a 23.98 master, and then make a 59.94i master from that.

NOTE!!! 23.98 is drop frame timecode only, so if you have a specific target timecode to get to at 29.97, then you need to calculate that...calculate what you need to edit 23.98 to for it to convert to the right time at 29.97. Avid has a simple timecode viewer tool for this, not sure Premiere has the same thing....I can't see it.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Eve Brue
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 25, 2017 at 12:59:50 pm

Hi

One more question (I can see there is an error in logic in my first post in sequence setting) but for

" Edit 23.98, and export a 23.98 master, and then make a 59.94i master from that."

What do I do when it says don't send 59.94 in the specs?

Thanks!!


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 25, 2017 at 2:50:56 pm

Don't worry. It's just a bit of easily-clarified confusion.

The specs say to deliver an INTERLACED 1920x1080 file at 29.97 fps, correct? The "i" in "59.94i" means "interlaced". Which means 2 fields per frame. Thus, a 29.97 fps file with 2 fields per frame contains 59.94 fields/second.

Had this rate read, "59.94p", it would have meant 59.94 complete frames per second. But it's 59.94i, or 59.94 FIELDS per second.

And when you add 3:2 pulldown to a 23.976 file, you get an interlaced 29.97 file.... aka 59.94i.

Field order is important. in 1920x 1080 footage, the upper field (lines 1,3,5,7,etc.) is displayed first. The lower field (lines 2,4,6,8,etc) is displayed second. Most up-to-date applications just get the field order right automatically. In an older application, you may have to specify field order, in which case you should specify upper field first.

Does that help?

------------------------------------------------------------

Want a little more confusion? Some applications erroneously refer to field order as "field dominance". When you see it, it really refers to field order.

"Field dominance" is real technical term, but it refers to a component in an analog video signal used in analog video switchers to get smooth dissolves and wipes. It has absolutely nothing to do with the order in which the fields in an interlaced video signal are recorded and played back.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Eve Brue
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 25, 2017 at 3:04:15 pm

Ok! I think I understand, thank you!

The specs don't actually say Interlace but I'm just kind of assuming it's interlace for broadcast (but maybe I shouldn't assume?)

I pasted the specs below though they also said I can deliver ProRes422 29.97i (which looks bad on my computer monitor but I'm hoping is okay in my broadcast monitor. Which I'm currently trying to hook up, haha. Freelancing so this isn't my station.)

Video:
Quicktime MOV
Codec: AVID DNXHD 145 or 220 MXF
Size: 1920 x 1080
Frame Rate: 29.97 (please do not send 59.94, it will be automatically rejected by Knoxville)

MXF OP1A
Codec: XDCAM50
Size: 1920 x 1080
Frame Rate 29.97 please do not send 59.94, it will be automatically rejected by Knoxville)

Audio:
Stereo Mix
Format: Linear PCM
Sample Rate: 48kHz
Sample Size: 24 bit, Little Endian


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Shane Ross
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 25, 2017 at 4:51:13 pm

You need to clarify with them...do they want 30FPS...29.97 interlaced. If so, then 59.94i is the proper technical term for it. No one uses 29.97i except perhaps AJA in their settings for FCP 7. The proper name is 59.94i...as the number refers to how many IMAGES per second. Interlaced is two images per frame...30fps...thus 60 images.

Or do they want 29.97p...30p...PROGRESSIVE.

What they have in the above specs doesn't specify interlaced or progressive...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Eve Brue
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 25, 2017 at 7:56:00 pm

Thank you guys both so much - So helpful to have your input when I was under deadline!

(I ended up sending them a Pro Res 422 29.97 Upper and so far so good!)


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 22, 2017 at 10:10:11 pm

[Eve Brue] "(Specs are for 29.97 and specify not to send 59.94. )"

The point is, you never know.
I can hear this in 3 months or so -- "Say, Eve, we'd like to put that show you cut on our web site. We'll need a progressive copy."

With a 24p master, you smile and say, "Why, sure!"

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Eve Brue
Re: Workflow for 23.98 Source to 29.97i for Broadcast
on May 22, 2017 at 11:19:43 pm

@Dave good point!

@Shane, thank you! It's been forever since I've cut in Avid so I'm not too familiar with that workflow. From what I understand about Premiere, most editors either do the pulldown in Premiere itself or use Encoder or Compressor...


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