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Neil Sadwelkar
Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 1:38:02 pm

I've bought many a Promise Pegasus Thunderbolt RAID for my clients and for self too. In the past some of the units I've peeped inside, (with the RAID off and no data on it, of course) showed Hitachi drives, probably the enterprise variety.
A couple of weeks ago I took delivery of a new Pegasus 12 TB unit, and within a few days one drive showed fail. When I popped it out, I noticed the drive inside was a Seagate Barracuda desktop variety, the one with the model number ending with 'DM001'. Has anyone else noticed this switch to 'normal' drives instead of enterprise drives in a Promise?
Maybe its because Hitachi's drive business got sold to WD. or something like that?

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 2:04:44 pm

Hi Neal,

interesting. Can you check which hitachi drives have been in the chassis before they switched to barracudas? If the drives have HUA before the serial number, its enterprise class, if they have got HDS before the serial number its desktop drives. The barracudas are good drives - so to me not as good as HUA's but the same quality than HDS drives.
It could be that the change of the manufacturer (WD is building the HUA drives, Toshiba is building the HDS drives, both still beeing sold as Hitachis) is the reason.
A drive normally fails either at the beginning of its lifespan (first 6 month) or at the end (after 50.000 working hours), there are always things happening out of the row. So if one drive fails at the beginning, there is nothing unusual happening. You will get a replacement.

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 2:39:48 pm

Hi Neal,

the barracuda drive DM001 (2TB) is in the drive compatability list of sonnet not recommended for Video editing. The 3TB version of the DM001 is not even listed.
For me an alarming signal not using this type of drive in an array system.
cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 2:44:09 pm

This Seagate Barracuda is recommenden for Video editing:
Seagate Barracuda XT, #ST33000651AS (3TB)
Seagate Barracuda, #ST2000DL003 (2TB)

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Eric Hansen
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 3:35:24 pm

hey Neil

You freaked me out for a second. I popped all the drives on my 4 R4's and they're all Hitachis. I bought them back in August though.

As i posted in another thread, OWC did something similar when a purchased a Qx2 about a year ago. Due to HD shortages, they switched the HDs. They were Seagate Barracudas, the ones not designed for RAIDs. The Qx2 was slow, unstable and kept ejecting from my computer. I sent it back for a refund.

e

Eric Hansen
Production Workflow Designer / Consultant / Colorist / DIT
http://www.erichansen.tv


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 4:10:12 pm

[Eric Hansen] "They were Seagate Barracudas, the ones not designed for RAIDs."

Eric,

Not meaning to be confrontational, but I do keep seeing you repeating this concept/myth about desktop hard drives not being suitable for RAIDs, and that's just not accurate.

As I responded to Neil, most of the very best in the business have never used enterprise level drives in their arrays, and that's quote easily verifiable.

FYI, a simple cost-benefit analysis comparing today's excellent high-quality SATA drives vs enterprise level drives in a "typical" non-enterprise media environment (not absolutely mission-critical), will indicate that there is no appreciable benefit to the customer in using enterprise level drives - in fact, it will show that in a RAID 5 or 6 configuration, when all factors are considered, including the added cost, the typical MTBF, etc., the cost of the longer warranty is not worth the extra $$$.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Eric Hansen
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 4:22:34 pm

Yes, certain desktop drives are designed to work in RAIDs. some are not. I had this faulty Qx2 a while ago. The drives that it contained were not the drives that my clients' previous Qx2's had. I looked up the part numbers and Seagate specifically noted in their materials for this part number, that they were not designed for RAID use. They were designed to be used individually and to be energy efficient. That was specific to that line of drives (and not all Barracudas), not the whole Seagate brand or Desktop drives in general.

When you purchase drives, you must double check that the desktop-labeled drive you're looking at can be used in RAIDs because some cannot. Unfortunately, the terms are being confused when a few years ago, enterprise more or less meant RAID.

the key in your statement is "high quality". unfortunately, in the name of cost cutting, some vendors are replacing the RAID-quality desktop drives in their RAIDs with lower quality desktop drives that aren't designed for RAID use.

sorry if what i wrote was misconstrued. I think I need another cup of coffee. :)

Eric Hansen
Production Workflow Designer / Consultant / Colorist / DIT
http://www.erichansen.tv


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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 7:59:56 pm

I will start by saying this is not a personal attack on anyone from this forum.

These are the facts stated by the drive manufacturers and not by Maxx Digital. The three drive manufacturers we use are Toshiba, HGST (AKA Hitachi and owned by WD now)and WD. ALL of these companies insist that if you use their drives in a RAID environment, you must use enterprise drives. A very experienced storage rep was in my office earlier and stated that Seagate has the same policy.

Now, that does not mean that the desk top will not work. It only means if you have a problem, they will not support you if you are using desktop drives in a RAID environment. So, I would hope that if companies are selling multi-platform RAIDs, that they are following the rules made by the guys who are making the drives. If you chose to break the rules, then don't expect to have support from the drive manufacturers.

I have been selling drives for more than 24 years and the one thing that never changes is that the individual manufacturers make the rules. Right or wrong they support the product and decide what works and what doesn't work. You should always check the controller or storage systems manufacturers' compatibility lists to see what they recommend.

So, save money at your own risk and the risk of your customers' data, and in doing so tell the billion dollar companies you know better than they do. We will offer desktop drives for the right environments, which has worked for more than 14 years at Maxx Digital.

Check the websites of hard drive and RAID controller manufacturers, if you think I am misquoting the manufacturers. See below what WD has to say.


Difference between Desktop edition (WD Blue, WD Green and WD Black) and RAID (Enterprise) edition drives

Important: The article below compares the differences between Western Digital Desktop edition (WD Blue, WD Green and WD Black) drives and our Enterprise (WD RE and Velociraptors). This article does not apply to WD Red drives which are designed specifically to be used in a NAS enclosure.

<-- -->
Western Digital manufactures desktop edition hard drives and RAID Edition (RE) hard drives. Each type of hard drive is designed to work specifically as a stand-alone drive, or in a multi-drive RAID environment.
If you install and use a desktop edition hard drive connected to a RAID controller, the drive may not work correctly. This is caused by the normal error recovery procedure that a desktop edition hard drive uses.
Note: There are a few cases where the manufacturer of the RAID controller have designed their cards to work with specific model Desktop drives. If this is the case you would need to contact the manufacturer of that controller for any support on that drive while it is used in a RAID environment. Desktop Class Hard Drives are tested and recommended for use in consumer-type RAID applications (RAID-0 / RAID-1). For more information about using a Desktop hard drive in a RAID please see Answer ID 996: Support for WD desktop drives in a RAID 0 or RAID 1 configuration.


When an error is found on a desktop edition hard drive, the drive will enter into a deep recovery cycle to attempt to repair the error, recover the data from the problematic area, and then reallocate a dedicated area to replace the problematic area. This process can take up to 2 minutes depending on the severity of the issue. Most RAID controllers allow a very short amount of time for a hard drive to recover from an error. If a hard drive takes too long to complete this process, the drive will be dropped from the RAID array. Most RAID controllers allow from 7 to 15 seconds for error recovery before dropping a hard drive from an array. Western Digital does not recommend installing desktop edition hard drives in an enterprise environment (on a RAID controller).
Western Digital RAID edition hard drives have a feature called TLER (Time Limited Error Recovery) which stops the hard drive from entering into a deep recovery cycle. The hard drive will only spend 7 seconds to attempt to recover. This means that the hard drive will not be dropped from a RAID array. While TLER is designed for RAID environments, a drive with TLER enabled will work with no performance decrease when used in non-RAID environments.
Critical: WD Black, WD Green, and WD Blue hard drives are not recommended for and are not warranted for use in RAID environments utilizing Enterprise HBAs and/or expanders and in multi-bay chassis, as they are not designed for, nor tested in, these specific types of RAID applications. For all Business Critical RAID applications, please consider WD’s Enterprise Hard Drives that are specifically designed with RAID-specific, time-limited error recovery (TLER), are tested extensively in 24x7 RAID applications, and include features like enhanced RAFF technology and thermal extended burn-in testing.

http://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1397/~/difference-between-d...

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
21562 Newland Street
Huntington Beach , Ca 92646
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 8:03:47 pm

This is a good article as well.


http://download.intel.com/support/motherboards/server/sb/enterprise_class_v...


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 3:47:33 pm

Neil,

1) Toshiba acquired Hitachi's hard drive division

2) I can assure you, Promise does not use enterprise level hard drives in it's Pegasus enclosures. They could not afford to do so at the price point at which they sell.

3) It's a myth that enterprise level drives are required for RAID arrays. Many of the very best in the business, including most of those who advertise right here on the Cow, have never used enterprise level drives, except by special order.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Eric Hansen
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 4:03:07 pm

This is true regarding the Pegasus RAIDs. I just popped a drive out and looked up the part number. it's a Deskstar 7K3000. According to Hitachi's data sheet, it's recommended for "video editing arrays".

i believe some of the structural tuning that goes into enterprise drives is for when you have a bunch of 16+ drive RAIDs all in one standing rack. that's a lot of vibration.

The problem i've noticed isn't that some vendors are swapping non-enterprise drives into their RAIDs. it's that they're swapping in drives that were not designed to run in RAIDs at all.

Eric Hansen
Production Workflow Designer / Consultant / Colorist / DIT
http://www.erichansen.tv


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Bob Zelin
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - reply from Bob Zelin
on Jun 5, 2013 at 5:51:30 pm

Now David, I am going to make some statements here. This is NOT a personal attack on you. It's just some statements, so take it easy. We are friends -

ISSUE # 1 -

You state -
Toshiba acquired Hitachi's hard drive division

I reply -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HGST

Hitachi Global Storage Technologies was founded in 2003 as a merger of the hard disk drive businesses of IBM and Hitachi.[2] Hitachi paid IBM US$2.05 billion for its HDD business.[3]

On March 8, 2012, Western Digital (WD) acquired Hitachi Global Storage Technologies for $3.9 billion in cash and 25 million shares of WD common stock valued at approximately $0.9 billion. The deal resulted in Hitachi, Ltd. owning approximately 10 percent of WD shares outstanding, and reserving the right to designate two individuals to the board of directors of WD. It was agreed that WD would operate with WD Technologies and HGST as wholly owned subsidiaries and they would compete in the marketplace with separate brands and product lines.[4][5][6]

To address the requirements of regulatory agencies, in May 2012 WD divested to Toshiba assets that enabled Toshiba to manufacture and sell 3.5-inch hard drives for the desktop and consumer electronics markets.[


ISSUE # 2 -
Enterprise drives -
you state: It's a myth that enterprise level drives are required for RAID arrays

REPLY - I have used Seagate SCSI and SATA drives for my entire career until January 2009. In December 2008, January 2009, I put together an early Final Share shared storage system with Seagate desktop SATA drives. I had nothing but failures one after another. We were in a panic. We blamed everyone. Ultimately the following companies told us to ABANDON SEAGATE DRIVES and switch immediately to Hitachi Enterprise series drives. The companies that told me this were the following -
ATTO Technology
JMR
Small Tree
Areca
CI Design

While you and ProMax may be 100% correct, LET ME ASSURE YOU that both ATTO Technology and Areca Technology Corporation DEMAND that enterprise series drives be used with their RAID arrays. I deal with the exact same engineering contacts that ProMax deals with for these two companies, so I have no idea of where ProMax comes up with the statement that
"Many of the very best in the business, including most of those who advertise right here on the Cow, have never used enterprise level drives, except by special order."
because both ATTO and Areca have told me OVER AND OVER that we should ONLY be using Enterprise series disk drives.

NOW, I am not saying that you are ProMax are wrong. What I am saying is that the vendors that both you and I rely on specifically state that ENTERPRISE series drives should only be used.

from the Western Digital Caviar Black website -
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=760

WD Black hard drives are tested and recommended for use in PCs, high-performance workstations and notebook computers.*
Desktop drives are not recommended for use in RAID environments, please consider using WD Red hard drives for home and small office 1-5 bay NAS systems and WD Enterprise hard drives for rackmount and >5 bay NAS systems.


Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - reply from Bob Zelin
on Jun 5, 2013 at 10:14:17 pm

Bobs comment is exactly what we have encountered over the years:
We have tried to work with Hitachi HDS drives in a raid. The drives worked fine, but we've had 4 disc failures in a 16 bay raid within two years. We've switched to Hitachi Ultrastars - one disc failure in 3 years but with 64 drives.
For us the only disc we put in a raid array are Ultrastars.
We have made good experiences with some seagate barracudas, built in three La Cie Desktop drives. So the big manufacturers build good storage, and for me I would always recommend enterprise storage in any raid array, because its simply better, more reliable in the end cheaper, because its lifespan is bigger than a desktop drive.

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - reply from Bob Zelin
on Jun 5, 2013 at 10:25:25 pm

Well said. I could not agree more. But I guess some companies like to put Desk top in the storage platform to save money. NOT !!!!!

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
21562 Newland Street
Huntington Beach , Ca 92646
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 10:03:13 pm

SEE BELOW THE DIRECT QUOTE FROM HGST ......

Hi Ron,

HGST doesn't recommend using our "Deskstar" drives in applications that require multiple drives in a single chassis and raid environments.

"Deskstar" drives are designed for 8 hours per day x 5 days per week single drive enclosure applications.

"Enterprise Ultrastar" drives are designed for 24 hours per day x 7 days per week always spinning / reading / writing with multiple drives in the same chassis.

Cheers

Mark Stallion
Area Sales Manager
OEM, Western Region
HGST a Western Digital Company
3403 Yerba Buena Rd, San Jose, CA 95135
Mark.Stallion@hgst.com

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
21562 Newland Street
Huntington Beach , Ca 92646
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Rainer Wirth
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 5, 2013 at 10:27:23 pm

So back to Neil,

my recommondation for you is: Send back the OWC stuff, buy a raid enclosure which fits your needs and put some enterprise HDs in it.
Less hustle for years, less problems to think about.

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Bob Zelin
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - what professionals use
on Jun 5, 2013 at 10:48:02 pm

Hi -
I do not have everyone information - but I have some information here -

AVID uses Seagate Constellation enterprise drives in their AVID ISIS 5000

Facilis uses Western Digital RE series Enterprise drives in their Terrablock product

Small Tree uses Hitachi Enterprise series drives in their Titanium series (and in everything else)

Maxx Digital uses Hitachi Enterprise series drives in their Final Share system

Tolis Group uses Seagate Constellation Enterprise series drives in
the Argest archive product.

I would love to hear from others what they find in fine manufacturers like GB Labs Space, Apace Systems, Isilon, EditShare, Studio Network Solutions, etc.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - what professionals use
on Jun 5, 2013 at 10:54:50 pm

from the Studio Network Solutions website -

http://www.studionetworksolutions.com/evo/tech/

Available Drives

256GB, 512GB SSD
2TB, 3TB, and 4TB Enterprise-class RAID-edition 6Gbps SATA drives


ENTERPRISE ENTERPRISE ENTERPRISE ENTERPRISE

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - what professionals use
on Jun 5, 2013 at 10:56:25 pm

from the Sonnet Technology site -

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiondrivemoduleplatinum.html

Key Features

500GB, 1TB, or 2TB capacity with 32MB cache Enterprise/RAID Edition hard drives(1)

3TB capacity with 64MB cache Enterprise/RAID Edition hard drive(1)


Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - I ain't done yet !
on Jun 5, 2013 at 11:00:01 pm

OTHER WORLD COMPUTING Jupiter series -

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/ER0830008TE/

•8 ports, 6Gb/s SAS 2.1 compliant


Standard Mechanism


•8 x 1.0TB* HGST Ultrastar A7K2000**


*1GB = 1,000,000,000 bytes. Total accessible capacity varies depending upon operating environment (typically 5-10% less). The actual total capacity will depend on your own defined file settings/preferences.


Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - I ain't done yet !
on Jun 5, 2013 at 11:35:11 pm

Bob,

with your picture above and your magic words behind you,
you are the first and truly magician in the holy world of Array and Raid systems.
Take it with humor,
you are right.

cheers

Rainer

At the moment I'm watching "The Legend of the seeker", forgive me.

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Tim Wilson
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - what professionals use
on Jun 5, 2013 at 11:31:54 pm

JMR, Small Tree, Facilis, Western Digital, AVID, Maxx Digital, Tolis, Studio Network Solutions, Areca, CI Design and ATTO all call for Enterprise drives.

Does that mean that I have to use them? They're pretty expensive, Bob.

(Just trying to save some time until somebody else posts this question for real.)


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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives - what professionals use
on Jun 6, 2013 at 12:00:22 am

Good question Ron
Only if they want them to support your system. And for those who don't need support well good luck.

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
21562 Newland Street
Huntington Beach , Ca 92646
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Joe Engledow
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 7, 2013 at 7:26:30 pm

Hi Neil,

You can access the make and model of the hard drives in your Promise Pegasus R-Series with no need to unplug the physical drive. Just run the "Promise Utility" client app on your Thunderbolt Mac.

As well, from within Promise Utility, you can read the Event Log and generate a Service Report, which a Promise Technical Support person would be happy to review with you.

We regularly test the hard drives which are on the market and publish updates to the Hardware Compatibility List, which Promise and Apple work together on, to bring you the fastest Thunderbolt RAID experience for video editing. The current list is here on Promise.com's Download Center:

http://promise.com/support/download_file.aspx?rsn=1287&m=205®ion=en-US

Any one of these hard drives will work in the Promise Pegasus. Use of drives which are not listed is experimental, and may not work.

Please make an account on our technical support web site, http://support.promise.com. From there you can make support requests on the record under specific serial numbers and we can establish a case history for warranty replacement of the drives.

Joe Engledow, Technical Support
Promise Technology US, http://support.promise.com
+1 (408) 228-1500


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 8, 2013 at 8:07:41 am

Joe,

Thanks for your help. I unseated the drive basically to just reseat it in case that helped. That's when I noticed it was a Seagate as I'm used to seeing Hitachi in the Promise Utility.

From your link on qualified drives it looks like these desktop drives (as in non-enterprise drives) have been tested and qualify for the Pegasus. Which is fine, as long as they work fine.

We noticed the drive failure on our unit on the 31st May. Being a weekend, we received a response from the Promise rep in India only on 3rd Jun when they sent us a link to register and report the failure. We've done that on the 4th or 5th June I think. And now we are awaiting a replacement.

Hope to have this sorted over the next week. And I hope there are replacement drives in my country and they don't have to be shipped from overseas.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Paul King
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 11, 2013 at 3:43:06 pm

This is one long thread full of people who do not have the full story when it comes to enterprise vs desktop.

Most unreliable enterprise drive - Seagate SCSI. Had our greatest percentage of failures with Cheetahs both 10k and 15k.
Back then there was a clear difference between enterprise and desktop - SCSI vs PATA.

Along comes SATA with a better connection than PATA and much better capacity and potential than SCSI.

Controller manufacturers adopted unified controllers early (SAS/SATA) and back then (2005) none of them had an issue with desktop drives for RAID. David is right, most workstation storage box vendors used desktop drives and most were Hitachi.

Back then reliability was more an issue of where you bought the drives than what model or brand they were. We bought all our drives through Synnex and we had a 25% failure rate, regardless of brand. They mistreated the drives in transit (a WD rep who witnessed this told me).
We switched to different supplies and the failure rates dropped to 1%.

Around 2005 we used desktop drives in RAIDs, most predominantly WD. At the demise of SCSI and after the rise of SAS, the drive venders brought out enterprise variants with SATA interfaces. AT that time they started to BS about enterprise drives. WD took it one step further and crippled their Black series to stop people using them in RAIDs. Adaptec had 2TB FAUX Blacks on their compatibility list, I bought 24 of them, had issues and so Adaptec took them off their compatibility list. WD could have fixed them but sighted that they were desktop and not suitable for RAID. I hacked their firmware and made them work anyway, but never bought another WD drive again.

We switched to Hitachi. Bob - the desktop drives 7kx000 were rated for 24/7 use not 8/5. That's why we went that way, and they worked fine until WD finished them off.

So why do we have enterprise drives? Greed. Same reason Avid sold Newscutter for $1000 more than Media Composer - "they're broadcasters so they will pay more for it", direct quote from Avid.

Everyone here that has advocated enterprise drives - go to every vendors compatibility list and have a look at how many desktop drives appear. Most of them are early models (2005-2008) but Adaptec and LSI have current desktop drives on their lists. They preface this by saying they recommend enterprise though.

Vibration? A current desktop drive would have less operational vibration than an enterprise drive from 3 years ago.

WD Red - what a crock of s... Only up to 5 bay NAS - what BS and WD here in Australia contradicted this during their sales tour.

Only fundamental difference is TLER (WD term) and this is a real issue. However from 500 Hitachi drives in RAID 5 we have only had 3 drop out from a TLER event. Solution? Put them back in and let the RAID rebuild. However if I use desktop drives now (Seagate Barracuda is the only model left) then I set them up as RAID 6.
How many guys here have had to rebuild a 60TB RAID5? It's a nervous wait whether it's desktop or enterprise so RAID6 is the way to go.

To sum up, enterprise is a crock and motivated by greed. The physical drives are likely the same (albeit the enterprise probably test better out the factory) with only the firmware difference. It's an excuse for making money and probably a sound corporate strategy with so much storage going cloud based.

So if you're on Mac it's Areca (they are basically LSI controllers with a Mac driver) and Constellations. If you're on a PC I'd do Adaptec 7 and Barracudas. My most recent RAID is Adaptec 7 with 16 Barracudas in RAID6. 2100MB/sec from desktop drives seems good enough for a workstation. Beyond this I wouldn't bother with mechanical HDD. Adaptec 7 with SSd is good for 6GB/sec.

So everyone here has been correct in part, but there is still a lot of misinformation which only strengthens the HDD vendors bottom line.



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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 11, 2013 at 6:19:59 pm

Paul,

I don't think anybody disputed that "enterprise" drives are desktops drives that passed the enterprise exam: better tolerances, less vibration, longer warranty, different firmware. They may all come from the same batch; those that pass certain tests, get the "enterprise" label.

Some enterprise drives though just don't exist in desktop versions - SAS SFF ones: full duplex, longer I/O queues, and really expensive. (Love those, wish there were desktop versions.)

The real question is, does the enterprise label offer tangible benefits for the price? I think it does for some, and does not for others. I am not sure it's all about greed though.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 11, 2013 at 10:50:48 pm

Paul writes -
How many guys here have had to rebuild a 60TB RAID5? It's a nervous wait whether it's desktop or enterprise so RAID6 is the way to go.


REPLY -
why, that would be me. And I have been in unfortunately several situations in 2012, where I had catastrophic failure from RAID 5's that did not rebuild (while using my trusty Hitachi Enterprise drives). And I too have seen these drives "fail" due to time out errors, only to find out that there was really nothing wrong with the drives. So I too, do RAID 6 these days, unless the client wildly objects.

With that said, I don't care what the facts are. All I know is that I deal with the same vendors of host adaptor cards that you do. And these vendors state USE BRAND XXXX DRIVES. And if I don't follow their instructions, and I get catastrophic failures (which I have had in the past multiple times), these same vendors basically say "you idiot - we TOLD YOU to use the enterprise drives". And since I know exactly who ProMax uses for host adaptor cards (I use the same people) I know very well that they potentially face the exact same situation that I do, with catastrophic failure. And I don't need to have my client looking at me in one direction (what an idiot we hired), and from the other direction having the host adaptor company looking at me saying "we told you so - you idiot".

I was in this exact situation about 3 years ago, where I DARED to use non enterprise drives in a 16 bay array RAID 5, the client had catastrophic failure, and after calling me, they called the host adaptor company (one of the ones you mentioned in your post), and they told them that "Bob Zelin" used the WRONG drives in the drive array, so of course, they lost all their data. This is what you face in real life. As Alex said - they are all the same drives, on the same assembly line, and the enterprise ones pass "bad block" tests. But they fail too. SO Paul, when YOU lose all your data one day, are you going to tell your boss "eeh, it's all the same crap", when the manufacturers of the components that you used tell him that you are an idiot ? You tell me.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Paul King
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 12, 2013 at 12:07:51 am

Bob

I haven't lost any data.
Using desktop drives doesn't make a difference to overall data integrity, just TLER susceptibility.

Was it Areca? Tell me if it was.

There are other reasons for RAIDs failing than drives themselves, but it's easy to blame the drives rather than the controller.

But Bob, if they say "DONT USE THEM AT ALL" why do they test them and approve them for use? Why are desktop drives on their compatibility list?

WD introduced head parking into their Black drives when idle for 12.7 seconds and claimed it was an environmental feature. This stopped them from being used in RAIDs but also made them terrible drives for desktop use. Yes they were the fastest desktop series, but they took 1.5 seconds to unpark the heads and had a head parking limit of 300,000 times over their life cycle. That's the kind of BS they went to, to stop desktop drives being used in RAIDs. No other vendor had head parking so why did WD introduce it in a performance line?

Again the only technical issue is TLER. If you're RAID6 then it's mostly mitigated.

Please Bob, you have every right to mention who's controller you had catastrophic failures with. I might have answers for you that could get you out of trouble next time. Because if it's a controller issue then there will be a next time. Lets face it, the controller vendor hung you out to dry when the customer called them.



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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 12, 2013 at 12:20:59 am

Paul
This is not a technical debate on what works. I think you have great knowledge of hard drives.However, If the manufacture says to use a certain model drive with RAID then you have two choices. Either you follow instructions or you do not follow instructions. All the technical mubo jumbo will not change the fact that if Hithaci ( HGST),Wd, Seagate says "they do not support any RAID that is built with desktop drives" then that is their rule.

So the next time you are pulled over for speeding try and give the cop some technical reason for going over the speed limit and see what he says.Rules are Rules like them or not.

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
21562 Newland Street
Huntington Beach , Ca 92646
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Paul King
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 12, 2013 at 12:59:04 am

Sorry Ron

I did not advocate using drives that are NOT recommended by controller vendors. Hitachi desktop drives were certified for 24/7 RAID use before WD bought them. Also Toshiba do all their own testing and they had desktop drives compatible with RAID (but maybe not now). Barracudas are on the approval list for Adaptec Series 5, 6 and 7.

A Barracuda here is $92 and a Constellation is $172. There's a decision to be made here when both drives are tested and approved.
What's likely to happen is Seagate will change their firmware to stop them being used. They wont tell Adaptec and then customers will get stuck with drives that wont work. Adaptec's get-out-of-jail will be "we dont recommend the use of desktop drives". This is what I mentioned happened to me with WD FAUX Blacks. However the same thing happened with WD RE drives. Difference was that WD had to fix their firmware which they had to do because they were an enterprise product (although I'm not sure they fixed them completely as they still had to be jumpered as SATA150 to work on Series 5 controllers - SATA300).

So I'm just pointing out that THEY have approved the use of certain desktop drives. It's just that they don't recommend them due to TLER. So if you're RAID6 then you would be fine to use them. RAID5 puts you at too much risk.

So everything I have said is supported by vendors.
The technical stuff is to clarify these positions and so there is no confusion (as it seemed there was here}.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 12, 2013 at 1:41:50 am

Paul,

Both Ron and Bob are focusing attention on a very minor aspect of the bigger picture this discussion should really be about, i.e. DATA SECURITY."

Whether a person or company uses enterprise or desktop drives makes little difference in the real world, because no RAID protection scheme or longer hard drive warranty will ever provide enough data security on its own. All hard drives will fail, no matter how much money you spend on them and no matter how long they are covered under warranty.

The only way to insure real data security is to deploy a 3-tiered data protection scheme incorporating 1) online protected RAID; 2) nearline backup; and, a long-term tape archive, preferably with a second copy kept off premises.

Anyone arguing that chucking lots of dough at enterprise level drives significantly increases data protection is either 1) missing the point, or, 2) confusing the issue.

The bottom line is, at ProMAX we would rather have our customers spend their money on things that make an actual difference in their data protection scheme, such as backup and archive, in addition to the RAID-5 and RAID-6 protection we offer with the bulk of our storage products. If they want enterprise drives too, we will provide them, but we know they simply aren't worth the extra premium to the majority of our customers.

ProMAX looks at the entire picture - we incorporate dual redundant power supplies, dual mirrored SSD boot drives, and our ultimate “fail safe,” USB OS recovery - these are "extras" we include that really do count in enterprise-level data security. So, to imply we are cutting corners or simply saving money by using desktop drives is misleading, and only addresses only a small part of a much bigger discussion.

For the record, ProMAX now manufactures more than 75% of the products we sell, including many of the highest rated and highest performing shared storage servers on the market - so, we test, and we vet, and we certify what works and what doesn't, because we support what we manufacture. And, we don't follow the rules - we establish the rules.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 12, 2013 at 9:32:49 pm

David writes -
Paul,

Both Ron and Bob are focusing attention on a very minor aspect of the bigger picture this discussion should really be about, i.e. DATA SECURITY."

Whether a person or company uses enterprise or desktop drives makes little difference in the real world, because no RAID protection scheme or longer hard drive warranty will ever provide enough data security on its own. All hard drives will fail, no matter how much money you spend on them and no matter how long they are covered under warranty.


REPLY - DAVID IS 100 % correct.

The only way to insure real data security is to deploy a 3-tiered data protection scheme incorporating 1) online protected RAID; 2) nearline backup; and, a long-term tape archive, preferably with a second copy kept off premises.

REPLY - DAVID IS 100% correct !



The bottom line is, at ProMAX we would rather have our customers spend their money on things that make an actual difference in their data protection scheme, such as backup and archive, in addition to the RAID-5 and RAID-6 protection we offer with the bulk of our storage products.

REPLY - here in the real world, where everyone wants to spend ZERO money, it is very very difficult to convince most users to buy even a single raw SATA drive backup solution with a eSATA toaster, least not a tier 2 near line backup, or more important, an LTO solution.
Should everyone be backing up ? Should everyone be using LTO - OF COURSE THEY SHOULD. So, why don't they all do this - because they DONT WANT TO SPEND THE MONEY.


David writes -
For the record, ProMAX now manufactures more than 75% of the products we sell, including many of the highest rated and highest performing shared storage servers on the market - so, we test, and we vet, and we certify what works and what doesn't, because we support what we manufacture. And, we don't follow the rules - we establish the rules.

REPLY - I wish I was smart enough to tell ATTO, Areca, and Highpoint what to do. I wish I had the clout to tell Apple what to do. So I humbly state that I never establish the rules. I follow the guidelines that are told to me by companies like Apple, ATTO, Areca, Highpoint, Myricom, Solarflare, Small Tree, etc. I have to make the ASSUMPUTION that those guys actually understand the products that they designed, and I follow their rules. And when things don't work out, I know that I have someone to call and say "hey, it's not working".

And sorry Paul King - I am not throwing one of my vendors under the bus, even though I got burned by them. There are a limited number of vendors that make hardware for Macintosh Computers, and I am not about to burn bridges. These companies eventually fix their mistakes. But no matter what, David's statements about multi level backup is SO TRUE, yet I know for a fact that almost no one follows these rules.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 12, 2013 at 11:19:40 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "...this discussion should really be about, i.e. DATA SECURITY."

The discussion was originally about the differences between desktop and enterprise drives, and various brands, wasn't it?

Data security isn't the only component of what matters to an editor: reliability and performance (i.e. uptime) are up there too. If your array is rebuilding three days in a year bringing performance down to unacceptable levels in addition to higher risks of data loss while the array is degraded - that costs money, too.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 13, 2013 at 12:19:24 am

[Alex Gerulaitis] "Data security isn't the only component of what matters to an editor: reliability and performance (i.e. uptime) are up there too. If your array is rebuilding three days in a year bringing performance down to unacceptable levels in addition to higher risks of data loss while the array is degraded - that costs money, too."

Actually Alex, reliabilty, performance, and cost are all equally important. One has to balance all three factors, not just those that make for a convenient argument.

And, what I've said all along is that a cost benefit analysis for "most" users in this space, with the exception of mission critical users, such as broadcast facilities and perhaps large post houses, will point to the fact that the siginificant cost of enterprise drives far outweighs the benefits, as concerns about the reliability and performance for desktop drives have proven to be virtually non-existant.

In the past, when hard drives were far less robust, reliability was much more of an issue than it is today. We hardly ever see hard drive failures these days, and so the extra cost of enterprise drives for only a longer warranty period is simply not worth the extra dough for most customers.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 12, 2013 at 12:37:59 am

[Paul King] "Using desktop drives doesn't make a difference to overall data integrity, just TLER susceptibility."

Just differences in MTBF and URE numbers alone make enterprise drives two to 100 times more reliable than desktop ones. It's another matter whether (a) you can believe published numbers, (b) it justifies the cost difference if you do.


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Simon Blackledge
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 12, 2013 at 11:39:41 am

Dont want to touch Seagate since that aweful FW mess years ago that burnt me..

Hitachi appear to have removed the part in the info on Deskstars that says video raids. tut tut...


Enterprise drives in some cases are different. They have larger heads.

These are new and look promising for near line/NAS

http://www.wdc.com/wdproducts/library/SpecSheet/ENG/2879-771475.pdf

Am on 2nd RMA for Deskstar for our Pegasus

You can buy a spare.. but it comes with sled and is.. wait.. £260 + Tax! lol...



S



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 13, 2013 at 12:29:07 am

[Alex Gerulaitis] "Just differences in MTBF and URE numbers alone make enterprise drives two to 100 times more reliable than desktop ones. It's another matter whether (a) you can believe published numbers, (b) it justifies the cost difference if you do."

Sorry Alex, but there's absolutely nothing real-world about those numbers, and so I'm gonna have to ask for your source on this one.

And FYI, the quantitative measurements used on enterprise and desktop drives are completely different, by design, so it is virtually impossible to use the data supplied by manufacturers to achieve a true Apples to Apples comparison.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 13, 2013 at 12:54:04 am

All

This could go on for days. So this is what I get from Davids post. I guess Pro Max sells NON Enterprise drives and it works for them. If you want Enterprise then buy Maxx Digital because that is all we use. As far as all the back and forth I don't care as if my clients asks " what drives do you use" I say " Enterprise" ... So everybody is a winner here on the Cow. But TMI is starting to kick in.

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
21562 Newland Street
Huntington Beach , Ca 92646
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 13, 2013 at 2:55:10 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Sorry Alex, but there's absolutely nothing real-world about those numbers, and so I'm gonna have to ask for your source on this one."

Didn't say anything about the real world, only "published". If you have anything real-world, would love to hear about it.

The TL;DR version:

As far as "real-world": there is a number of studies on the subject including this one where published AFR, MTBF, URE rate numbers deviate from real-world ones - however:

1. Nobody I know compared reliability of desktop vs. enterprise drives in any scientific manner.

2. Doing a statistically sound comparison like that is truly a gargantuan task not easily accomplished.

This is why we have to go by published numbers - which support reliability figures I mentioned above.

As Ron and Bob said several times, there's also the matter of what's supported and warranted for a specific purpose. Few desktop drives if any are warranted for high density parity RAIDs with a 24/7 duty and if you're using them for that purpose, the customer should sign a waiver.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 19, 2013 at 12:27:57 am

Interesting discussion. On MTBF the published figures seem a bit meaningless. Desktop drives have a MTBF of 35 years. Enterprise, 70-200 years roughly. What does it mean? I'd say not a whole lot. It's a reliability measurement, but not a particularly enlightening one. I'm sure the dud drives talked about here had identical MTBFs to their competitors. So how is it that their MTBFs were not lower? Fudged figures or a test designed to produce a certain result? And if it were truly a statistical test you wouldn't end up with such round numbers. A lot to be skeptical about.


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 19, 2013 at 12:50:25 am

[Brett Sherman] "A lot to be skeptical about."

If you have a component with an MTBF of five years, a system with two such components working side-by-side will have an MTBF of 2.5 years. When you have racks with hundreds of drives, those MTBF numbers quickly become quite meaningful.

That doesn't mean MTBF numbers are real though. Google didn't find them so, for instance. It could be a very nice and real conspiracy and there could be a slew of class action suits brewing. Or, it could be just the reality of the industry where reliability is such a complex issue, that it can't be reliably (pun intended) measured.

For single drives, AFR numbers are easier to digest though.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 19, 2013 at 2:58:30 am

Statistically, you can't do that sort of multiplication with MTBF. If it were "Average Time Before Failure" maybe. But MTBF simply means half fail before, half fail after with no indication of the distribution of when they fail. So 50% could fail within 1 minute of plugging in and 50% could fail after 300,000 hours with the same MTBF. Theoretically of course.

I'm not sure it's a conspiracy. But I definitely think manufacturers are generating the numbers that they want. If manufacturers wanted to provide more better reliability data, they could. DOA rates, failure within 1 month rates, Scan errors per X time, all of those would likely be more predictive of reliability. But the manufactures like MTBF because it indicates a staggered reliability from desktop to enterprise without indicating significant differences within the same class of drives. If it were meaningful every single model should score differently.



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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 19, 2013 at 3:02:59 am

[Brett Sherman] "Statistically, you can't do that sort of multiplication with MTBF. If it were "Average Time Before Failure" maybe. But MTBF simply means half fail before, half fail after with no indication of the distribution of when they fail. So 50% could fail within 1 minute of plugging in and 50% could fail after 300,000 hours with the same MTBF. Theoretically of course."

Agreed, if the distribution of failures over time was unknown. Assuming it's spread relatively evenly over time, with no correlation between failures on different disks (which is an iffy assumption, I know), can we then do that kind of multiplication?


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Brett Sherman
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 19, 2013 at 11:37:09 am

I'm not sure you can derive a whole lot from MTBF at all.

Look at table 2 in this study - http://static.usenix.org/events/fast07/tech/schroeder/schroeder_html/index....

There is absolutely no correlation between MTTF and real world ARR. It seems that the take home lesson is plan to replace drives whether they are enterprise or desktop. This also reminds me I'd better start replacing my archive drives that are over 5 years old...



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Paul King
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 19, 2013 at 3:45:44 pm

If MTBF meant something real then we could all use RAID 0.

If I can use desktops (because they are tested and approved by the RAID vendors) then I will for my own in-house RAIDs.

We only used desktops in customer RAIDs because the drive vendor also sanctioned them (Hitachi approved the Deskstars before WD got hold of them - for workstation RAIDs 24/7).

It's all pretty simple and inarguable.



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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 19, 2013 at 5:32:14 pm

Health monitoring and sufficient protection against UREs and multiple failures is something to rely on, not MTBF. In that, you're right. Replacing all drives after five years without any other indications of impending failure? I'd have to see a more robust study to sign up for something like that.

(This Schroeder/Gibson paper admits to a rather dramatic lack of consistency in data collection and fault reporting, making it a questionable source for MTTF assessments. Add to that wildly ranging sample sizes, definitions of "fault", data collection periods, and I am not sure how you could make any conclusions from that paper.)


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Brett Sherman
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Jun 19, 2013 at 7:23:48 pm

I guess I should say, I should start thinking about replacing all my archive drives over 5 years old. Which for me, means I will get around to replacing them in a couple years. :) And I'll start with the ones that are 10 years old.

These are drives sitting on the shelf that I don't spin up much if at all. If they were active, I wouldn't worry about it much since I would know when they fail and immediately make a new backup. And the costs to move them to new, larger capacity drives is not great in the scheme of things. Not to mention it reduces the number of drives I have to keep around because I can condense 5 500GB drives onto a 3 TB drive.

Since I work for an organization that's been around for 100 years, I have to think more about archiving for historical sake. Most post houses don't last long enough to worry about it. :)



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Mike Rogerson
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Nov 25, 2015 at 4:01:59 pm

Although the original post is over 2 years ago, I thought I'd share my recent woes with a Promise R6 using the recommended Seagate drives.
Over the last 3 years, we've had 7 Seagate drives fail in the two raids, and despite querying this with Promise support, all they can offer is to use the Seagate or Toshiba (discontinued) desktop HD's.
Tech support say that non of their DAS raids support enterprise or RAID specific (WD RED or RED Pro) drives and that we're on our own if we change models away from the only two drives they list!

So looks like it's bye bye to Promise kit.

I can only say from past experience of SCSI through to SSD, Seagate have been the worst drives in our history, followed by the cheap WD Green & Blue. Hitachi unto a few years ago were fine, and recently the WD RED (in 4 to 6 bay RAIDS) & RED Pro have been the most reliable.


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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Nov 25, 2015 at 8:56:57 pm

We here at Maxx Digital have had our best Success with HGST Enterprise Drives.The price of drives is at an all time low. A customer can buy 96 TB of storage for less then a 1TB array not that long ago. Not sure why people would compromise the hard work and use anything but Enterprise.Just my two cents. Happy Thanks Giving to all.

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
3189 Redhill Ave #B
Costa Mesa , Ca 92626
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Mike Rogerson
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Nov 26, 2015 at 11:23:38 am

Ron, 100% agree with you, sadly Promise don't support enterprise drives in the R6 or any of their DAS RAIDS!

I spoke with their tech support and they say unless we use the Seagate or Toshiba desktop drives they won't support us.

The real joke is that they can't be bothered to test any drives that have been released in the last 3 years, so at some point none of their 'recommended' drives will be available to purchase, leaving all R series users in the proverbial …


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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Nov 26, 2015 at 4:27:05 pm

The Maxx Digital Thunder Raid T-4,T-6 and T-8 all use HGST NAS and or Enterprise drives and they are always certifying new models. http://www.maxxdigital.com/thunderraid-mini-r6.html.

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
3189 Redhill Ave #B
Costa Mesa , Ca 92626
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Mike Rogerson
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Nov 26, 2015 at 5:01:07 pm

Do you sell these into the UK? Only I looked at your website and it appeared to be USA only


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Ron Amborn
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Nov 26, 2015 at 6:38:12 pm

Funny you should ask. We are starting UK distribution in January . Please contact me privately with below info and I can give you more details.

Ron Amborn
President Maxx Digital
Cell 714-713-4492
Office 714-374-4944
http://www.maxxdigital.com

Sincerely,
Ron Amborn President
Maxx Entertainment Digital
3189 Redhill Ave #B
Costa Mesa , Ca 92626
Direct 714-374-4944
Cell 714-713-4492 Fax 714-374-3404
ron@maxxdigital.com
http://www.maxxdigital.com




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Simon Blackledge
Re: Promise Pegasus drives
on Dec 2, 2015 at 3:35:01 pm

Got a Pegasus R1.

Cam with Hitachi non enterprise. ( they never ship with Enterprise)

Had drives die and they replaced/

Recently another died and they sent a seagate.

Said they had no Hitachi left.. and that it is finr to MIX drives! lol.

Stripped them all out and replaced with HGST Enterprise.

not a peep since.



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