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workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC

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Rachel Pearl
workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Nov 14, 2016 at 7:46:20 pm

HI,

Anyone have a favorite feature workflow for Premier Pro CC and the Arri Alexa?

Thanks,
Rachel


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Shane Ross
Re: workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Nov 14, 2016 at 8:13:35 pm

Well, the DEADPOOL feature film converted everything to ProRes and cut that. This does, of course, all depend on how you will be finishing. Will you do all the edit and color and online in Premiere Pro? If so, you might consider converting to PRoRes HQ...and getting a LOT of storage space. Going to use Resolve to finish? Then make ProRes PROXY files in Resolve, send those to Premiere and cut with those...then XML back to Resolve, relink to the Arri footage, grade and output. Or...you can try the new offline/online proxy workflow that Premiere now has...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rachel Pearl
Re: workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Nov 14, 2016 at 8:24:30 pm

thanks!

As yet I have not been told how we are finishing (not ideal, I know) so I want to go with the workflow that gives the most options.

A few questions:

1. Where can I find the new offline/online workflow for Premier?

2. If we convert to ProRes proxies, will they maintain the meta data to match back to the original camera footage?

3. How do folks sync and cut in Premier? I usually use merged clips. Will this work with the process of trancoding and merging to match back to the original files.

Thanks!
Rachel


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Shane Ross
Re: workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Nov 16, 2016 at 1:35:36 am

1) I don't know, I don't have the latest, nor have I used that feature. I was HOPING someone else would chime in. But I'm sure you can google that and someone will have something.

2) Depends on how you do it, but yeah, it should. Not sure if Premiere offline/online does that. But I know if you do it in resolve, then use Resolve to finish, it'll relink. But you can't create them outside of premiere, and then relink inside premiere. Whatever you use to create them, you need to use that to relink to the camera originals. From my experience.

3) I can assume yes, but we need confirmation from someone who has done this...

Shane
Little Frog Post
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Andy Edwards
Re: workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Nov 16, 2016 at 4:21:09 pm

[Rachel Pearl] "1. Where can I find the new offline/online workflow for Premier?"

If you are referring to the proxy workflow, these tutorials might help you:

http://www.dylanosborn.com/2016/09/21/proxy-workflow-part-1/
http://www.dylanosborn.com/2016/10/05/proxy-workflow-part-2/

Andy Edwards


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Dave Will
Re: workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Jun 24, 2018 at 9:28:10 am

Do NOT use Resolve for your dailies! We made this mistake on our feature film (rather, our idiot DITs made the mistake), and now we're in post hell. Here's why it's a bad idea:

1. Resolve transcodes the video and audio together into files you can edit with.
2. You edit.
3. When you lock edit, the audio post house will want to match back to the original audio files.

SORRY! Resolve does NOT maintain audio metadata so you CANNOT match back to the original audio.

Lazy DITs (watch them on set -- they are playing games on their phones 99% of the time) love Resolve because they just drag everything into the timeline and push a button.

It cost a time and money in post to fix the audio issues. DON'T USE RESOLVE because it THROWS AWAY AUDIO METADATA.


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Shane Ross
Re: workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Jun 24, 2018 at 6:10:49 pm

Correction...don't SYNC in resolve and then make dailies. Make dailies in Resolve, and then sync your audio in Premiere Pro.

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Dave Will
Re: workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Jun 24, 2018 at 7:25:06 pm

Shane, unless I misunderstand you, that still doesn't work. I would love to be wrong!

And how do you sync audio in Premiere so that the post house can go back to ALL the original audio after the edit is locked?

If you use multicam to sync audio, then you end up with those weird multicam files that are hard to work with. None of my editors like them (and neither do I). We spent an entire day trying to do multicam, and it's just not practical for a feature. Too complicated and weird. It's not how feature filmmakers work.

And if you "merge clips" to sync audio, then you lose the connection to the original audio. Do a search under merge clips and you'll see the problems you'll encounter down the road with conforming.

Not to mention the problem of syncing several thousand files in Premiere for a feature.

Resolve speeds up the transcode but you lose audio metadata, Premiere lets you sync audio (unsatisfactorily, but at least it works) but you have to do them one at a time. On a feature film that's insane.

What is the solution besides having a team of a dozen people slogging through the process?

Low budget feature films have two choices:
1. Use Premiere and only have the timeline audio (with some handles) at turnover, thereby depriving sound editors of all the different audio track they may want to use -- the lavs, the boom, etc. (Or use our workflow.)
2. Go back to using legacy '90s editing software. Also known as Avid. Clunky and annoying, and you feel stuck in the past, but at least it works.

Currently, here is our workflow:
1. Export the edited project from Premiere 2018 to XML.
2. Import the XML into Premiere 2017.
3. Export the AAF from Premiere 2017, telling it to use all of the audio. (AFTER we go back and enable every single audio track, even unused ones.)
4. Give that AAF to the audio post house.
This means any audio we deleted in the timeline in the last three months will not be in this file. And the sound editor may need those. Oh well, too bad for us! That's what we get for trying to use Premiere to make a feature.

Of course, you must use Premiere 2017 in this chain because Adobe introduced an AAF bug in 2018 and the file is corrupted upon export and completely unusable.

We're doing another movie next year, and I have a year to figure out how to avoid this problem and still edit in Premiere. Or I have a year to learn Avid. (shudder)


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Shane Ross
Re: workflow for Alexa and Premier Pro CC
on Jun 24, 2018 at 8:33:35 pm

[Dave Will] "And how do you sync audio in Premiere so that the post house can go back to ALL the original audio after the edit is locked?"

We are talking SECOND SYSTEM audio here, right? Audio recorded separately from video? And you have slates and all that, right? If so, you make a merged clip in Premiere, based on IN points, like you would do in Avid or any other editor.

[Dave Will] "If you use multicam to sync audio, then you end up with those weird multicam files that are hard to work with. None of my editors like them (and neither do I). We spent an entire day trying to do multicam, and it's just not practical for a feature. Too complicated and weird. It's not how feature filmmakers work."

Multicam is only used if you have multiple cameras. No, you use the MERGE CLIP option...that makes a new clip that is the camera video and second system audio.

[Dave Will] "And if you "merge clips" to sync audio, then you lose the connection to the original audio. Do a search under merge clips and you'll see the problems you'll encounter down the road with conforming."

OH... OK... If this is a problem, if Premiere doesn't merge video and audio clips properly, why are you using Premiere Pro? Avid doesn't do this...Avid relinks to the audio properly. If the NLE you are planning to use doesn't do something right for a process in the pipeline...don't use it.

[Dave Will] "Not to mention the problem of syncing several thousand files in Premiere for a feature. "

Yeah, that's normal. VERY normal. This is why you have assistant editors, or post facilities that do the syncing. This has been the process for quite some time.

[Dave Will] "Resolve speeds up the transcode but you lose audio metadata, Premiere lets you sync audio (unsatisfactorily, but at least it works) but you have to do them one at a time. On a feature film that's insane."

Wait...you said Premiere did it, but LOSES the metadata? Does it work or not? And have you worked on many features? I have worked on two, and several TV shows where, as the assistant editor, I did the audio syncing. Or, on one of the features, we had the telecine house do the syncing. It's all done manually...has been for a while. Still is being done that way, except for some who use Pluraleyes. How else do you think this gets done? SOMEONE has to manually sync the audio.

[Dave Will] "What is the solution besides having a team of a dozen people slogging through the process?"

Well, feature films depending on budgets, have 1 to 4 AEs on staff. Or, if BIG BIG budget, they have a post facility that deals with all the dailies and digital intermediates do this. Smaller budgets, one to two AE's doing the grouping, and sending to the editors to cut..while they continue to group.

[Dave Will] "1. Use Premiere and only have the timeline audio (with some handles) at turnover, thereby depriving sound editors of all the different audio track they may want to use -- the lavs, the boom, etc."

Yeh, dont' ever do this. Not even sure why it's a consideration...it shouldn't even be a thought.

[Dave Will] "2. Go back to using legacy '90s editing software. Also known as Avid. Clunky and annoying, and you feel stuck in the past, but at least it works."

You aren't going to get sympathy for me here. I use Avid daily. It's clunky in some areas, but far surpasses Premiere in others. And it does what you want to do. If you need to sync sound, and that needs to get to audio post, and Premiere DOESN"T DO THAT...then Premiere isn't the right tool for the job, as it fails in one pretty major area of need. If Avid does all this, properly, and it's been my experience that it does...then use Avid.

I'm sure theres a way to do this, as more than a few features have been cut with Premiere (such as the first Deadpool). But I also know many editors don't use Premiere specifically because of audio handoff issues...they tried, but the tools failed. So they went with Avid (Deadpool 2 cut on Avid).

Your workflow does seem to show a BIG problem with Premiere Pro and how it gets audio to post. the 2018 version has been reported to be full of all sorts of issues.

[Dave Will] "4. Give that AAF to the audio post house.
This means any audio we deleted in the timeline in the last three months will not be in this file. And the sound editor may need those. Oh well, too bad for us! That's what we get for trying to use Premiere to make a feature."


This confuses me a bit....if you deleted audio from the timeline...then how could that get to the audio post house? WHat software goes "Oh, that audio you deleted, yeah, I figured you didn't want to do that, so we'll include it in the AAF." The AAF sends information that is in the current timeline. If stuff was removed...then it won't be there for the export. If you needed that stuff, don't delete it. Why was it deleted?

Yeah, before you tackle your next film, do a lot of testing...perhaps sticking with an older version of Premiere Pro that does what is required, or go to a tool that does what is needed. Sorry that this means learning a tool you don't want to...I get that. I tried to use FCX for a couple days to help a company out, and failed miserably...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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