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4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?

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Olivier Prudhomme
4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 1:27:29 am

I am not being to be sarcastic.
I just want to understand if I am doing the right thing:
4K footage from client and delivery specs at 1920.
Why should I go through the struggle of jittery / lagging playback when I use the 4K footage if I can convert it to Prores and have a smooth experience?

Am I missing something?... Do I loose the sharpness of 4K? Do I lose the ability to scale up/down the 4K footage in a 1920 timeline?

Thanks in advance

I am using 2017 iMac 27", 32Gb RAM, 1Tb Fusion, 3.4 ghz

Los Angeles - TV Promo Editor - FCP - AVID


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Brent Marginet
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 4:08:10 am

You can get rid of the jittery/laggy playback issues by using a Proxy Workflow in any NLE. Edit with the Proxies and then switch back to the full res video before you do your exports.

You won’t lose much if you convert to 4K ProRes except for a ton of hard drive space and the transcoding time. It only makes sense to transcode to 1920 ProRes for smooth playback if you plan on relinking back to the 4K footage before your final outputs.

You will have sharper cleaner final outputs especially when you scale up any of your clips.

As an example I’m working on a project that was shot with two Sony Cameras where A-Cam was 3840x2160 and B-Cam was set to 1920x1080. The original plan was that B-Cam was supposed to be Scaled Up and also Panned and Scanned. In the end the show has failed QC three times and will not air unless this footage is reshot properly. So now there’s budget problems plus the fact that it all will need to be reshot next June and July to match everything else.

These are the kinds of things that happen when shooters are careless and I receive all of the footage two months after all shooting has been completed.

"MY MEDIA/PROJECT MOTTO: If you think three copies of your Media or Projects are enough. Take a moment to place a value on them and then maybe add two more.
Hard Drives are now stupidly cheap. A RE-SHOOT AND YOUR TIME AREN'T."


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Olivier Prudhomme
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 4:27:50 am

Thanks Brent for the thorough answer
Very helpful.
A few questions if you have time:

[Brent Marginet] " using a Proxy Workflow in any NLE"
I explored this option, which was my first to go workflow, but the process became daunting: using Media Encoder I couldn't find a solution I would understand...

[Brent Marginet] "Edit with the Proxies and then switch back to the full res video before you do your exports."
Since I would be making proxies from XMF files, would it be simple to relink the proxy files (.mov) to .xmf files?

[Brent Marginet] " convert to 4K ProRes"
How do I do that? The only Prores I see is 1920 by default.

[Brent Marginet] "These are the kinds of things that happen when shooters are careless and I receive all of the footage two months after all shooting has been completed."
I always get the same type of issues... And also the budget one where not much is left for post: On my project, $18,000 was spent on 3-week travel expenses!!! And my budget is a couple thousand bucks!!!

Los Angeles - TV Promo Editor - FCP - AVID


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Brent Marginet
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 4:56:05 am
Last Edited By Brent Marginet on Nov 1, 2017 at 5:09:33 am

These training videos are quite long and sometimes he dumbs things down a bit much but there’s a section in the first one that goes over using a Proxy Workflow. The Proxy Workflow is really very straight forward and easy to use when it's done that way it's explained in the first of his Videos.

Here’s the link to these YouTube Videos.
You will have to copy and paste this link, It doesn't seem to be clickable for some odd reason.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD8AMy73ZVxWiBMQM6zZ0fQHCXOZ2f1m9&tr...

"MY MEDIA/PROJECT MOTTO: If you think three copies of your Media or Projects are enough. Take a moment to place a value on them and then maybe add two more.
Hard Drives are now stupidly cheap. A RE-SHOOT AND YOUR TIME AREN'T."


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Brent Marginet
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 5:20:46 am

[Olivier Prudhomme] "How do I do that? The only Prores I see is 1920 by default."

I tend to always use Resolve to Transcode footage because it allows me to embed the all important Tape/Reel Name into the Transcoded Footage. Just make sure you set the Video Levels to "Full" if you are going to Transcode to ProRes 4444 and set the Conform Options as per the attached screen shot.



"MY MEDIA/PROJECT MOTTO: If you think three copies of your Media or Projects are enough. Take a moment to place a value on them and then maybe add two more.
Hard Drives are now stupidly cheap. A RE-SHOOT AND YOUR TIME AREN'T."


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Olivier Prudhomme
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 5:47:58 am

Fantastic Brent
thanks a bunch
Never touch Resolve but now's the time to look into it

Los Angeles - TV Promo Editor - FCP - AVID


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greg janza
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 4:15:30 am

If your edit machine is on the older side I can understand being hesitant to work with 4k. However, there's a big upside to 4k if you have a fast enough computer to handle it.

Many 4k workflows currently are 1920x1080 delivery specs and so the extra frame size allows for punch ins on interviews as well as any b-roll. This comes in handy with interviews if you don't have a second camera that you can cut to and also with b-roll if you want to focus on only a part of the frame or if you need to avoid some of the frame.

But the larger benefit is the much larger color space of 4k which allows for greater freedom and more options in the color process which is especially helpful if you send work to a colorist.

If your system is on the older side you can use proxies to get around the larger file sizes and demands of 4k material.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Olivier Prudhomme
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 4:34:19 am

[greg janza] "there's a big upside to 4k if you have a fast enough computer to handle it."
Brand new iMac 27". I actually moved the media on an external drive and things run more smoothly actually.

[greg janza] "This comes in handy with interviews if you don't have a second camera that you can cut to and also with b-roll if you want to focus on only a part of the frame or if you need to avoid some of the frame.
But the larger benefit is the much larger color space of 4k which allows for greater freedom and more options in the color process which is especially helpful if you send work to a colorist."

Makes a lot of sense.

[greg janza] "you can use proxie"
I just asked Brent the same question, so in case he doesn't get a chance to answer: I looked at Media Encoder to create proxies and the process became daunting which the number or choices I had. Also I was concerned/worried that I would have a hard time relinking xmd files with .mov proxies.
Frame rate also worried me... My original footage seems to be 23.976 but unless I checked all the files I am afraid some might not be (first time I work with this crew so not sure how reliable they are)

Thanks for great input

Los Angeles - TV Promo Editor - FCP - AVID


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greg janza
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 5:26:25 am

I'm sure Brent's tutorial video link will cover this but just in case. proxies are straightforward for the most part but there's one aspect of them that can cause a massive headache. When you create proxies, the proxy files must have the same number of audio channels as your 4k master files. So if there's 8 channels of audio on your 4k files you need to make 8 channel proxies.

And the part that can get you in trouble is that the default proxy options in Premiere don't include an option with 8 channels of audio or even 4 channels. So you have to create a custom ingest preset in Encoder, save that ingest preset to your desktop or somewhere that you can steer to it and then import it into the proxy dialogue box in premiere. This is the complicated part but if you have 4 or 8 channel audio on your 4k files you'll need to manuever through it.

Here's an article that explains:
https://blog.frame.io/2017/03/20/premiere-pro-proxies/

the problem arises when you want to match back to your 4k files at the end of your edit. When you select the 4k option you'll get an error message saying that the proxy files can't match back to the 4k because there's a mismatch with the audio channels.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Olivier Prudhomme
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 1, 2017 at 5:46:12 am

[greg janza] "Here's an article that explains:
https://blog.frame.io/2017/03/20/premiere-pro-proxies/
"

Awesome Greg thanks !!!

Los Angeles - TV Promo Editor - FCP - AVID


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Mark Suszko
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 2, 2017 at 7:07:01 pm

I'm curious about what it was in the 4k footage that was shot and re-scaled to edit with the "A" camera, that "failed QC" multiple times? What specifically did they kick it back for?


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Brent Marginet
Re: 4K media for 1920 delivery: what's the point of shooting 4K?
on Nov 2, 2017 at 8:01:05 pm

None of the A-Cam UHD that was scaled failed QC.
It's the B-Cam HD that was scaled that failed the QC.
I warned them not to scale it to much but why listen to someone that does final mastering all the time.

I even put a custom Burn In just to the left of the Clip Name that said "4K" when Transcoding the Proxies out of Resolve. That way they had a handy visual aid on every clip and didn't have to search through lists of paper to know which footage was 4K.

"MY MEDIA/PROJECT MOTTO: If you think three copies of your Media or Projects are enough. Take a moment to place a value on them and then maybe add two more.
Hard Drives are now stupidly cheap. A RE-SHOOT AND YOUR TIME AREN'T."


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