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Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations

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Ray Sherman
Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 5, 2016 at 12:44:53 pm
Last Edited By Ray Sherman on Nov 5, 2016 at 1:40:06 pm

Hi, I placed a post back in February of 2015 named “Needed: Setting Up RAID For iMac 5K For Video Editing” https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/292/3724
As I stated in that post, I do want a smooth 1080 and 4K editing experience without any lagging and/or time consuming issues. My editing events are anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour on the timeline. I do like using some effects, plugins, transitions, chroma keying, pictures and music therefore, I do use multiple timelines. Rendering times are not important to me, I usually do so overnight.

Planned software;
Apple FCPX
Apple Motion 5
Apple Comperssor
Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 5

My following equipment only consists of;
Sony XDCAM PXW-X70 w/ XAVC L(GOP), AVCHD with 4K
GoPro Hero 2
Sony RX100 V with 4K (near future)

At the time of my previous post, I was about to purchase a maxed out iMac in which I needed your advice for a RAID setup/configuration for editing in 4k with FCPX. I received great advice from a lot of you in which I sincerely appreciated. I was about to pull the trigger on the iMac (2015) and a Pegasus2 R8 24TB (8 x 3TB SATA) RAID Thunderbolt 2 System. I held off from that purchase due to rumors of Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C coming in the near future. I’m glad I did...........
Promise Technology has a new Pagasus 3 lineup http://www.promise.com/Products/Pegasus/Pegasus3-Symply-Edition I’ve been waiting for this all summer wanting a Pegasus3 R8 24TB (8 x 3TB SATA). Unfortunately, this particular one isn’t offered in the Thunderbolt 3 lineup. There are only two being offered in an 8 disc array, 32TB (8x4TB SATA) and 48TB (8x6TB). Also offered are 4 and 6 drive configurations. (Sizes are found accordingly under Specifications)
With the enormous amount of help that you folks gave me in my previous post, I came to the conclusion of getting an 8 disc array set as RAID 5. This decision was mainly due to learning the fact that seamless playback/throughput of 4K is directed to how many drives you have and not the overall capacity in a hard drive subsystem.
Now I have a few questions due to the huge difference between Thunderbolt 2 and 3.
As you know, Thunderbolt 3 offers 40gbps which is double that of Thunderbolt 2. Keeping in mind that I plan on running in RAID 5, my questions are as follows;
1) With the speed of Thunderbolt 3, would you still stick with an 8 disc array?
2) Would a 6 disc array with Thunderbolt 3 offer faster throughput than an 8 disc array Thunderbolt 2?
3) What would you recommend for two separate Thunderbolt 3 disc array drives with one being your RAID editing drive and the other for original media/master backups, what would you purchase?
4) Would you just use a Thunderbolt 3 disc array for your editing RAID drive with a non RAID backup drive?

Please give me your thoughts, ideas and/or recommendations that may come to mind. As always, your help and expertise is sincerely appreciated and valued. Thanks, Ray


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Bob Zelin
Re: Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 5, 2016 at 11:09:19 pm

Hi Ray -
and what did you wind up buying last year in 2015 for your solution ?

The Thunderbolt 3 RAID's are not out yet, but your choices right now include
the Lacie 12 Big, the Highpoint 8 bay, and the Promise Pegasus 3.
I am sure that by NAB, everyone and their mother will have Thunderbolt 3 solutions.

How much are you willing to spend for this ?

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 6, 2016 at 12:11:23 pm

Hi Ray,

first of all: Can your computer handle Thunderbolt 3?
Now to your questions:
1: Yes, you can go with raid level6, which gives you more redundancy.
2: Yes it does, but keep in mind, that theoretical speed outputs, are not the outputs you get in reality.
3: One fast working raid - use your raids you already have for back-up (esata/Usb3 is fast enough for back-up)
4: see answer 3. We do one back-up on a esata raid5 plus one back-up on HDs. The Hds are stored in a different place.

By the way, none of your camera equipment meets a professional 4K standard. The new Canon 5D and the Panasonic AG-DVX200, or the Sony PXW-FS7 are prize sensitive professional solutions,

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Ray Sherman
Re: Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 6, 2016 at 1:59:03 pm

Thanks for the replies.........
Bob Zelin asked;
What did you wind up buying last year in 2015 for your solution?

I didn't buy anything. I held off due to Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C.
How much are you willing to spend for this?
I was set to spend around $3000.00 for an 8 disc array. I have done quite a bit of research which leans me towards the Pegasus. I realize the Pegasus is pricy, but it also offers great reliability due to past reviews. I'm definately open to the others, but for now it remains to be the Pegasus.

Rainer Wirth asked; Can your computer handle Thunderbolt 3?
No, currently I'm using Windows 10 with Sony Vegas. I'm leaving the Microsoft world due to too many headaches with video editing. I know Apple has its issues, but not anywhere near in comparison according to many of those that has used both. I've never owned a Mac computer and can't wait until I do. After looking and anticipating to use FCPX and Motion for the past couple years, I feel that now is the time to make the switch.

I am going to purchase the following;
15" MacBook Pro w/ Retina (2016 Maxed out)
Upcoming 27" iMac with Retina 5K Display (Maxed out with the exception of Apples RAM) My plan is purchasing with 8GB, trade in the 8GB and up the RAM to 32GB from OWC.

At this point, I have a handfull of 1TB and 2TB portable USB 3.0 drives. With that being said, I want to get a good disc array with good throughput and run it in RAID 5 for my editing drive. I also would like another large backup drive for my original media and Masters.
As you can see, all of this comes to a fairly large amount of $$$$. I'm not looking to get more throughput than I need, but I do want a smooth editing system. I was set on the Pegasus2 R8 24TB (8 x 3TB SATA), but with Thunderbolt 3 now in the picture, I'm in question to what I really need. Do I need 8 drives or can I step down to 6 drives for good throughput? I realize that my equipment is simple in regards to Pro, but it suits my needs. I'm not a professional in which many of you are. You've done that and you've been there, for that reason I value everyone's help and advice throughout this forum. Thanks, Ray


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 7, 2016 at 3:15:06 pm

Hi Ray,

at the moment no mac does Thunderbolt 3. I doubt that the iMac does it in the future. I think you need a mac Pro. Why do you need a mac book? Instead of going for a mac book and iMac Iwould go for a decent mac Pro.
If you run your Pegasus on Raid level 6, what you should you loose 2 bays for redundancy. So I would go for a 8 bay, because you need a lot of space for 4k projects.

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Bob Zelin
Re: Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 7, 2016 at 4:38:46 pm

Hi Ray -
of course, Rainer is correct. Let me assure you, that when you wait for the new Thunderbolt 3 computer, and the new
Thunderbolt 3 drive array, 12 months later, that computer will be obsolete, that drive array will be obsolete, and the new series of Apple computers, with better GPU, faster processors, etc. will be out, and the faster drive arrays will be out.
If you think that there is a 5 year plan, just forget about it. You need to make a living - TODAY (and last year). I assume this is not a hobby for you, and that you make a living doing this. You buy what you need to accomplish this. 8K just came out, and while many people think this is ridiculous, 3 years ago, most people thought that 4K was ridiculous, and now everyone shoots with 4K. And this will happen with 8K. And your drives will not be fast enough that you buy in 2016, and you will have to switch to the (non existant right now) large SSD drives to get the speeds that you need.

This means that you will continue to spend money, and spend it again, and again, and again, and every time saying to yourself "I can't believe I spent all that money just a few years ago, and now it's all useless and obsolete". Welcome to the club. There is not one professional that has not gone thru this over the years, over and over again. Just buy something.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Ray Sherman
Re: Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 7, 2016 at 9:58:52 pm
Last Edited By Ray Sherman on Nov 7, 2016 at 10:41:19 pm

Hi,
Thanks for the replies......... I must be missing something. I was under the impression that the new MacBook Pro (2016) is capable of making use of Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C. I do realize that it wouldn't handle large projects. I would be using the MacBook Pro for many other purposes other than simple video editing on the fly. It would also be great for off loading video while on the road. Another huge point for me is that I would use it for my DJ work. In addition, I would make use of its many standard app's. This would be my portable computer on the go. Personally, I'm not into or own and of Apples iPads, etc.. Simply put, it's not my thing.
As for the upcoming iMac, it would serve all my needs for 4K and/or any other video editing. I only ingest multicam once in a great while and I don't shoot RED and/or raw material. In addition, I do not have a 4K monitor. A maxed out 27" iMac with retina 5K display would serve me well for all my video editing needs with my simple equipment. I.M.O. a Mac Pro would be a huge mistake and waste of money for me. As I stated in thre OP, I'm not a professional. I'd like to add, I do not do video work for a living. Video editing for me is just a big hobby that I really enjoy doing for family, friends and sometimes for a few dollars. As always, I sincerely appreciate all your help, input, and thoughts. Thanks, Ray


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 8, 2016 at 12:04:14 pm

Ray, you're right about the latest MacBook Pro (late 2016) having Thunderbolt 3. It does, and the same port doubles up as USB-C and power. Its on back order at the Apple Store and the estimated shipping is 4-5 weeks now.
The basic config runs $ 2,800. The maxed out MacBook Pro will run $ 3,500. (2.9GHz quad Core i7, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Radeon Pro 460 GPU 4GB, 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports)

And yes, the Pegasus3 is Thunderbolt 3 and will work with this new MacBook Pro. Even the older Pegasus2 with Thunderbolt 2 will work fine with the new MacBook Pro (with a Thunderbolt3 to Thunderbolt2 adapter now $29)
AFAIK, if you attach the new MacBook Pro to this new Thunderbolt 3 Pegasus, it will also charge your MacBook Pro.

For an external TB3 monitor, LG is shipping the 4k ultra fine display at a new reduced price of $ 524. Connecting the MacBook pro to this monitor gives you two USB-C ports and presumably also charges the MBP.
To the extra ports (USB-C) on the monitor, you can connect other USB-C devices or older USB3/2 devices (drives, keyboards, mice) with a USB-C-USB3 adapter which now costs $ 9.

Going forward, it appears certain that the new iMac and new MacPro, and maybe even the new Mac mini, whenever they ship, will also have Thunderbolt3/USB-C ports, so your TB3 Pegasus will be compatible with them. And, like Bob said, many vendors will come out with Thunderbolt3 and USB-C RAIDs and drives. For the first time we will have an ultra fast port (like way twice USB3's 5 Gbps) which will be common in Mac and PC systems. Thunderbolt 1 and 2 weren't very common on PCs so few vendors introduced Thunderbolt RAIDs.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Ray Sherman
Re: Needed: Thunderbolt 3 RAID Set-Up Recommendations
on Nov 8, 2016 at 12:39:13 pm

Thanks for your input........ I can't wait to put my hands on a (2016) MacBook Pro! I believe it will be an awesome laptop for many applications. Furthermore, I'm anticipating/hoping that the new 27" iMac with Retina 5K Display will be out early in 2017. This would me my video editing station for running FCPX, Motion, Compressor, etc. with my 4K and 1080 footage. My biggest issue currently is what I need for a great disc array to run everything smoothly without breaking the bank. Thanks again for your input. Ray


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