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Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube

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Jim Elliott
Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 4, 2017 at 1:59:54 am

Well, this is depressing. I don't know if something is wrong with my MacBook 2016, but I've noticed that footage in the Premiere program monitor looks VERY different to the exported video in various platforms, to the extent that I don't even know why I bother color correcting! I took some screenshots of the exact same video (below). This is a H.264 export at 16mbps. I also tried various other exports (quicktime, matched source, prores etc) and got some results.

Premiere is what I want it to look like, and vlc represents this very very well. But Quicktime, Vimeo & Youtube (safari), Preview (Mac) all produce the same gamma shift and desaturation. With Firefox Vimeo going in the opposite direction and looking like the woman's face is on fire. I exported to my iPhone via dropbox and the results were somewhere in between.

THIS IS CRAZY?! I know there isn't a HUGE difference, but its enough to make me not want to bother colouring anything ever again knowing that I have no idea whether it will be played by people on Vimeo/quicktime (way more drained than what I'm editing/seeing in Premiere) or VLC (accurate to Premiere, but...so what)

Has anyone got any pointers? Give up making videos?



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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 4, 2017 at 2:14:33 am

I can't promise this will work for you, but many people have had luck using this LUT I made for youtube.

64 cube iridas lut for burning in darker 16-235 from 0-255 for youtube upload. it darkens image, then youtube re-lightens again.
https://f1.creativecow.net/10598/fixmyyoutube

note:
it doesn't work with adjustment layers directly
you have to use it in the dropdown for the export in adobe media encoder. or you can NEST it first.
its a premiere bug. also it needs to be copied in both premiere-lumetri-technical and adobe media encoder-lumetri-technical


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Robin Frost
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jul 3, 2018 at 11:33:50 am

"I can't promise this will work for you, but many people have had luck using this LUT I made for youtube.

64 cube iridas lut for burning in darker 16-235 from 0-255 for youtube upload. it darkens image, then youtube re-lightens again.
https://f1.creativecow.net/10598/fixmyyoutube"


The trouble with the 'fixmyyoutube' lut is that it blows out whites and crushes blacks, leading to quite a loss in detail. And no, the detail doesn't return when Youtube re-lightens it..

Here's a few examples.. first image is before, second is after..






Just look at that ferris wheel!













And thought this screengrab from a boring 2D animated commercial was a very good example! The grey almost disappears.




It is frustrating as i really want all footage to look the best it can on Youtube, but when compared to the original it always looks washed out. Hopefully there's a way round preserving the detail with this method.


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jul 3, 2018 at 5:59:30 pm

it shouldn't be blowing out whites like that. it doesn't work with adjustment layers directly or lumetri. you have to use it in the dropdown for the export in adobe media encoder. or you can NEST its sequence first. its a premiere bug. also, if you have pure black 0 IRE it can possibly cause issues.

also, there are other ways such as upload a video, click re-touch youtube video, then cancel that. it will encode from vp9 codec on youtube native player. that would be my first choice, or 2nd, a p3 to rec. 709 lut. or rec709 native monitor.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 4, 2017 at 2:50:14 am

I'm going to guess you expect every viewing application to be identical. Well, they're not. So you're just banging your head against a brick wall.

Do you have some specified delivery drstination? Make your stuff look right for it and let the chips fall where they may.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Ken Kaiser
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Sep 8, 2017 at 4:44:17 pm

Spoken like someone in Cable! lol


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 4, 2017 at 7:31:19 am

You need to listen to this: https://soundcloud.com/mixinglight/mail-bag-ep1-part2


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 5, 2017 at 1:13:36 am

I think one of the complicating issues is that I have a brand new MacBook and a brand new monitor, both are p3 wide gamut. Am I better of working with an sRGB color space? There seems to be a lot less difference between, say, quicktime and premiere in sRGB than the same 2 programs with the P3 wide profile


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 5, 2017 at 1:27:19 am

premiere can't color manage. it shows rec.709 in preview, render, and mercury transmit. you can use a p3 to rec. 709 LUT if you wish.
the internet is sRGB or basically rec. 709 0-255 with gamma 2.2. in this way, they are exactly the same. until you use a LUT, I recommend setting your monitor to sRGB. most video players can't play p3 except madvr


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 12:08:24 am

Thanks, setting to sRGB does bump up the saturation of the quicktime/safari/chrome etc family, and brings it closer to the vlc/premiere colours, but I am wary that this is kinda false and that it won't help the fact that this will encourage me to make less saturated videos ... which is the problem for clients.

Im concerned about the new apple displays, mine included. Previous video projects now look very over-saturated in Premiere/VLC/firefox (which look almost exactly the same as eachother), and other players (quicktime, iPhone, iPad, chrome/safari Facebook/vimeo/youtube, Instagram) look comparatively desaturated (all very similar too each other though). This creates a very big problem going forward ... If I colour-correct my videos to look good in Premiere (as before), my videos end up looking washed out on iPhone/chrome/safari/quicktime/instagram... I would have to grossly oversaturate in Premiere (at least thats what it looks like) to get an acceptable video in all those other formats. It's all very depressing.

I didn't have this problem on my 2012 Mac. I have checked on it again recently and although there is maybe a slight difference between premiere/VLC and quicktime/iphone etc ... its like somehow on the new 2016 displays the differences between those groups are exaggerated due to the super-saturated-ness of whatever is making Premiere/VLC/firefox read the videos in that way.

2 days ago I handed a video to a client I have worked with for a long time producing similar videos, and they commented how desaturated and lifeless it looked compared to usual. This has never ever happened before. The video the client complained about was in the pic below, the one with the woman at the bottom. What you see here is a 'corrected' version. In premiere (left) I'm slightly more saturated than I would like, but it resulted in something the client was more happy as they (and all their customers) will watch the video with the players from the middle column (which still looks a bit yellow and anaemic to me. As for Firefox vimeo, compared to chrome/safari Vimeo ... wow, just, wow...



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Shane Ross
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 1:51:30 am

When I color correct a broadcast show, I use my calibrated broadcast monitor. That way I know it's the best that it can get. You are making the best that you can get. HOW OTHER APPS PLAY THAT BACK IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL! Just like how various broadcast outlets like DirecTV and Comcast and Time Warner compress it for delivery is out of my control. And how people's TVs at home are set up are out of my control.

I recently onlined and graded a show for a network...2 hour doc. When it aired, the executive producer called me and the producer in a panic. "WHY IS THE SHOW SQUISHED AND CUT OFF!?!?!" The producer was watching it on DirecTV, and I ran to turn it on Time Warner. It looked fine. We asked him what he was talking about. He sent a screen shot. Sure enough, the 16:9 output we delivered was SQUEEZED to be letterboxed for no apparent reason on his TV. We couldn't figure this out. Now, it wasn't the CHANNEL that did what he saw, it was his cable providor....because we saw it fine. THE PROVIDOR DID THIS. No clue as to why.

But the point is, that you have control up to a point...and all you can do it make it look good when you deliver. How various players play that back, how it's compressed by YouTube or Vimeo, or Apple...is out of your hands.

I will say that I like the way QT plays it...she was a tad to orange for me...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 2:28:31 am

you could trick this lut generator with a png shown in safari, screenshot it and use it for the "modified" png. should interpolate the lut transform.

https://generator.iwltbap.com/


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 2:57:07 am

My current thinking is that I will replace my LG ultrafine monitor (P3) with an sRGB monitor. That way, hopefully I won't get massively over-saturated videos as there won't be such a need for colour management


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 3:03:15 am

here's a p3 to rec. 709 lut i made. some people say it helps.

https://f1.creativecow.net/9882/p3-to-rec-709-x64-iridas-cube


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 3:04:37 am

Thanks! What exactly does this do again? And how to apply?


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 3:06:27 am

premiere's lumetri can load luts. some mac users with p3 monitors say it helps.


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chris pike
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 1, 2018 at 4:59:26 am

> here's a p3 to rec. 709 lut i made

Hello Chris, I'm new to video. I was wondering if you could take a moment to explain how I would implement this lut, to somebody who has no background knowledge of what a lut is. Thanks.


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 1, 2018 at 6:00:52 am

you would need to explain what your issue is in more detail. do you have a P3 monitor or sRGB?
p3 to srgb is for converting a P3 calibrated monitor into premiere's native sRGB environment.

the 'fixmyyoutube' lut is for burning in a darker image because youtube will lighten the image when processing.
both would be applied in premiere's effect lumetri under the lut load button. a lut is a look up table. you can read about
them online in more detail.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 6, 2017 at 8:34:40 am

[Jim Elliott] "My current thinking is that I will replace my LG ultrafine monitor (P3) with an sRGB monitor. That way, hopefully I won't get massively over-saturated videos as there won't be such a need for colour management"

If you really want to see how it looks you'll need a reference monitor that can be calibrated to a standard (rec709/srgb in this case) and an I/O device that will output a clean uncompressed signal from Premiere to that monitor. The Blackmagic Design Mini Monitor would be the minimum requirement. Anything other than that and it's a crapshoot and like Shane said when it leaves your color chain it's out of your hands.

http://www.lightillusion.com/why_calibrate.html


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Brian Mac
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 11, 2017 at 12:36:03 am

I, too, am now suddenly witnessing these problems. In nearly all of my exports (H.264 and ProRes - the codec doesn't matter), Quicktime and YouTube have a disgustingly different, less-saturated and more "washed out" look than what is displayed in Premiere and VLC. I am working on an iMac 5K monitor. I've read this thread and I'm still confused as of what to do to solve this issue. VLC is identical (if not, pretty darn close) to what my Premiere timeline and export preview shows. As soon as I upload my export to YouTube or view it in Quicktime, however, I get that desaturated washed out look during playback. This washed out look on YouTube and in Quicktime is the same on YouTube on my MacBook, iPhone, and iMac. This leads me to believe that my Premiere timeline and export preview is not true to what the export actually looks like. What trips me up, however, is how VLC looks the same as my Premiere timeline. Is there a setting within Premiere to fix this so my timeline is true to what the export will look like? Using a .LUT to compensate for lost saturation/contrast cannot be the only solution. Thank you in advance!


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Brian Mac
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 11, 2017 at 3:26:29 am

EDIT/UPDATE: After looking into this for the past three hours, this is almost certainly an issue with a wide gamut display and Premiere Pro. It is my understanding that Premiere Pro does not have any color management options and, as such, operates in the sRGB color space. As is a common issue when displaying the sRGB color space on a P3/wide gamut display like my iMac has, colors will be oversaturated. Within Premiere, color grading looks great but the video export is actually undersaturated because we are compensating for that oversaturation (as a result of the sRGB/P3 discrepancy). It seems as though the only fix right now is to color grade on a sRGB monitor or keep yelling at Adobe to enable color management options within Premiere Pro so that Premiere Pro can actually operate in the P3 color space and not completely skew what the export videos will actually look like.


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 11, 2017 at 8:44:43 am

You are spot on, unfortunately. Final Cut has now got 'wide gamut support' meaning you can choose wide gamut or standard footage (will almost always be standard). I selected standard and the footage looks fine.

The problem IS premiere/Vlc on a wide gamut display

It's incredible more people haven't noticed and are aware of this issue as there is such a huge difference. I downloaded a trial of fcpx and there is becoming more and more reasons to fully migrate.

Any suggestions on how to shout at Adobe, surely they realise people are more likely to switch to final cut than buy an older mac (all macs post-2015 are wide gamut and impossible to grade in premiere)


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Alex Simpson
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Apr 25, 2017 at 5:58:20 pm

Hi Brian,

Just wondering what you finally decided on doing with this dilemma, i've just treated myself to a new 5k late-2015 imac and BOOM, bad exports. So depressing like you say!!

Is buying an sRGB monitor the answer? Will this work for us?

And yes, we need to email Adobe about this!

Many thanks,
Alex



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Stu Lockley
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jun 10, 2017 at 12:14:03 pm

I too have the same problem on my 5K imac. However I think I have resolved the issue, although the solution is not the best with out a using another NLE.

IF you open premiere, your export in QT and VLC, even youtube, make all 4 windows visible. Then open your colour profile window in system prefs and start flicking through the different profiles (apple rgb, rec 709 etc). You will see QT and youtube change their look inline with the profiles. however Premiere and VLC do not change a bit, they flash the profile and then revert back some kind of default.


Now do the same process with davinci resolve, as you flick through the profiles, resolve will change in line with qt & youtube. (note, i had to click on the resolve app before the profile updated).

This shows that now matter how you have calibrated your 5k imac monitor, premiere ignores it. So you are never grading to any colour standard. Do the same in resolve and the results match.

This is very bad for my projects as I can't colour grade in davinci due to the level the projects are at with AE worked linked between the apps.
https://vimeo.com/221050047


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Stu Lockley
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jun 13, 2017 at 2:58:10 am

Was sent this answer


premiere isn't color managed. it will ignore any display calibration unless its the native rec. 709 0-255 and that's because your "calibration" will match premiere's internal color engine interpretation similar to AE's pass-through if view-simulate turned off.
premiere won't understand P3 but there is a workaround. you can use LUT transforms to match your monitor's P3 color profile then load them into lumetri technical.

P3 to Rec. 709 x64 iridas cube
CreativeCOW

or you can make your own transform lut with
https://sellfy.com/p/aQ1y/
or with
DisplayCAL (formerly known as dispcalGUI)—Open Source Display Calibration and Characterization powered by ArgyllCMS


fixmyyoutube
64 cube iridas lut for burning in darker 16-235 from 0-255 for youtube upload. it darkens image, then youtube re-lightens again.
fixmyyoutube - Creative COW


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Crescent Diamond
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 30, 2017 at 1:20:11 am

I'm having this problem as well on my iMac Retina 5K display with Premiere Pro 17.1.2 and latest After Effects. I'm wondering if anyone has any updates from Adobe on this? Our end product is usually on YouTube, Facebook or screening at an event. VLC looks like Premiere but QuickTime looks desaturated in a major way. I guess the work around is a LUT - maybe one for YouTube and one for QuickTime (playback at an event)?

How can this be so complicated?

Thanks, Crescent D.


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Shane Ross
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 30, 2017 at 1:48:57 am

[Crescent Diamond] " I'm wondering if anyone has any updates from Adobe on this? "

It's not an Adobe issue, it's an issue with the various players and web browsers and websites.

[Crescent Diamond] "VLC looks like Premiere but QuickTime looks desaturated in a major way. I guess the work around is a LUT - maybe one for YouTube and one for QuickTime (playback at an event)?"

YouTube on Safari will look different than YouTube on Firefox, and Chrome. And they will look different than QT Player, which looks different than VLC. And then people's monitors connected to their computers are all calibrated differently, and will display the image differently. These are things you cannot control. Just like you cannot control how people have their monitors set up, or what browser they use.

Go to Best Buy and look at all the TVs...computer monitors. They all show the same video slightly different. There is nothing you can do about that. Make it look good on a properly calibrated monitor, but once you let it out into the wild, there's nothing you can do.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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greg janza
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 30, 2017 at 4:28:54 am

I second Shane's thoughts. There's no problem within Premiere and there's also no need to check videos on a variety of playback devices because they will all be different.

The only place that you have control is with the originating master file. By calibrating your monitor with a calibration tool like x-rite's i1 you can be confident that you are creating the best product possible.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 30, 2017 at 6:20:22 am

For the record, it's definitely a problem with premiere. Video is essentially in sRGB (rec709), and a wide gamut monitor (in program like premiere that has no colour management) will stretch the colours and make them appear more saturated than what you are exporting. FCPX, lightroom, photoshop etc don't have this problem because you can say to the program 'this is an sRGB/rec709 file' so it renders the colours appropriately. In Premiere there is no colour management... you could even change the display profile and recalibrate your screen and it wouldn't change the image in the program monitor - try it - load up a project and switch to a massively different display profile....the image doesn't even change


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 30, 2017 at 6:27:17 am

[Jim Elliott] "wide gamut monitor"

This is why one would need to calibrate their display(s) according to what one is delivering. I have a reference monitor that has a wide gamut and I use a calibration LUT to limit that to the specification I need. A failure in viewing conditions or choosing a monitor that can't be set up accordingly is a user error not a Premiere error.


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 30, 2017 at 6:35:44 am

As a workaround, when I come to export my video I put a layer of colorista over the top, with saturation at 7.50 and a tiny bit more crushed blacks. At this point it looks a little too saturated/crushed in the program monitor - but the result is the file that is exported and then played on Vimeo, YouTube, iPhone, QuickTime, preview, PowerPoint presentations, Dropbox, safari, chrome is pretty much exactly what I was viewing in Premiere when I was editing. Only problem is now when you play the exported video in a non-colour managed program (vlc/Premiere...I think maybe Firefox) it looks a little oversaturated. If vlc was the only medium the final video was played, I wouldn't put the colorista layer on.

It IS a problem, one that FCPX have addressed recently by asking at the start of a project if you are working with a wide-gamut monitor, and one that Adobe saidi they were looking at when I raised it to them recently. What doesn't help is people saying it isn't a problem because they don't realise what is happening

for anyone who wants to edit what you want in Premiere only for it to look drained in QuickTime/YouTube/Vimeo/iPhone etc then good luck 👍🏻👍🏻


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 30, 2017 at 6:49:59 am

Either you have a properly calibrated color pipeline or all the colours will be wrong. Slapping on some random Colorista value that "looks pretty close" instead of trying to make your monitor match isn't really the way, but hey, you do what you do. If your monitor has any manual settings you can change and you have a supported calibration probe you could check out how close you are with the free Lightspace DPS over here https://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_dps.html

There's also a manual display calibration guide using said software: https://www.lightillusion.com/manual_calibration_idiots_guide.html


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hakan ahmet
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Oct 25, 2017 at 3:36:04 pm

Is it recommended to put the P3 to Rec709 lut above or below your grade on the time line? (both in separate adjustment layers). You get a slightly different look either way.. which is better practice?

Many thanks


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hakan ahmet
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Oct 5, 2017 at 1:57:58 pm

Is it recommended to put the P3 to Rec709 lut above or below your grade on the time line? (both in seperate adjustment layers). You get a slightly different look either way.. which is better practice?

Many thanks


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Chris Wright
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Oct 28, 2017 at 7:41:12 am

in my experience, conforming the lut first gives easier grades. one way will give a log feel and the other a linear feel.


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andy patterson
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jun 13, 2017 at 6:47:46 am

[Tero Ahlfors] "You need to listen to this: https://soundcloud.com/mixinglight/mail-bag-ep1-part2"

I like the part about grandma's TV. I like using and Intensity Shuttle and having an old SD CRT monitor for references as shown in the video below. Not that that help with the differences between YouTube, Quicktime, Media Player etc.


[Shane Ross] "I recently onlined and graded a show for a network...2 hour doc. When it aired, the executive producer called me and the producer in a panic. "WHY IS THE SHOW SQUISHED AND CUT OFF!?!?!" The producer was watching it on DirecTV, and I ran to turn it on Time Warner. It looked fine. We asked him what he was talking about. He sent a screen shot. Sure enough, the 16:9 output we delivered was SQUEEZED to be letterboxed for no apparent reason on his TV. We couldn't figure this out. Now, it wasn't the CHANNEL that did what he saw, it was his cable providor....because we saw it fine. THE PROVIDOR DID THIS. No clue as to why."

Was it the provider or was it the zoom and aspect ration of the clients TV setup wrong? I know a lot of people cannot setup their HD TV's to play old SD TV shows without stretching and squeezing the image but it can be done. The video below might be worth watching at about 10 minutes in. Blu-ray players have all the same options. I see so many people miss match the settings.







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Bret Hampton
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Sep 7, 2017 at 7:26:53 pm

Shane Ross is totally correct about this.

I would think almost no one here has a calibrated BROADCAST monitor. If you did you'd understand network/cable delivery standards and what video should look like. Plus how things get screwed up down the chain (cable providers mistakes, home viewers setting up their sets too bright, etc.) My brother loves the brightness and saturation cranked way up. I just tolerate it since if I 'fix' it for him he'll just change it back.

As for the squished 16x9 producer's problem.
Years ago I used to receive standard def master videos from one of the most famous cable networks and the labels would often say 16x9 when it fact they were 4x3 letterbox. Other times they'd be 4x3 center cut (sides cut off). Our delivery standards always said 16x9 only. People screw up sometimes. My guess is the producer's cable provider had some inexperienced operator who didn't understand the settings of his encoder and sent it out wrong.

At trade shows like NAB you can see all kinds of Broadcast monitors from Sony, Panasonic and others. They aren't cheap. They exist for a reason, to know your stuff looks right.


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Alan Okey
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Sep 8, 2017 at 5:47:49 pm
Last Edited By Alan Okey on Sep 8, 2017 at 6:39:56 pm

[Bret Hampton] "I would think almost no one here has a calibrated BROADCAST monitor. If you did you'd understand network/cable delivery standards and what video should look like."

Ditto for using/understanding video scopes. Scopes can tell you as much as or more about an image than your eyes. I'm amazed how many editors can't read or won't use scopes.


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greg janza
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Sep 8, 2017 at 9:12:08 pm

[Alan Okey] "I'm amazed how many editors can't read or won't use scopes."

Editors who have never worked in television or cable tv might never have had the training on how to properly use scopes.

But even if you don't know scopes, If you are a professional editor delivering product to clients you need to calibrate your main edit monitor so that you can have the confidence that you're delivering a solid color accurate product. A calibration tool like xrite's i1 pro should be part of any edit suite set up.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Crescent Diamond
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Sep 8, 2017 at 6:56:44 pm

I don't have a broadcast monitor (I know what that is, and I know how to use scopes) but we are also not editing for broadcast - it is for the web and occasionally screening with a projector. These posts are extremely condescending, but what else is new.

Thanks, Crescent D.


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hakan ahmet
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Sep 14, 2017 at 3:39:02 pm

Hi All,

I'm totally in agreeance with those that say calibrating the iMac screen makes no difference, as premier just ignores it.

So, would connecting an external Srgb calibrated monitor to colour grade with do the trick? When people in this feed keep saying "calibrate your screen correctly"...can i assume they mean the external monitor and not the iMac screen itself?

Hakan


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Sep 14, 2017 at 8:18:32 pm

I doubt a simple external monitor will do the trick! You need a broadcast monitor, and you need a video card for it. Then you calibrate the monitor.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Bret Hampton
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Sep 14, 2017 at 10:00:37 pm

Agree with Dave and Shane

I've always used an external monitor attached to a video card designed for this purposed. Only way to see properly.
I use AJA Kona card, however Blackmagic Decklink is also commonly used. They're pricey but often good deals on ebay.

Then you can stop worrying at get back to editing. Watching your video in Premiere's window is an exercise in frustration, same for all NLEs.


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Nov 3, 2017 at 4:48:05 am

HI THERE, ORIGINAL POSTER HERE... I get notifications every now and then on this thread and am surprised at the pompous uninformed comments. Let me tell you with 100% certainty that this has NOTHING to do with h264 exports (or any export settings), NOTHING to do with Vimeo or YouTube washing things out etc etc. NOTHING to do with calibrating a monitor - it *can* be helped having a proper sRGB monitor, but seeing as 1) I have an sRGB monitor and it doesn't help much and 2) this issue does not exist in FCP- THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH PREMIERE. The problem is people are too stubborn or just not observant enough to notice and kick up a fuss so they fix it,

This has everything to do with with the complete absence of colour space/colour profile (ie sRGB) management in Premiere (and VLC). It’s a long story, but essentially video is generally rec709 colour space, this is the same as sRGB. Now the problem is Premiere isn’t colour space compatible (mental, as photoshop, after effects, fcp all are) - this means if you have a wide gamut monitor (to be fair even most sRGB monitors are slightly different to proper sRGB) then Premiere will essentially take the colour values and distort them, making them MORE saturated to the eye. Eg let’s say a pixel is r245, b0, g0 (think of it as 95% red) in original rec709/sRGB world - if you have a wide gamut monitor that red colour will be mapped as r245 in a WIDER GAMUT (so 95% of a larger gamut) effectively stretching the colours to something more saturated (could be equivalent of r255 or '100/101% red' in sRGB). So this means what you are seeing in your Premiere program monitor on your screen is fundamentally INACCURATE by quite a long way sometimes, and it’s the same for most people (especially with an expensive wide gamut Apple monitor) and it’s absolutely insane this isn’t a wider known fact. When you export to QuickTime/h264/prores etc etc and watch in Vimeo/iPhone/youtube/quicktime (anything that has proper colour space management) it will seem drained - truth is you were just watching it in Premiere at an over saturated level!

To test this, try 1) watching any video you’ve already made on Vimeo/QuickTime/iPhone - then pop it into Premiere or VLC - the colours will bump up and the video will look OVERsaturated 2) Load the same video into fcpx (if you have it) and it will be fine, no saturation bump / contrast drain at all (I think it even asks you colour space at start of project - like after affects, but premiere doesn't). 3) Load the video in Premiere and also, QuickTime/vimeo then change the display profile on your computer (I use a Mac) - the QuickTime/vimeo one will change with the rest of the screen, Premiere will stay the same regardless - hence proving it bypasses all display profile (and therefore sRGB) interpretation - its just taking the pixel values that were in original made in rec709/sRGB and reading them from a wide gamut (lets say P3) perspective. The solution (apart from Premiere being less shit) - I use a layer or Colorista with very slight and specific adjustments to contrast and saturation just before export. When I pop that later in it looks over saturated BUT exported video looks fine in anything other than VLC (or if you dropped it back into Premiere). A LUT could also work. What would really work is moving to fcpx or premiere fixing the issue (im sure resolve doesn't have this issue, but never tried). Again it’s a crazy issue, that I’ve made adobe aware of but they don’t care (a few updates and no changes) as it seems all these video geniuses don’t even notice their footage looking massively different on export or they blame it on something irrelevant (like on this thread) so the issue isn't raised to Adobe

Hope this clears things up.


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greg janza
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Nov 3, 2017 at 3:48:03 pm

Jim, thanks for your detailed explanation. I did your test and I did see a slight chroma difference but after exporting stills out and comparing the two the difference is almost imperceptible. It's helpful though to be aware of this issue with Premiere.





I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Nov 3, 2017 at 5:51:12 pm

Yes those 2 looks very similar. Although incidentally I think it’s affects cool colours less and skin tones more. Also I found I had to go through a hell of a journey trying to get images to look like they looked to me on screen as that’s another layer of colour profile management (photoshop etc)


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Nov 3, 2017 at 4:23:39 pm

There's an easy solution that has been told many times in this thread. Here's the tl;dr

-Set up and maintain a proper color pipeline

Or you can keep yelling that Premiere is to blame for some reason.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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Crescent Diamond
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Nov 7, 2017 at 12:09:38 am

Thanks Jim Elliot. We seem to have the same problem with clips exported from After Effects. What settings do you use in AE so that it is accurate when exported?

Also, do you just add saturation or also contrast before you export?

I would like to report this to Adobe as well. Is there a thread in the forums where you have reported this?

Thanks, Crescent D.


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Matt Hannon
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Apr 17, 2018 at 7:15:24 am

SO HAS ANYONE FOUND A SOLUTION? This thread is pretty old...

Did everyone just switch to FCP?

How do I get this project delivered this week??? Errrrshhhh...

The Road to Patagonia - A two year surfing odyssey - from the top of the world to the bottom


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Crescent Diamond
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Apr 18, 2018 at 3:06:07 am

Hi - I am still trying to find a solution but the cheapest solution that I currently have is to add more saturation and contrast than I would normally and then export to quicktime or h264 mp4 and then go back and add more if necessary. I tried creating a LUT but that didn't totally work. Some of the other solutions on this thread about getting an external broadcast monitor might be the best solution, but I am not 100% sure that Premiere will display correctly on those outputs either.

I still love Premiere despite this big problem. Those of us who agree it is a problem with the software should write to them and complain.

Best,

Crescent

Thanks, Crescent D.


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Matt Hannon
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Apr 18, 2018 at 5:10:49 am

agreed...

It seems to have nothing to do with the monitor - otherwise why cant we effect the footage when we change the colour display of the iMac in preferences? After 1 sec the footage reverts to the same over-saturated and incorrect colour.


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greg janza
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Apr 18, 2018 at 5:17:36 am

[Crescent Diamond] " Some of the other solutions on this thread about getting an external broadcast monitor might be the best solution, but I am not 100% sure that Premiere will display correctly on those outputs either."

The only way to see a color accurate image from Premiere is with a fully calibrated external monitor connected through an i/o card.

Windows 10 Pro
i7-5820k CPU
Nvidia GeForce GTX 970
Adobe CC 2018
Renders/cache: Samsung SSD 950 Pro x2 in Raid 0
Media: Samsung SSD 960 PRO PCIe NVMe M.2 2280
Media: OWC Thunderbay 4 x 2 Raid 0 mirrored with FreeFileSync


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chris pike
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 24, 2018 at 8:41:25 pm

I'm new to the subject of color accuracy, but my understanding is that the best solution to the problem here ("Premiere program monitor looks VERY different to the exported video") is to buy a color accurate external monitor and a UltraStudio Mini Monitor, and look at your work there. That is the best you can do, as I understand it. It looks like you can get the equipment for under $1000. That might be a good use of money, if it saves you the time of futzing around with Look up tables, ect. I am shopping now for a color accurate monitor, because all this talk of LUTs is just over my IQ level.


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Brent Marginet
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jan 25, 2018 at 3:50:06 pm

Good accurate Reference Monitors are at least $3000 or more and in the end if it's only going to end up on the internet you will still be disappointed with the results. VLC, Quicktime, Vimeo, YouTube, etc., etc. are all going to look different and won't match your reference monitor anyway. So if it's only going on the web a reference monitor may not be a justifiable expense.

"MY MEDIA/PROJECT MOTTO: If you think three copies of your Media or Projects are enough. Take a moment to place a value on them and then maybe add two more.
Hard Drives are now stupidly cheap. A RE-SHOOT AND YOUR TIME AREN'T."


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Philip Henry
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on May 9, 2018 at 6:44:46 pm

Jim, I've had the same issue since I bought my 12-core iMac Pro several months ago. I've spent the entire morning troubleshooting, and your advice has helped a lot. I opened up the same projects on my previous computer (Macbook Pro with Cinema Display) and the differences pretty much vanished. That's how I knew it was an issue with my new computer's display settings.

In the end, the default display profile (simply called "iMac") was mostly to blame. I ended up using "sRGB IEC61966-2.1" instead, and that got me most of the way. Then I followed your advice in creating a custom adjustment layer (except I used Lumetri instead of Colorista) that I slap on the entire sequence right before I export. It took me HOURS of exporting little snippets and then comparing the exported film with the "non-adjustment-layered" sequence to get it to match. Still not perfect but a heckuva lot closer.

I agree that skin tones are where it was most obvious. Really frustrating to get a brand new fancy computer and have the end product look crappier than a few months earlier.

Thanks, Jim, for struggling through the process for the rest of us, and sorry you had to deal with some really arrogant idiots along the way.


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Jim Elliott
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on May 9, 2018 at 6:55:04 pm

Glad you found a solution. I still use Premiere with the layer of contrast/saturation on top. But might eventually switch over fully to fcpx


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Chris Spencer-Lowe
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on May 18, 2018 at 6:04:47 am

I'm in the same boat too.
It's VLC reading the video files the same as what I see in Premiere that really gets me. It feels like that is a big clue.

I've done two projects where I use my iMac's P3 monitor full screen through Mercury Transmit ( yup, Mercury Transmit is buggy, yessir but it does work) and a rec 709 HDTV balanced quite flatly and a tad under saturated as a worst case scenario.

I have not seen these crazy differences when playing back out of QT vrs VLC on the other two projects and I did them both this way.

I really hate the idea of having to cluge together an adjustment layer 'reckoning' or a 'fixit' LUT but I see no choice at this point. Even if I do that, VLC will then play it back over the top. I've used VLC for live projection for years and often in tandem with Quicktime player and I have never seen such an image difference between the two. The closest thing I've seen to this is that short period of time when Quicktime wasn't displaying the correct gamma with files out of FCP and you had to downgrade Quicktime to an earlier version to get exports to play back with the right gamma and sat.

I really suspect this is somehow to do with Adobe and Apple not coordinating. Again. There have been huge problems with all of the new versions of CC 2018 Premiere. I would not be surprised if there is some kind of header in the files that tells various software players how to interpret the colour space, or at least the gamma and saturation in the file. And somehow, that info is correct for VLC but not Quicktime or YouTube coming out of Premiere/Media Encoder? Perhaps I'm thinking too much.

I will definitively do any future grading work in Resolve. I may even try to do a 'fixit grade' for this problem now, If I can.


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Aaron Palabyab
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Jul 17, 2018 at 7:49:53 am

Just had to switch back to Premiere Pro CC from FCP X for a current project because I need to hand it over to another editor later on and quickly ran into this issue. Thanks to everyone for all their efforts at investigating, and I share everyone's frustration.

Obviously, I haven't found anything but a similar workaround to what you all have been doing: I export the video without titles and GFX, slap on a color adjustment to the entire thing in FCP X, then export back out and bring it into my Premiere Pro timeline on top of the existing clips and under the titles/GFX. It's a pain, however, at least this way I can compare color in real time with FCP X and Premiere open side-by-side.

Can't believe Adobe still hasn't addressed an issue as glaring as this.


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Antoine Le Guen
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 23, 2018 at 9:09:41 am

Thank you so much for this thread ! I fought I was going crazy.

I lost days trying to figure out why the short film I just spent days grading looked weird everywhere but on Firefox & VLC and figured out that ALL my work from last year looks dull pretty much on every browser/player because of this unacceptable issue for a so-called "professional" NLE...

I am currently switching to FCPX for the small stuff & Resolve (better color/audio) for the big ones because of this very reason.

I was already making do with the terrible render times, bugs & freezes of all sorts, monthly payments & poor playback perfs on OSX but this is too much.

I feel like I lost my time learning this software.

Not cool Adobe, not cool.

Maxed out 2017 MBP linked to a LG 5k Ultrafine Display.


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greg janza
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 23, 2018 at 7:44:07 pm

This has been stated repeatedly in this thread:

The only way to see a color accurate image from Premiere is with a fully calibrated external monitor connected through an i/o card.

Windows 10 Pro | i7-5820k CPU | 64 gigs RAM | NvidiaGeForceGTX970 | Blackmagic Decklink 4k Mini Monitor |
Adobe CC 2018 |Renders/cache: Samsung SSD 950 Pro x2 in Raid 0 | Media: Samsung SSD 960 PRO PCIe NVMe M.2 2280 | Media: OWC Thunderbay 4 x 2 Raid 0 mirrored with FreeFileSync


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Shane Ross
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 23, 2018 at 8:33:13 pm

[Antoine Le Guen] "I am currently switching to FCPX for the small stuff & Resolve (better color/audio) for the big ones because of this very reason."

If you use Resolve for grading, you'll need Blackmagic IO out to a good HDTV to see a proper image. The built in viewer isn't accurate at all...far from it. One reason BMD makes Resolve for free, is to sell their BMD hardware...

[Antoine Le Guen] "I lost days trying to figure out why the short film I just spent days grading looked weird everywhere but on Firefox & VLC and figured out that ALL my work from last year looks dull pretty much on every browser/player because of this unacceptable issue for a so-called "professional" NLE... "

This will be the case with FCPX too...what you see in it won't be what you see in QT vs VLC vs Firefox vs Chrome vs Safari....

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Antoine Le Guen
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 23, 2018 at 10:47:32 pm

Hi Shane, thank you for the insight.
Both my mbp and ultrafine 5K displays are calibrated monthly using a Spyder5, so their colours should be accurate or close enough.
From what I understood, researching for a few days now, is that Premiere, VLC & Firefox (among others) are simply not managing wide gamut P3 colours correctly and show over saturated/contrasted images.
Other programs, like Lightroom, Photoshop, Chrome, Quicktime, etc. all show the "correct" colours for P3 displays (aside from minor differences I don't really care about, they are close enough for me, each software is different, so be it).
This results in exports being grossly under saturated/contrasted for anyone but P3 displays owners using VLC or Firefox... Not a big crowd !

FCPX and Resolve do manage P3 correctly from what I've seen / researched.
FCPX just does it "out of the box" and there's a thing to toggle on in Resolve.

Hope it helps others,
Cheers !


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Shane Ross
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 23, 2018 at 11:51:54 pm

[Antoine Le Guen] "Both my mbp and ultrafine 5K displays are calibrated monthly using a Spyder5, so their colours should be accurate or close enough."

OK...THEY are. But the applications themselves often don't offer color accurate representations of the footage. The VIEWER and PROGRAM MONITORS in many apps aren't accurate, even if your monitor is. Avid's are not...Premiere's, iffy. Resolve, not at all.

[Antoine Le Guen] "From what I understood, researching for a few days now, is that Premiere, VLC & Firefox (among others) are simply not managing wide gamut P3 colours correctly and show over saturated/contrasted images."

OK...Premiere is designed for editing...seeing what you are doing and making editing decisions. If you want color accuracy, then you need hardware to send your signal to an external box. VLC isn't designed for high end work, it's a simple free player that happens to play back MANY formats. It''s far more accurate than QT, for sure. But not a professional color accurate application. And web browsers too...color accuracy on the high end is not their priority.

FCP-X does offer color accuracy, as it knows it's market and that market is mainly viewed on computer screens, so it's interface does offer color accuracy.

[Antoine Le Guen] "Other programs, like Lightroom, Photoshop,"

Yes, those ARE designed to work on PHOTO calibrated monitors...and monitor calibrators are designed to make monitors match specs for photography more than video work.

[Antoine Le Guen] " Chrome, Quicktime, etc. all show the "correct" colours for P3 displays"

Quicktime? Really? I find it brightens the image...all the time.

[Antoine Le Guen] "FCPX and Resolve do manage P3 correctly from what I've seen / researched."

Resolve's built in display is far from accurate. It's gamma is much higher (more washed out) and it favors the color RED. I am judging this based on what I see my computer display (calibrated for photo work) and my external, professional color grading monitor. that viewer is way off. BMD knows this, acknowledges it (to me, anyway, not publicly).

[Antoine Le Guen] "FCPX just does it "out of the box" and there's a thing to toggle on in Resolve."

Yup, FCX is designed with this purpose in mind, because the vast majority of it's userbase needs that. And what do you toggle in Resolve? I'd love to see that to compare.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Depressing. Footage in Premiere/VLC looks VERY different in Quicktime/Vimeo/Youtube
on Aug 24, 2018 at 5:48:25 am

Adobe, Apple, Assimilate, Autodesk, Avid, Blackmagic Design, Digital Vision, Filmlight, SGO et al are not responsible for your color pipeline. They do not know what kind of displays, gear or delivery requirements the user has. You are (or if you have someone else on payroll that knows about this subject) responsible for your color pipeline. Even if you have a program that uses the system profiles to change between color spaces you need to verify that what you're viewing is correct. Even if you're only editing and you see color changes that are because of the monitor.

[Shane Ross] "Resolve's built in display is far from accurate."

You could make a separate calibration LUT for it to get it closer. There will still be the usual problems one might have like wrong levels in the GPU settings and OS switching your ICC profiles after updates etc. I just use a black and white viewer LUT because clients want to stare at the GUI screen where things are happening instead of the reference.


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