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John Watts
Drive demands.
on Feb 2, 2019 at 8:02:06 pm
Last Edited By John Watts on Feb 2, 2019 at 11:06:17 pm

With PPro, I use 10 layers of video, 2 layers of graphics 2 or 3 layers of audio. With the system SSD all plays well and edits quickly. But, am constantly moving media around to have enough space for each weekly show.

Client bought me a Sony 2 x 2TB 7200rpm array. Using RAID 0 it doesn't pass the test as the timeline is horrifically sluggish. He was going to get me a 1TB SSD to hold me over, but, said he could not find an external SSD with Thunderbolt 2. (Curios if an external SSD with USB 3 would be fast enough?)
I've insisted, by my experience, that at least a 4 drive array or SSD will be fast enough for so many layers. But he is a "computer guy" and is telling me that RAID is too slow! Despite my decades of experience indicating otherwise. So now, have to box up and send the drive back.

Since a TB2 SSD seems impossible to find, is anyone using a TB3 to TB2 adapter?

What's an editor to do??

John Watts
Premiere Pro Version 12.1.2 Build 69
2017 iMac (Retina 5K 27 inch) 1TB SSD
4GHZ Intel Core i7
32GB 1867 MHz DDR3
Graphics AMD Radeon R9 M395X 4096 MB
macOS High Sierra Version 10.13.6


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Jeff Pulera
Re: Drive demands.
on Feb 4, 2019 at 8:42:59 pm

You mention 10 layers of video, but not the format - for instance AVCHD files are going to use far less bandwidth than ProRes files. HD or 4K? And so on. What are you working with there?

What interface/cable did you use to connect the Sony RAID?

The Apple Thunderbolt adapter should work fine to adapt current Thunderbolt 3 drives to your Thunderbolt 2 computer. However, be wary of the advertising that claims drives as "Compatible with Thunderbolt 3" as the interface on such drives may actually be USB-C. Yes, USB-C drives will work with a Thunderbolt 3 port on computer, but since the drive is not Thunderbolt 3 then a Thunderbolt adapter will NOT work (with USB-C). Must truly be a TB3 interface on the drive or adapter is of no use. Lacking a TB3 port on computer, USB-C drives can be connected to a USB 3.0 port on computer.

Any kind of high-capacity SSD will cost much more per GB than a HDD RAID array, but the SSD can deliver the insane speeds especially as a RAID. G-Tech has their new G-Drive PRO SSD with Thunderbolt 3 and that could use the Thunderbolt adapter.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers


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John Watts
Re: Drive demands.
on Feb 4, 2019 at 10:34:22 pm

[Jeff Pulera] "You mention 10 layers of video, but not the format - for instance AVCHD files are going to use far less bandwidth than ProRes files. HD or 4K? And so on. What are you working with there?
"


AVCHD. 1080p 29.97. I take the separate .mts files through EditReady to convert to one quicktime file and place on timeline.
It's a one hour show with 9 lockdown cams and 1 mobile cam. Plus audio from a zoom recorder and 2 layers of graphics.

[Jeff Pulera] "What interface/cable did you use to connect the Sony RAID?
"


Thunderbolt 2

A client is purchasing this drive for me, but, he keeps trying to find drives that are not likely to work. With the Sony drive the latency on the timeline was about 8 seconds between spacebar and video playing.
Now he wants to get this drive for me. I don't think it's going to work either, even with the SSD buffer upgrade.
I've tried to explain that for most video editing it will work, but, not for 10 layers of video.
He is a computer guy, but, not a video production guy.
https://www.amazon.com/LaCie-Thunderbolt-7200RPM-External-STEX4000400/dp/B0...

John Watts
Premiere Pro Version 12.1.2 Build 69
2017 iMac (Retina 5K 27 inch) 1TB SSD
4GHZ Intel Core i7
32GB 1867 MHz DDR3
Graphics AMD Radeon R9 M395X 4096 MB
macOS High Sierra Version 10.13.6


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Jeff Pulera
Re: Drive demands.
on Feb 4, 2019 at 10:47:59 pm

That's helpful information. So when you say 10 layers, they're not all showing at once right? I'm assuming you have 10 sources, then "switch" between them as needed? If that's the case, really only "playing" one stream of video at a time then and the demands are far less than playing all 10 at once.

So you converted the small AVCHD files to .mov files then? What is the bit rate on those - that could be the issue if even a 2-drive RAID 0 via Thunderbolt was choking. Maybe they are uncompressed files??

Please download Media Info app and see what your video clips are made of - if you can post the results in Tree View mode that is helpful. Download app here - https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

But you are right, you definitely don't want the single hard drive for what you are doing, minimum of RAID or SSD suggested. Single drives are okay for photos, music, light video editing.

Thunderbolt alone does not make a drive fast - the hard drive itself is the limiting factor since a single HDD can only push 180-240MB/s usually depending on the drive used inside.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers


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John Watts
Re: Drive demands.
on Feb 6, 2019 at 6:30:28 pm

[Jeff Pulera] "So when you say 10 layers, they're not all showing at once right? I'm assuming you have 10 sources, then "switch" between them as needed? If that's the case, really only "playing" one stream of video at a time then and the demands are far less than playing all 10 at once."

That is essentially correct. At most maybe two layers of video, two layers of graphics and 2 layers of audio at the same time. I'm cutting a show with no switch master.

[Jeff Pulera] "Thunderbolt alone does not make a drive fast - the hard drive itself is the limiting factor since a single HDD can only push 180-240MB/s usually depending on the drive used inside.
"


The bit rate on each of the 10 video files are:
Quicktime 14.2 GiB, 1 hr 22mn
Video: AVC
Overall Bit Rate 24.9 Mbps, Overall bit rate mode: Variable,
Streams: 22.7 Mbps 1920x1080 16:9 at 29.970.
Audio: PCM
2 304 Kbps, 48 K, 24 bits, 2 channels.

What would be good rule of thumb drive read and write speed for my needs?

I know which drive I would like him to purchase, but, he keeps trying to slide me these underperforming drives. Hopefully I can show him someone else's opinion and convince him to get an SSD.

Thanks very much for your assistance, BTW.

John Watts
Premiere Pro Version 12.1.2 Build 69
2017 iMac (Retina 5K 27 inch) 1TB SSD
4GHZ Intel Core i7
32GB 1867 MHz DDR3
Graphics AMD Radeon R9 M395X 4096 MB
macOS Mojave 10.14



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Jeff Pulera
Re: Drive demands.
on Feb 6, 2019 at 7:31:32 pm

Are you using MultiCam in Premiere, which then would have to "play" all the clips at once to preview them?

If you are really only doing 1-2 layers of video at a time with graphics and sound, that is nothing. The 25mbps of the AVCHD is the same as DV video which has been around over 20 years, very light. When you said you were converting to QuickTime, I thought maybe ProRes or DNxHD or something which could possibly balloon the files up 5-10x larger than originals.

Honestly, a fast single SATA drive with USB 3.0 ought to show no lag at all in that scenario, and a two-drive RAID 0 would be plenty fast. So I don't know why you'd see lagging unless there is some other factor at play.

Think about it this way - a video clip at 25mbps converts to about 3MB/s and a single fast drive might be 180-240MB/s so you can see that drive speed should not be the issue here.

Effects play big role of course - if you have a video denoiser such as Neat or RedGiant applied, that will bog down on any system. Lumetri Color can be kind of heavy as well. Warp Stabilizer is very bad. Any effects used?

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers


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John Watts
Re: Drive demands.
on Feb 6, 2019 at 8:18:51 pm

[Jeff Pulera] "Are you using MultiCam in Premiere, which then would have to "play" all the clips at once to preview them?
"


At this time, I am not using Premiere's version of MultiCam. I have practiced it that way, and intend to edit with MultiCam in the future. The turnaround time is very tight, and I'm used to putting all the cams on the timeline, syncing with plural eyes, then just cutting cams by layer. One of those deals where I have refined my workflow and changing methods will hold me back until I get up to speed again.


[Jeff Pulera] "When you said you were converting to QuickTime, I thought maybe ProRes or DNxHD or something which could possibly balloon the files up 5-10x larger than originals."

No, it's just a rewrap for convenience. Instead of laying 6 separate .mts files w/2gb limit on one layer, EditReady will rewrap as one qt file while importing to drive. A little simplicity in workflow.

[Jeff Pulera] "Honestly, a fast single SATA drive with USB 3.0 ought to show no lag at all in that scenario, and a two-drive RAID 0 would be plenty fast. So I don't know why you'd see lagging unless there is some other factor at play.
"


When first assigned this show, I thought one of the two single drives I already had would be sufficient. However, I tried them and they could not keep up, not even close. Another editor who had done this show said he could only get it to work on an SSD.
So, I followed suit, and didn't argue about it.
Frankly, I dont' know why the Sony RAID drive wouldn't work either. Once I got to about 8 layers, it bogged down badly.

[Jeff Pulera] "Effects play big role of course - if you have a video denoiser such as Neat or RedGiant applied, that will bog down on any system. Lumetri Color can be kind of heavy as well. Warp Stabilizer is very bad. Any effects used?"

No third party effects are used. I will color correct two cameras all the way through, and others as needed. There is some DVE work done to adjust camera positions and do some zoom ins, but, nothing apparently intensive. In trying the Sony drive, I didn't even get to the point of color correcting before the bog down starting happening.

Once, I color corrected all cameras before starting the edit...even the SSD couldn't keep up with that!

Appreciate this much. I'm curious if using the multicam mode would put less stress on the drives? This show can have some real sync issues since there is no blackburst to help and the cameras are pretty low end. PluralEyes has been the magic wand to fix those issues.

John Watts
Premiere Pro Version 12.1.2 Build 69
2017 iMac (Retina 5K 27 inch) 1TB SSD
4GHZ Intel Core i7
32GB 1867 MHz DDR3
Graphics AMD Radeon R9 M395X 4096 MB
macOS Mojave 10.14



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John Watts
Re: Drive demands.
on Feb 13, 2019 at 1:41:22 am

I am looking at this SSD drive...can't find but a couple of reviews for it. But, nobody who does editing.
Curious as to what anybody might think...it's TB3, and I would have to use an adapter to TB2.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1294391-REG/lacie_stff2000400_2tb_bo...

The only issue I might see is it is marked down from $1999 to $599...might there be an unpopularity for some reason?

TIA

John Watts
Premiere Pro Version 12.1.2 Build 69
2017 iMac (Retina 5K 27 inch) 1TB SSD
4GHZ Intel Core i7
32GB 1867 MHz DDR3
Graphics AMD Radeon R9 M395X 4096 MB
macOS Mojave 10.14



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