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A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital

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Jon Wendz
A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 5, 2016 at 8:35:46 pm

Hi all, I'm a bit of a newbie here and I'm hoping someone may be able to help me in my latest venture.

I have a load of old family videos which I really want to digitise and upload to YouTube for the family for a special Christmas surprise!

I've already done the most painful bit, and captured all of the footage onto my PC: Sony DV Handycam->Firewire->PC. Now my 2TB HDD is short on space for the first time ever ?Digression aside, each of the 'raw' avi files are huge, with properties of 720x576 @ 25fps. I'm using Premiere Pro CC 2017 and have been encoding to HEVC (H.265).

Here's the issue (and I've spent a while researching prior to asking this) what's the deal with the frame rate on export? It doesn't look right at all. What I've learned is that the raw footage from my DV camcorder is interlaced and the top and bottom fields have been compressed into a single frame when I export? In Handbrake for example there's a 'bob & weave' export facility which on compression looks pretty much 1:1 with the original and ends up at 50fps. I don't however see such an option in Premiere Pro. I can change the framerate to 50 fps on export but I don't think it's doing what I want it to do.

Does anyone have a tried and tested method of exporting the classic DV goodness from it's avi original into a compressed, clean mp4 (or similar) output directly from PP? Many thanks all ?

As a side note, the raw avi shows these properties (don't know if they are of any use)

Cheers, Jon

Format: AVI
Format/Info: Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name: DV
Format profile: OpenDML
File size: 12.9 GiB
Duration: 1h 0mn
Overall bit rate mode: Constant
Overall bit rate: 30.4 Mbps
Recorded date: 1999-06-25 20:50:06.000

Video
ID: 0
Format: DV
Codec ID: dvsd
Codec ID/Hint: Sony
Duration: 1h 0mn
Bit rate mode: Constant
Bit rate: 24.4 Mbps
Encoded bit rate: 28.8 Mbps
Width: 720 pixels
Height: 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio: 4:3
Frame rate mode: Constant
Frame rate: 25.000 fps
Standard: PAL
Color space: YUV
Chroma subsampling: 4:2:0
Bit depth: 8 bits
Scan type: Interlaced
Scan order: Bottom Field First
Compression mode: Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame): 2.357
Time code of first frame: 00:00:00:22
Time code source : Subcode time code
Stream size: 12.2 GiB (95%)
Encoding settings: ae mode=full automatic / wb mode=automatic / white balance= / fcm=manual focus

Audio
ID: 1
Format: PCM
Format settings, Endianness: Little
Format settings, Sign: Signed
Codec ID: 1
Duration: 1h 0mn
Bit rate mode: Constant
Bit rate: 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s): 2 channels
Sampling rate: 48.0 KHz
Bit depth: 16 bits
Stream size: 667 MiB (5%)
Alignment: Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration: 280 ms (7.00 video frames)
Interleave, preload duration: 280 ms


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Chris Wright
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 5, 2016 at 10:00:02 pm
Last Edited By Chris Wright on Nov 6, 2016 at 3:47:05 pm

handbrake changes 2 fields to 2 frames so converting 25 interlaced to 50 progressive
that is one way to deinterlace called "bob and weave".

does your video exporting have lines when there is fast motion?

match your sequence frame rate to the 25 or...
enable optical flow or you'll get duplicate frames if you mismatch framerate

I know in after effects, if you place a 25i into a 50p comp, it will fill
each frame with a field so you keep the smooth high rate motion effect.

if you deinterlace, it will become motion movie-like at 25p.

In adobe media encoder right click interpret field order as lower field.
then output codec video tab as progressive.

I don't believe premiere can do bob and weave export. Someone can hopefully correct me if I'm wrong on this.


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Ann Bens
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 6, 2016 at 2:22:20 pm
Last Edited By Ann Bens on Nov 6, 2016 at 2:30:06 pm

Dont mess with the fields. PAL dv is LOWER.
DV avi files are about 13 gig an hour which is the normal size. (get a larger disk)
If you want to make dv footage suitable for Youtube.
Make sure you have a matching sequence (there is a DV preset for this).
Export to H.265/H.264/mp4 (progessive) making the framesize 788x576 par 1.0 en framerate 25 fps. (widescreen is 1050x576)

-----------------------------------------------
Adobe Certified Expert Premiere Pro CS6/CC
Adobe Community Professional


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Jon Wendz
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 6, 2016 at 4:03:24 pm

Thanks all.

Chris:
Yes there are exporting lines that appear! I'm slightly confused - what's Adobe media encoder? Is that essentially the screenshot below? All I want to achieve is on compression, the same great fluidity that the raw avi provides.

Ann:
Perhaps I'm being stupid, but if I select match sequence settings, there's no option for compression below (it's all greyed out).



Ignore the YouTube bit, that's something I'll do later down the line. For now, I want a nicely compressed MP4, retaining the extra-fluid nature of the original.


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Chris Wright
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 6, 2016 at 5:01:05 pm

i anticipated that you had this error.

here's where to interpret footage and render progressive







as for keeping the video look, you have two choices. uses optical flow as listed below for 50p

Time interpolation settings using optical flow which might introduce artifacts
https://helpx.adobe.com/media-encoder/using/export-settings-reference.html

or try after effects with placing 25i (interpret fields lower) into a 50p composition and render out 50p no fields.(will put one field in each frames, ie. frame double


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Jon Wendz
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 6, 2016 at 5:08:51 pm

Thank you. I'll try the first option as I've never used AE before and I want to minimise my learning for now ? I'll let you know how it goes!


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Jon Wendz
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 7, 2016 at 1:38:51 am

Nailed it - I think.

The HVEC 265 encoder has no option for lower/upper field. When I reverted to H264 the option was available!

I wonder why it doesn't support it in the former...

Thanks again all :)


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Jeff Pulera
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 7, 2016 at 2:19:48 pm

If exporting to H.264, you do not want any interlacing (fields). The .mp4 files will be watched on computers and tablets and their displays are always progressive, so you want to export Progressive.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers


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Jon Wendz
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 7, 2016 at 2:30:02 pm

Thanks - so for clarification, that's basically choosing "lower" in the render bit? That's effectively deinterlacing it right? (Sorry if I'm a bit naive, this is all new to me).


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Jeff Pulera
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 7, 2016 at 2:34:17 pm

No, if you choose UPPER or LOWER, that is INTERLACED video. You want Fields = PROGRESSIVE.

You could just select the H.264 > PAL DV export preset, then manually change Field Order to Progressive.

Thanks

Jeff


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Jon Wendz
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 7, 2016 at 2:40:50 pm

Perfecto! I'll give that a bash tonight, thanks Jeff.


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Jeff Pulera
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Nov 7, 2016 at 2:45:09 pm

I know the field thing can get confusing, and people might describe various workflows/methods of applying deinterlacing within Premiere, or interpreting footage or whatever. All I've ever done when exporting NTSC or 1080i (both interlaced formats) to H.264 is to export progressive and results look and work fine online and for computer playback. Adobe Media Encoder just does the deinterlacing when export is Progressive.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers


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Jon Wendz
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Jul 1, 2017 at 9:12:28 am

Sorry to resurrect and old post, but I ended up not finishing this thread for university reasons (I'm finished with all that now!)

So I'm nearly there with this codec/interlacing thing.

- I've used the H.264 format, selecting PAL DV as the profile;
- I've hit "Match Source", but amended the field order to 'Progressive' and the Frame Rate to '50' (I tried progressive at 25 and it wasn't smooth);
- Bitrate wise, this is a bit more tricky but from reading the forum I realise having too much bit rate is effectively a waste given the source. I'm just using the preset of VBR 1 pass and 3/6 for the target and maximum;
- Maximum render depth and quality are on;
(See screenshot)


My questions:

1. I cannot tell you how many samples I've exported with varying bitrates - I can't tell that much difference unless I go stupidly low. I'm guessing 3/6 is okay? (I only ask because I only intend on digitizing my 60 odd videos once) ☺
2. If I'm making my video progressive with 50fps, the time interpolation I suppose becomes relevant. I've read various threads on here regarding this, but I can't quite spot the difference between frame sampling, blending and optical flow. Or, is this not used simply because the interlaced fields are just thrown into their own individual frames?
3. The original source has kind of a funny border so I've set a crop to it. This then scales the source - is this much a problem quality wise?
4. Is there anything I've missed before I start the mammoth export?

Thanks all, I really do appreciate your help!

Jon


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Ann Bens
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Jul 1, 2017 at 10:48:43 am

What do you want your end product to be. That determines the output.
DVD, pc, youtube?

-----------------------------------------------
Adobe Certified Expert Premiere Pro CS6/CC
Adobe Community Professional


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Jon Wendz
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Jul 1, 2017 at 11:43:00 am

Great quality MP4 files that I can archive on Dropbox, and share with family for their PC use. Maybe YouTube one day...


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Jon Wendz
Re: A question about converting my old PAL DV movies into digital
on Jul 5, 2017 at 6:04:38 pm

Hmm still struggling to get this right. Any other ideas? :/


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