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Jesse Schluntz
Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 7, 2012 at 6:53:32 pm

MAC PRO KEEPS LOSING CONNECTION TO RAID DRIVE.

After 9 months of organizing a documentary film edit on an external RAID drive (12TB, Raid 0. Yes, I have 2 layers of backup), I purchased the PNY Nvidia Quadro 4000 video card for the primary edit. Soon after, I began having boot up issues. The screen would freeze at various points during the startup process, requiring manual power-downs.
Over the past two months, my computer has lost communication with the RAID 3 times, forcing me to rebuild it from my backup drives (10TB). One tech at Diskwarrior said my computer lost the partition, and that the 1s and 0s had been largely replaced with gibberish.
The Raid becomes unrecognized by my computer in one of two ways:

1- After two days of copying data back over to the raid (rebuilding it), I get an error code -36, saying a file cannot be read or written, then the Raid partition disappears from disk utility and the next time I start up the computer says it doesn’t recognize my drive. The ATTO configuration tool (the card that attaches my raid to the computer) sees the drive, but my computer does not. I have to re-initialize it and start over again.

2- The Raid will go from being recognized to not being recognized when I reboot one day. Again, I have to re-initialize and rebuild.

I removed the PNY Graphics card and put in the stock ATI Radeon HD 5770 it came with. On day 2 of rebuilding the RAID, I got the error -36 and the Raid disappeared from disk utility again. When I opened the raid folder, which seconds before had 10 TB of data on it, it read as zero items. So the PNY Nvidia card was NOT the problem.

Apple has worked on the computer 3 times, running extensive hardware tests, but the same problem persists. At one point they said my blackmagic card was the problem, and more recently they said I probably have bad ram. I tried separate ram (the old 6GB my computer came with), and my computer seemed to begin booting up okay, but one day later I had the -36 error, the RAID couldn’t be recognized again and I lost the data during another rebuild. Apple even replaced the Ram Tray, but the same problem persists.

G technology says my RAID’s hardware is fine, and ATTO, who makes the Raid card, says it looks fine to them too. This does not mean they are 100% not the problem though.

Yesterday as I was attempting to rebuild the RAID again, I saw the -36 error come up, and files stopped copying. I immediately made a screenshot and noted the time.

Today I spoke with a really cool tech at Apple named Ron who helped me investigate the Kernel log, and this is what it said (the RAID is called FadingWest):

Dec 6 17:05:36 Jesses-Mac-Pro kernel[0]: hfs_swap_BTNode: invalid forward link (0xbb739311 >= 0x0000df00)
Dec 6 17:05:36 Jesses-Mac-Pro kernel[0]: hfs: node=2717 fileID=4 volume=FadingWest device=/dev/disk3s2
Dec 6 17:05:36 Jesses-Mac-Pro kernel[0]: hfs: Runtime corruption detected on FadingWest, fsck will be forced on next mount.

Ron believes my problem is with the RAID card. He thinks it’s dropping the connection. So I’ve got an RMA going with ATTO for a new one.

Here are the final things I can troubleshoot at this point:

• New RAID card (ATTO)
• New RAID drive (G-Technology)
• Motherboard / PCI lanes (Apple).
• NEW COMPUTER (Apple)

Any ideas are appreciated. Here are the items in question:

• Mac Pro mid 2010 2x2.66 Ghz 6 core Intel Xeon OS X Lion 10.7.5
• G speed ES Pro (G Technology) – 12TB @ RAID 0
• ATTO R680 RAID card


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Bob Zelin
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 8, 2012 at 10:37:57 pm

Reply from Bob Zelin -
I will respond below to multiple points, but the first and most important thing, is that this is not "voodoo". Your drive issues have NOTHING to do with "bad RAM" or the NVidia Quadro 4000 card. Your NVidia Quadro 4000 could catch on fire inside the computer, and it would not affect your RAID array.

replies below -


MAC PRO KEEPS LOSING CONNECTION TO RAID DRIVE.

After 9 months of organizing a documentary film edit on an external RAID drive (12TB, Raid 0. Yes, I have 2 layers of backup), I purchased the PNY Nvidia Quadro 4000 video card for the primary edit. Soon after, I began having boot up issues. The screen would freeze at various points during the startup process, requiring manual power-downs.

REPLY - when you power up, and your computer freezes, step 1 is to disconnect the drive array. Reboot your computer (with your ATTO R680 card in it). If it boots up quickly, then your problem is your drive array. The installation of the Quadro 4000 and your problems is merely a coincicence.


Over the past two months, my computer has lost communication with the RAID 3 times, forcing me to rebuild it from my backup drives (10TB). One tech at Diskwarrior said my computer lost the partition, and that the 1s and 0s had been largely replaced with gibberish.
The Raid becomes unrecognized by my computer in one of two ways:

REPLY - your components in question are the ATTO R680 card, the miniSAS cable to the R680, the GSpeed eS enclosure and the drives.
When you say "it lost the partition" - does that mean that when you go into the ATTO Configuration Tool that it shows that there is no RAID Group ?


1- After two days of copying data back over to the raid (rebuilding it), I get an error code -36, saying a file cannot be read or written, then the Raid partition disappears from disk utility and the next time I start up the computer says it doesn’t recognize my drive. The ATTO configuration tool (the card that attaches my raid to the computer) sees the drive, but my computer does not. I have to re-initialize it and start over again.

REPLY - this is important. So you are telling me that the ATTO Configuration Tool SEES the RAID Group, you see all drives are there, the RAID group in the ATTO Config tool says ONLINE, but the operating system will not mount the drive array on the desktop ?
Is this what you are saying ?

Because if it shows that the RAID group is ONLINE, but it does not appear on the Mac desktop, you go to ATTO RAID MANAGEMENT on the top of your screen, and select AUTOMAP, and this will force your drive to mount on your desktop.


2- The Raid will go from being recognized to not being recognized when I reboot one day. Again, I have to re-initialize and rebuild.

REPLY - again, you need to be specific, as per the ATTO Configuration Tool. When you say "not being recognized" - do you mean that the ATTO Configuration Tool shows the RAID Group to be online, but the array does NOT mount on the Apple desktop - or do you mean that there is no RAID group in the ATTO Configuration Tool ?


I removed the PNY Graphics card and put in the stock ATI Radeon HD 5770 it came with. On day 2 of rebuilding the RAID, I got the error -36 and the Raid disappeared from disk utility again. When I opened the raid folder, which seconds before had 10 TB of data on it, it read as zero items. So the PNY Nvidia card was NOT the problem.

REPLY - yes, the NVIDIA has nothing to do with this. Neither does your RAM. And stop going to Apple to ask them about this.


Apple has worked on the computer 3 times, running extensive hardware tests, but the same problem persists. At one point they said my blackmagic card was the problem, and more recently they said I probably have bad ram. I tried separate ram (the old 6GB my computer came with), and my computer seemed to begin booting up okay, but one day later I had the -36 error, the RAID couldn’t be recognized again and I lost the data during another rebuild. Apple even replaced the Ram Tray, but the same problem persists.

REPLY - again, the NVidia, and the RAM have nothing to do with this issue. Your only tech support should come from ATTO, or G-Tech (or this forum).



G technology says my RAID’s hardware is fine, and ATTO, who makes the Raid card, says it looks fine to them too. This does not mean they are 100% not the problem though.

REPLY - how does G-Tech know that your RAID hardware is fine - have they looked at your miniSAS cable, have they looked at your drive chassis ? Have you send your logs to ATTO for examination ? Has ATTO requested these ?
1) have you replaced your miniSAS cable ?
2) what Mac OS are you running ?
3) are you running ATTO Driver V3.50 ?
4) are you running ATTO Firmware Sept 27th, 2012 ?
while running V4.09 ATTO Config Tool, click on help, and run the diagnostic, so you can get a set of logs from the ATTO card, and SEND THEM TO ATTO.
5) exactly what has G-Tech done for you in this situation ?


Yesterday as I was attempting to rebuild the RAID again, I saw the -36 error come up, and files stopped copying. I immediately made a screenshot and noted the time.

REPLY - for all I know, you have a flakey drive. But I need more details as to what the ATTO Configruation Tool is showing you.


Today I spoke with a really cool tech at Apple named Ron who helped me investigate the Kernel log, and this is what it said (the RAID is called FadingWest):

REPLY - your Apple Tech knows nothing about the ATTO card or the G-Tech drive enclosure. You do not have an Apple computer problem. Stop talking to Apple about any of this.



Ron believes my problem is with the RAID card. He thinks it’s dropping the connection. So I’ve got an RMA going with ATTO for a new one.

REPLY - a new ATTO card will do nothing for you, if you don't have the latest driver and firmware loaded.



Let me know some answers to my questions above.

Bob Zelin



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 10, 2012 at 5:53:06 pm

Wow, thanks for all the help Bob! Answers below in CAPS:

REPLY - your components in question are the ATTO R680 card, the miniSAS cable to the R680, the GSpeed eS enclosure and the drives.
When you say "it lost the partition" - does that mean that when you go into the ATTO Configuration Tool that it shows that there is no RAID Group ?

ATTO CONFIG TOOL SHOWS THE RAID GROUP. MAC OS DOES NOT. THE RAID'S PARTITION IN DISK UTILITY LITERALLY VANISHES.

REPLY - this is important. So you are telling me that the ATTO Configuration Tool SEES the RAID Group, you see all drives are there, the RAID group in the ATTO Config tool says ONLINE, but the operating system will not mount the drive array on the desktop ?
Is this what you are saying ?

YES

Because if it shows that the RAID group is ONLINE, but it does not appear on the Mac desktop, you go to ATTO RAID MANAGEMENT on the top of your screen, and select AUTOMAP, and this will force your drive to mount on your desktop.

I NEVER DID THIS BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER SUGGESTED IN MY TECH SUPPORT CALLS WITH ATTO OR G TECH. THEY BOTH TOLD ME I HAD TO RE-INITIALIZE THE RAID AFTER VARIOUS ATTEMPTS TO GET MY OS TO RECOGNIZE IT.

REPLY - how does G-Tech know that your RAID hardware is fine - have they looked at your miniSAS cable, have they looked at your drive chassis ?

THEY HAD ME SEND OVER A REPORT (CAN'T REMEMBER HOW, LOST IN SEA OF TECH CALLS), AND SAID FROM THEIR END THE RAID ITSELF APPEARED TO BE FINE. THE CABLE WAS NOT ADDRESSED.

Have you send your logs to ATTO for examination ? Has ATTO requested these ?

YES. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO RESPOND TODAY. I SENT THEM THE OS KERNEL LOGS, THE ATTO LOGS, AND THE EXACT TIME & DATE OF THE LAST TIME THE RAID DISAPPEARED. ON THAT NOTE, APPLE TOOK ME THROUGH THE LOGS (WHY DID IT TAKE 2 MONTHS FOR THESE TO FINALLY BE CONSIDERED I WONDER?) AND CONCLUDED FROM THEM THAT MY MOTHERBOARD WAS NOT DROPPING THE CONNECTION, RATHER THAT THE RAID CARD OR RAID WAS.

1) have you replaced your miniSAS cable ?

NOT YET. IF THE NEW RAID CARD DOESN'T WORK, G TECH IS SENDING ME A NEW RAID & CABLE SO I'LL KNOW THEN FOR SURE.

2) what Mac OS are you running ?

10.7.5

3) are you running ATTO Driver V3.50 ?

I'M ON MY LAPTOP BUT KNOW 100% SURE MY ATTO SOFTWARE IS UP TO DATE. DOUBLE CHECKED WITH ATTO TECHS WHEN THIS ALL STARTED.

4) are you running ATTO Firmware Sept 27th, 2012 ?

YEP.

while running V4.09 ATTO Config Tool, click on help, and run the diagnostic, so you can get a set of logs from the ATTO card, and SEND THEM TO ATTO.

DONE. SEE ABOVE.

5) exactly what has G-Tech done for you in this situation ?

THE HEAD TECH HAS BEEN SUPER COOL. HE'S GOING TO SEND ME A NEW DRIVE (THANKFULLY I'M ONLY 2 HRS AWAY) IF I SAY THE WORD.

REPLY - for all I know, you have a flakey drive. But I need more details as to what the ATTO Configruation Tool is showing you.

SEE ABOVE

REPLY - your Apple Tech knows nothing about the ATTO card or the G-Tech drive enclosure. You do not have an Apple computer problem. Stop talking to Apple about any of this.

HA! I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING BUT SINCE NOBODY... I MEAN NOBODY HAS FIGURED OUT THIS ISSUE'S CAUSE BETWEEN DISK WARRIOR, ATTO, G TECH AND APPLE, ALL I CAN DO IS ACCUMULATE INFO AND TAKE THE NEXT STEP. HENCE THIS FORUM.

REPLY - a new ATTO card will do nothing for you, if you don't have the latest driver and firmware loaded.

YOU DON'T THINK THE CARD ITSELF CAN BE A DUD? WHY NOT?

THANKS AGAIN BOB. ANY FURTHER INFO APPRECIATED!
JESSE


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Bob Zelin
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 11, 2012 at 1:59:47 am

ATTO CONFIG TOOL SHOWS THE RAID GROUP. MAC OS DOES NOT. THE RAID'S PARTITION IN DISK UTILITY LITERALLY VANISHES.

REPLY - highlight your RAID group in ATTO Config Tool (it should say "online" next to it). Now, click on ATTO RAID Management on the top of your screen, and select AUTOMAP. Does the drive mount ?



Have you send your logs to ATTO for examination ? Has ATTO requested these ?

YES. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO RESPOND TODAY. I SENT THEM THE OS KERNEL LOGS, THE ATTO LOGS, AND THE EXACT TIME & DATE OF THE LAST TIME THE RAID DISAPPEARED. ON THAT NOTE, APPLE TOOK ME THROUGH THE LOGS (WHY DID IT TAKE 2 MONTHS FOR THESE TO FINALLY BE CONSIDERED I WONDER?) AND CONCLUDED FROM THEM THAT MY MOTHERBOARD WAS NOT DROPPING THE CONNECTION, RATHER THAT THE RAID CARD OR RAID WAS.

REPLY - Apple knows nothing about the ATTO cards (or anyone elses cards). Forget Apple for support on this. Let me know what ATTO says, and let me know if Automap works.



YOU DON'T THINK THE CARD ITSELF CAN BE A DUD? WHY NOT?

REPLY - it is SO unlikely that you have a bad ATTO card (anything is possible), but it is VERY likely that you have a cable that is bad, because cables ALWAYS go bad.

It's nice that G-Tech is willing to send you another chassis.
Try Automap, and let me know what ATTO says about the logs - make sure that you follow up with them - don't wait for them to call you - YOU CALL THEM, and force them to give you an answer to what they see in the logs.

Bob Zelin



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 11, 2012 at 10:54:43 pm

HELLO AGAIN BOB. I JUST PUT THE NEW ATTO CARD IN MY TOWER AND FIRED IT UP WITH THE RAID ATTACHED. LAST TIME I HAD THE RAID ATTACHED WAS WHEN I LOST IT DURING MOST RECEND 10TB REBUILD (-36 ERROR).

REPLY - highlight your RAID group in ATTO Config Tool (it should say "online" next to it). Now, click on ATTO RAID Management on the top of your screen, and select AUTOMAP. Does the drive mount ?

THE ATTO CONFIG TOOL SEES THE RAID AND CONFIRMS IT IS ONLINE, BUT MY COMPUTER DID THE USUAL 'CAN'T RECOGNIZE THE DISK" SO I HAD TO INITIALIZE IT WITH DISK UTILITY.

Have you send your logs to ATTO for examination ? Has ATTO requested these ?

I EMAILED ATTO ABOUT THESE TODAY AND "ENGINEERS ARE LOOKING AT THEM". I'M ABOUT TO CRACK THE WHIP AGIAN.

REPLY - it is SO unlikely that you have a bad ATTO card (anything is possible), but it is VERY likely that you have a cable that is bad, because cables ALWAYS go bad.

I COULDN'T FIND A MINI SAS IN MY AREA SO I ORDERED ONE ONLINE THIS MORNING. WILL BE HERE THURSDAY SUPPOSEDLY.

Try Automap, and let me know what ATTO says about the logs - make sure that you follow up with them - don't wait for them to call you - YOU CALL THEM, and force them to give you an answer to what they see in the logs.

HA! ON IT... THANKS AGAIN BOB. UNTIL NEXT TIME.

JESSE


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 11, 2012 at 11:02:10 pm

SORRY BOB, I FORGOT TO MENTION - I TRIED AUTOMAP AND IT DIDN'T MOUNT THE DRIVE.


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 4:18:07 pm

whow, Bob is really looking into it. It is very likely your Gspeed Raid (hardware) or the cable (we have never had any problems with SAS cables)

Definitely not ram (your computer would react totally weird and not loosing just the drive)
You can try Tech tool pro, a very good hardware check software.
My Instinct tends towards your Raidsystem.

Another Test:
I think you are on Raid 5 or 6. When your Gspeed is ready, pull one drive and replace it. It should rebuildt. If the Gspeed has a hardware error the rebuildt function should fail.

good luck

Rainer



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 5:51:28 pm

thanks Rainer.

I'm on RAID 0 because it's the only way to get all my data on the raid. I have 2 layers of backup.

jesse


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 5:52:03 pm

ATTO called and said their tech couldn't find anything conclusive from the diagnostic. Does that even make sense?


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 8:17:40 pm

Once again,
the raid's your problem. Either the internal controller or (raid0) one of the Harddiscs in the raid. What hard discs are in the raid?

Rainer



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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 8:22:18 pm

Is there one HD going red?
If not, it's the internal raid controller.

Rainer



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 8:25:50 pm

HDs are all blue. If one of them goes out, the raid literally sounds an alarm. I've heard it before when I had a heat issue months ago.


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 8:24:32 pm

here is my Raid:

http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-speed-es-pro.cfm

When this whole issue began, I spoke to G Tech on a support call, went through the problems, and they concluded there wasn't anything on my end indicating a problem with the actual raid hardware. That being said, they're ready to send me a new drive if these final eliminations point to that.

I'm currently rebuilding the raid again after installing a new ATTO card. If all 10TB load up and I can edit for a few days with no issues, the card was most likely the issue. If the raid disappears again, I'll try the new cable I just received. If that doesn't work, I'll pull the trigger on the replacement raid.

The bottom line is everyone around me says "it sounds like this is the problem" or "the problem is for sure that", but nobody has been proven right and my system is still paralyzed.

I can't wait until I can declare who was right, believe me!

thanks
jesse


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 8:32:40 pm

I believe you, and for sure you are not the only one with similar problems.
Try this:
New Configuration Raid 5
Just put some files on it.
Let's say 300 GB
Try to work around a little with the raid.
If one of the drives go on red you have found the problem. It's a drive. Replace the drive, your problem is found. If the array disappears with the new cable you need a new G-raid (Hardware.

Rainer



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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 8:36:54 pm

Heat issue? This is definitely Raid hardware. Perhaps one of the fans is not working properly. If one drive fails, you have to replace it. Especially when you are on Raid 0. Raid 0 is harakiri. We have not one raid working on 0. Since 10 years.

Rainer



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Bob Zelin
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:18:34 pm

the story unfolds as you release details. Why on earth are you using RAID 0, with an ATTO R680 card ? The whole point is that if a drive fails, you don't lose all your data. You MUST use RAID 5 for this system.

You previously said that you are getting a new cable and enclosure from G-Tech. I am very glad about this (and surprised at the cooperation). This will hopefully resolve your issues. I doubt it's the ATTO card very very much.

Bob Zelin



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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:21:32 pm

I agree with bob!

Rainer



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:27:04 pm

Err.... the first line of my first post says I'm configured raid 0 with back ups. not sure how you both missed that.

Regardless of configuration, the gear no-worky.

I'll let you guys know what happens!

thanks
jesse


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:29:54 pm

My last recommondation, and I'm very serious about this:
It is the raid controller in the G-Raid.

Rainer



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:36:51 pm

The controller is a card that's installed on my tower. The controller connects to my G raid via mini SAS cable.


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:38:58 pm

There is a controller in the G-Tech!

Rainer



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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:44:14 pm

[Rainer Wirth] "There is a controller in the G-Tech!"

Not in eS Pro.


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:49:54 pm

But how do you get a green/blue light with an intact/corrupt harddisc ?
I think, with an internal controller. Also fans and temerature? How do you get this data? There must be an internal controller.

Rainer



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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:55:12 pm

[Rainer Wirth] "But how do you get a green/blue light with an intact/corrupt harddisc ?
I think, with an internal controller. Also fans and temerature? How do you get this data? There must be an internal controller."


"I think, therefore I am" :)

A SAS backplane. Not the same thing as a controller.

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Engineer
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 11:10:40 pm

Hi Alex,

"I think, therefore I am" :)

This might be my general problem. I smile back, but your smile is brighter. My problem should be posted in a psychological forum.

But could it be that this might be the problem? That data is interpreted wrongly?

Thanks for your understanding

Rainer



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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 11:24:28 pm

[Rainer Wirth] "But could it be that this might be the problem? That data is interpreted wrongly?"

It's possible, though somewhat unlikely: no moving parts, and it's one of those things that us usually either on or off. That said, a bent pin on one of the SAS connectors could wreak spectacular (and mysterious) havoc.

This is one of those cases where crowd-sourced guesswork is good, but won't necessarily lead to a solution. Someone has to painstakingly go through all possible culprits one-by-one, like the OP and BZ already started: from the host system itself, the controller, cabling, drives, backplane, etc. Eventually the culprit will be found, although the OP is SOL until then. :(

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Engineer
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 11:39:26 pm

But Alex, doesn't it sound like this might be our case?

Rainer



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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 11:49:08 pm

If I understood Jesse right, G-Tech is sending a replacement box (eS Pro MiniSAS enclosure) so we'll know shortly. The box has three key components: power supply, backplane, internal cabling. So if the replacement box fixes the issue, we'll know it was one of those three things, and that's likely all we'll ever know. :)

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Engineer
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 13, 2012 at 12:07:18 am

Unfortunately it takes several days for the Raid issue to manifest, so each of these three troubleshoot steps will take a while.

I'm in the process of reloading all 10TB of data now via the new ATTO card. If I do this and can edit for a couple of days, it's probably fixed. If not, I test the cable, then the new raid itself. Its so frustrating not knowing which part it is!

thanks
jesse


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:32:05 pm

[Bob Zelin] "Why on earth are you using RAID 0, with an ATTO R680 card ? The whole point is that if a drive fails, you don't lose all your data. You MUST use RAID 5 for this system. "

Bob, I don't mean to be adversarial: RAID5 is not a must on a 4-drive box, especially when there are multiple levels of backup:

[Jesse Schluntz] "I'm on RAID 0 because it's the only way to get all my data on the raid. I have 2 layers of backup."

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Engineer
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 12, 2012 at 10:36:59 pm

From the data point of view I'm totally with Bob. But the system should work on Raid 0 as well, when the hardware is intact.

Rainer



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 14, 2012 at 5:35:35 pm

PROBLEM SOLVED???

I installed the new ATTO raid card in my tower, hooked up the original raid & cable, and began copying data back over from the backups.

After the standard, 2 days of copying multiple TB's over, the transfer speed slowed to a crawl (suddenly 7 hours of data was supposed to take 2 days). I was unable to get the finder to stop copying or to log out, so I did the usual last resort, forced shutdown.

Sure enough, the raid icon had disappeared from the desktop again, and the familiar "can't recognize the disk" message was on my desktop.

My only 2 remaining troubleshoot options after this new ATTO card were replacing the mini SAS cable or the raid itself. At this point I firmly believe it's the raid. Why else would the raid go offline whenever I'm on my final day of file copying? My rationale is if the raid always vanishes once I'm almost finished rebuilding, it must be failing hardware.

Is there anyone out there who thinks this could somehow be the mini SAS cable?

I'll confirm this whether this works next week once the new raid is up and I'm able to work on it with no issues.

jesse


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 14, 2012 at 10:59:39 pm

I think it's definitely the raid. Cable would either there or not, not slowing down.

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Simon Blackledge
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 15, 2012 at 10:03:18 am

Raid chassis I'd say. Probably the backplane.

These things are great but always a pain when this kinda stuff starts happening.

Support is all well and good but unless you buy the complete setup from one supplier who know what they are doing they will always point you to support of that product.

I really hope you get this sorted as I know what a pain it can be.

And I would never point diskwarrior at any raid only single drives.



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 15, 2012 at 4:37:26 pm

I agree Simon. Would've been far easier to diagnose the issue if the same company was responsible for everything that's connected to my computer rather than ATTO for the card, G drive for the raid and another company for the cable. Is there any company who sells complete setups?

Why is diskwarrior bad for raids & external HD's in your opinion?

thanks
jesse


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 15, 2012 at 4:40:36 pm

Sorry Simon I misread your post. Here is my correct question:

Why is diskwarror bad to use on a raid?

thanks
jesse


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Simon Blackledge
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 17, 2012 at 2:43:54 pm

Jesse,
I've never had good results with DW with external raids only single drives.

As a last resort maybe I would try. But if there is an issue like yours and its not reported as needs fixing in DiskUtil in OSX then its not an OS issue.

Plus the the pure size of raids it would be quicker to just reformat the raid and re copy the media back over to the raid that sit there hoping a rebuild works.

As for complete systems. I prefer a reseller I trust to buy everything from firstly. If I was in the US Bob would be my first call to ask his preference.

S



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 19, 2012 at 5:29:22 pm

OH MY GOSH... IT HAPPENED AGIAN!

After swapping out the ATTO card with a new one and having the same issue, I purchased a new MINI SAS cable and received a replacement RAID from G Technology. These were my last two possible causes of the problem.

Since the RAID always seemed to vanish off my computer during the home stretch of file copying (final few hours of 10 TB), I reasoned it must have had something to do with my original RAID. I skipped swapping out the new cable and went for the newer RAID.

This morning, after two days of restoring the files, I came into the office and found the same error code (-36), followed by the standard clicking of "OK", then opening the raid to find zero files on it.

The strange thing is that when the -36 error code appears, the files disappear off the RAID, but the RAID reads out as being mostly full (which it should). It's when I restart that the OS (not the config tool, the OS) loses communication with the RAID and forces me to re-initialize it.

I restarted and got the usual "disk not readable" drive warning, and had to re-initialize the new raid again on disk utility.

I am not onto the final step, swapping the mini SAS cable. If this doesn't fix the problem, I'm going to have to demand a new computer from Apple.

UNBELIEVABLE...

jesse


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 19, 2012 at 5:40:43 pm

Screen shots from this latest issue:







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Simon Blackledge
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 19, 2012 at 5:41:09 pm

Are you sure you don't have a corrupt file in your backup your copying across ?

How are you restoring your media ? Not just drag n drop in Finder?

s



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 19, 2012 at 5:47:13 pm

Are you sure you don't have a corrupt file in your backup your copying across ?

YES. THE -36 ERROR HAPPENS ON RANDOM FILES, AND ALWAYS DURING THE FINAL STRETCH OF FILE COPYING.

How are you restoring your media ? Not just drag n drop in Finder?

YES. DRAG FROM EXTERNAL BACKUP DRIVES TO THE RAID. WORKED PERFECTLY FOR ABOUT 9 MONTHS. ISSUE STARTED A COUPLE MONTHS AGO.


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Simon Blackledge
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 19, 2012 at 5:56:12 pm

I'd suggest 2 things.

But 1st. Have you ever successfully dragged and dropped 10TB via finder onto this raid?


To copy that amount of data you should be verifying and I wouldn't use finder to do 10TB :-/


Try Chronosync
http://www.econtechnologies.com/pages/cs/chrono_overview.html
..and turn verification on.

That way hopefully CS will flag an issue not the OS panics..

Or... or after No.1 if that fails


1. Get 2T of data. The first portion.. not some near the end of the folders being copied and copy that across into a folder called A -Using CS or if you must Finder ( but I wouldnt..)

Create a folder B and copy that same data again/.... C D E repeat till raid has 10TB on.

How much space does your raid have ? CMD+i
How much data is there in your backup ? CMD+i


To copy that amount of data you should be verifying.

Try Chronosync
http://www.econtechnologies.com/pages/cs/chrono_overview.html
..and turn verification on.



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 19, 2012 at 6:11:35 pm

I'd suggest 2 things.

But 1st. Have you ever successfully dragged and dropped 10TB via finder onto this raid?

NO. TYPICALLY I COPY IT OVER 1 OR 2 OF THE BACKUP DRIVES AT A TIME. USUALLY IT'S 2 FIREWIRE 800 DRIVES AT A TIME (OVERNIGHT), EACH WITH ABOUT 2 TB OF MEDIA.


To copy that amount of data you should be verifying and I wouldn't use finder to do 10TB :-/


Try Chronosync
http://www.econtechnologies.com/pages/cs/chrono_overview.html
..and turn verification on.

That way hopefully CS will flag an issue not the OS panics..

I'LL LOOK INTO THIS. BUT AGAIN, I'M NOT COPYING 10 TB AT ONCE. I HAVE 5 BACKUP DRIVES THAT I HOOK UP IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER AND COPY THEM OVER.

THE ISSUE NEVER OCCURS WHEN I HAVE THE SAME DRIVE OR FOLDER COPYING OVER, NOR DOES IT ALWAYS OCCUR WHEN I HAVE, SAY, 2 HOURS OF COPYING LEFT. LAST WEEK WHEN THIS ISSUE HAPPENED, THE FINDER SOMEHOW WENT FROM NEEDING A FEW HOURS TO FINISH COPYING TO "2 DAYS", THE DATA TRANSFER SPEED CRAWLED, AND THE "STOP COPYING" OPTION WOULD NOT WORK.

JESSE


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Simon Blackledge
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 19, 2012 at 6:20:36 pm

What version of OSX ?

All these externals FW800 ? Always using the same FW800 port on ya macpro ?

If you can get 500Gig onto the Raid I'd try duplicating that 500Gig. Then dupe the 1TB..

See if that balks it.

Also
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/03/30/mac-os-tip-for-er...



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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 19, 2012 at 6:44:25 pm

What version of OSX ?

10.7.5

All these externals FW800 ? Always using the same FW800 port on ya macpro ?

YES AND YES.

If you can get 500Gig onto the Raid I'd try duplicating that 500Gig. Then dupe the 1TB..

See if that balks it.

Also
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/03/30/mac-os-tip-for-er.....

INTERESTING LINK. I APPRECIATE IT, BUT MUST ADD ONE MORE PART OF THE STORY:

MY COMPUTER HAS LOST COMMUNICATION WITH THE RAID IN THE PAST WHEN COPYING FILES WAS NOT EVEN PART OF THE EQUATION. I WAS HAVING BOOT ISSUES, WHICH I TOOK MY COMPUTER IN FOR REPAIR AT THE APPLE STORE 3 TIMES, AND SOMETIMES WHEN THE COMPUTER WOULD REBOOT, MY RAID WOULD BE GONE FROM THE FINDER AND I'D HAVE TO RE-INITIALIZE.

JESSE


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 21, 2012 at 6:50:03 pm

THE END OF THE TROUBLESHOOTING ROAD...

Today was D Day for troubleshooting. At this point I have tried:

- reinstalling the OS
- changing out the graphics card
- swapping out the ram
- having ram board replaced
- swapping out the ATTO raid card
- swapping out the raid
- swapping out the cable

All with the same error code -36 resulting in the same, predictable way during the final hours of copying footage back onto the raid late last night. The only thing left to do is replace the computer. I'm on hold with Apple waiting for a senior advisor right now...







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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 21, 2012 at 11:35:27 pm

Had a long talk with Apple. They say they won't give me a new computer because the problem is related to non-Apple hardware. Funny, everything worked fine for 9 months, and I've proven its the computer. The Apple Store is replacing the Motherboard now. Apparently you get a new computer once they've ruled everything out.

Here's the kicker - I have 10 days until I need this computer up and running for a documentary film edit. Never been so against the wall technically in my life. If this doesn't fix the issue, I'm looking at buying a new tower, proving the setup works with it, then somehow getting Apple to cover it.

Is there anybody out there with any last ideas, or is everybody on vacation?

thanks
jesse


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 22, 2012 at 2:10:38 pm

Hi Jesse,

I've followed your whole misery. I had nothing to add to your problem, no new idea what it might be. In a similar situation I would have reacted differently.

After one try reinstalling the raid, I would have switched the raid to Raid 5, to check whether the harddiscs within the raid are okay.
After that I would have replaced cable and run a hardware check on the computer (Tech tool Pro).
After that I would have replaced the drive array and would have bought the most solid drive array you can get for money.

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 24, 2012 at 1:06:26 am

APPLE COMES THROUGH!

I just got a call from the head tech at my local Apple Store telling me that after much discussion on their end, they are giving me a new computer. I'm literally sitting at the Genius Bar waiting for some final files to back up from the previous system.

If the same issue occurs on this computer, there are 2 final conclusions:

1- The G Speed ES Pro is not compatible with Mac once there is enough data loaded up.

2- I will feel like a serious jerk.

IF this happens, can anyone recommend a rock solid 12 TB RAID setup for a Mac Pro that's tried & true at Raid 0?

Merry Christmas to all!
jesse


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 24, 2012 at 1:15:58 am

eS Pro is a tried and true setup (with the ATTO card, not the older HighPoint). Other than that, I'd look at JMR boxes: US-designed, US made, US-based support. B&H sells them - I don't, so no personal bias or vested interest, and hey - they do advertise on Cow.

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Engineer
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 26, 2012 at 4:05:41 am

THE NIGHTMARE CONTINUES - IS THERE SERIOUSLY NOBODY ELSE IN THE COMPUTER WORLD HAVING THIS ISSUE???

It's Christmas day and I've been rebuilding the raid for two days on ALL NEW GEAR. I just went to the office to see if the final drive copy worked. The file copy stopped somewhere during the last few hours as usual***, and when I restarted the computer the raid had once again disappeared from my system and has to be re-initialized. As usual, the raid pops up on the ATTO config tool just fine, but my OS doesn't recognize it.

***The only difference this time was the error message. Instead of getting an error code -36, I got a "drive is too full" error (Not sure if this was the exact sentence, I was very tired, suffering from a cold, and at that point pretty frustrated). This is strange because I had 2.68 TB left on the raid, and was copying 2.45 TB over to it. Plus I would've gotten an error right up front saying "cannot copy this over because there is not enough free space".

I know I have just over 10 TB of footage total on my backup drives, and around 11 TB of available raid. Perhaps my math was off, but regardless I didn't have enough data to take up the whole raid, and even if I did that's no reason for it to disappear and lose all the footage every time.

I needed my system up & running this week, and appear to be screwed. Here is all I can think of at this point:

- I can try copying over everything using Carbon Copy Cloner, but that still doesn't give me a warm sense of security.

- I can upgrade to Mountain Lion, which I'm very hesitant to do because I'm an Adobe Premiere Editor and have heard horror stories. Would hate to trade one problem for others.

- Another alternative method would be to copy over all but one of my external backup drives to the raid, then house all my media on the raid, plus an additional firewire 800 drive, but that feels like a stupid way to work if I'm always wondering whether I'll have one too many files copy over to the raid and cause this issue in the middle of the biggest edit of my life. I've spent so much money & blood at this point, I should be getting the speed of this raid for my needs.

Help?...

jesse


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 26, 2012 at 4:07:07 pm

Now Jesse,

you have had the right thought. Get a new raid system! And for heavens sake run it on Raid 5 and not 0. Alex has given you his recommondations. I recommend a Sonnet R800 SAS with Hitachi HUA's in it. It takes 8 Harddiscs, so you end up with enough storage to cover your 10 TB on Raid 5!

Cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 26, 2012 at 5:06:59 pm

Thanks for the recommendations. Unfortunately I don't have thousands of dollars to drop on a new raid. I need my G Tech gear to work now, so I'm more interested in solutions to my problem that can be achieved this week.

jesse


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 26, 2012 at 8:31:02 pm

Spent a while on the phone with G Tech today. The AJA system test says the raid is working perfectly, and the ATTO config tool says the same. We are left with one theoretical answer & workaround:

Since my data was filling up just over 90% of the raid, this must be what causes the glitch. Why this happens, no company involved can say. I am currently shuffling data around, and will be housing my media on the raid - plus one additional G Drive via Esata (I can afford an Esata card, not a new raid setup). This will hopefully keep my system from no recognizing the raid.

jesse


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 27, 2012 at 1:33:14 am

[Jesse Schluntz] "This is strange because I had 2.68 TB left on the raid, and was copying 2.45 TB over to it."

The file system has an overhead which varies depending on block size, number of files, their sizes. E.g. it's theoretically possible for 1TB of data to take 16TB of disk space (or more) if the volume isn't formatted properly for the application.

Do you have the stats for the data you're copying - number of files, total size, total size on disk? (Two last numbers are never the same - at best, the last is just slightly larger than the 2nd.)

Also, how is the RAID (and volume) formatted? RAID level, stripe size, any other parameters? Next time you re-initialize it, re-format it as well. Volume: block size, file system type? Is journaling on?

Possibly it's a FS glitch that you are running into, where the OS just can't handle when the volume gets too close to being full.

Possibly something else is going on - but for now, it's clearly the problem between the FS (OS) and RAID brain. Someone, somewhere, is not reporting the capacity correctly to the OS, and the OS flakes out and marks the whole volume offline.

So for now, I'd just leave a 500GB headroom on the array and consider it full when you get half a terabyte close to the limit.

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Engineer
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Eduardo Viladoms
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 29, 2012 at 7:58:50 am

Hello, I just had the same problem and its the third time it happens, it always happen when is am copying files.


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Dec 29, 2012 at 9:32:23 pm

Congratulations. You're the 2nd person G Technology has ever even heard of having this issue. Here's what I can tell you for now:

If you're configured at RAID 0, do not fill the raid up to within 3.2 TB of filling it. I had to sacrifice that much space to get my setup functional. Right now I have about 3.8 TB empty, and will have to work off both the raid and an external esata drive in order to not crash the raid again.

Totally sucks, I know, but if this works for you thank the good Lord you asked me because I spent weeks and weeks figuring this out. I literally swapped out every major component from my computer itself to the raid itself.

jesse


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Eduardo Viladoms
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Jun 29, 2013 at 7:21:52 pm

I am having exactly the same problem, what i do is i don't le the raid pass the 8 tb marker because it always fail with this amount of data.

G speed es pro is the worst purchase i have ever made, novody knows what is the issue and GTech Atto and apple just throw away the ball.

My advice is don't G-SPEED eS PRO, go with the promise 16 TB thunderbolt Raid,


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Joseph Fisher
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 13, 2013 at 8:03:39 am

Jesse,

Thank you for all your hard work, time and effort that went into trying to solve this problem. I too had a raid config of (RAID 0) which worked great for 2 months until one fine day i had run into your exact problem while copying data from day 6 of this feature film.

I am in no position to be purchasing new raids like those above have recommended. I was prompted with the exact same (error -36) and just like you, had the raid disconnect upon start-up. I was once however able to re-mount it by clicking (auto-map) however once i restarted my mac pro tower, that option no longer worked no matter how many times i restarted, force shutdown, re initialize etc. So once again, I reconfigure to a new (raid 0) setups and yet without even any data on the raid - The problem persists.

And now.. I sit here in moments of pain, having to re-transcode 2 weeks of shooting (thank god I have a red rocket) and I'll be reconnecting all my media to my auto-saves. I'm now rebuilding on a (raid5) configuration and hoping to god that this new raid configuration will do the trick.

Sorry to hear about your troubles.. i sympathize with you...


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 13, 2013 at 3:56:22 pm

I'm happy you won't be going through all the same troubleshooting steps my friend! Automap didn't help me much either, and when it did most of the data didn't register anyway.

I wound up finishing my last feature using the raid plus one additional external drive to compensate for the needed space, renders, etc.

jesse


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 15, 2013 at 10:17:53 am

Hi Jesse and all others coping with such a nightmare.
At least Jesse, you are not alone with your problem. What do we learn? The G-tech hardware sometimes has its Monday productions.
Personally I wouldn't touch this hardware - even if you can save some bucks, go for better hardware. We've got a Sonnet SAS R800 working for years flawlessly. There are a lot of other brands out there as good and reliable as Sonnet, but definitely not G-tech. If you scroll in this forum you will find a lot of threads with problems with G-tech products.
Throw it away and buy a decent piece of hardware - with no hustles for the future - in the end it's cheaper.
The best raid is one you forget about that its there - A Raid has just to work, work, work.

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 15, 2013 at 5:07:11 pm

Thanks for the advice. Would've gone with another model had I known ahead of time. Will do in the future.

G tech has awesome external drives up to a point, but as for RAIDs, I'm moving on.

jesse


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 15, 2013 at 7:01:49 pm

I usually agree with Rainer - but not in this case. I worked with G-Tech since they were called Medea. While not all G-Speed products were absolutely stellar (HiPoint controllers aren't exactly top tier), G-Speed eS Pro is so simple, it's hard to find fault with it. It's an external backplane with a 3rd party controller (ATTO R680), and it's nearly guaranteed that if you take the drives out of the eS Pro and put them in a different (but similar technically) enclosure while using the same controller, the issue will not go away.

The issue is about 99% between the OS and its file system, ATTO controller, its driver and configuration, and the drives. The box itself is highly unlikely to be a major player in it. It's also supported by thousands of eS Pro boxes being used out there 24/7.

(Sorry to disagree with you Rainer. I may end up eating my words. :))


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 16, 2013 at 1:06:16 pm

Alex,

I'm not sure either, because this problem is so strange, and Jesse really tried nearly everything, that our expertise comes to the end of try and error.
I have got no new, good or better idea to work around it. Except that I'm a friend of expensive raid products, because to me I've never regretted the most expensive arrays. Less hustle, better reliability, longer use, in the end cheaper.

cheers,

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 16, 2013 at 1:12:12 pm

One last little thing!
How did you format the array? OSX with journaling or without? Arrays should always be formatted without journaling!

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 16, 2013 at 4:34:48 pm

Honestly can't remember. It's been quite a while. All I can tell you is I was talked through the process by both ATTO techs (the raid controller) and G Techs. Neither method worked. Had nothing to do with anything other than a bad design by G Tech unfortunately.


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Joe Church
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 23, 2013 at 10:35:32 pm

I am having the exact same type of issues on a Windows system with a desktop RAID solution over eSATA. I can tell you with a high level of confidence that your issues are caused by the same thing as mine. Its your drives. I have done a ton of research over the last few days because I wanted to get cheap 3TB SATA drives to use in my desktop RAID enclosure. I got Toshiba drives, decent but not meant for RAID or NAS. You said your drives are WD Blues, which are also not meant for RAID or NAS solutions. I can almost guarantee you that if you run out and grab some WD Reds or some of the better Seagate NAS drives, you will not have this problem. Desktop class drives don't handle error correction very well and if the drives you use aren't fully compatible with the RAID controller and its required feature set in the drives, then you will have these kinds of issues. You don't need to replace your entire RAID, but you do need new drives. Unfortunately the drives are one of the most expensive parts. I'm in the same boat.


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Chris Murphy
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 27, 2013 at 6:57:07 am

The eS Pro data sheet says they come with SATA Rev. 3 enterprise drives. They will have the proper SCT ERC setting for this use case. Given the cost of the drives and the effort to go with SAS, I'm slightly perplexed with the use of SATA drives. But I doubt that's related.

The recurring theme is that the failure happens near the end of file copy, regardless of the sequence of the source used. So I'm thinking of three possible causes, only one of which is hardware related:

a.) Apple has a rather significant file system bug on their hands, in 10.7.4 (at least), that causes it to face plant some time shortly after 20-25% free space remains on a 12TB volume. Possible. Seems least likely of the three.

b.) Firmware/driver bug. Something is being translated wrong between physical device LBAs and the logical LBAs sent to the file system. File system is writing, writing, writing, and then upon reading some bit of file system, it's been damaged - per the very first post on the thread. Buggy firmware is a significant cause of silent data corruption at the drive and controller level.

c.) One of the disks has damage, possibly conveyance related. If a large number of sectors have somehow gone bad due to damage, they are automatically substituted by drive firmware with reserves. But if all reserves get used up, the drive must report a write error the very next time a persistently bad sector is written to. Which would be pretty much in the same place every time. The controller tends to collapse the array when this happens.

a and b. are easy to test. Borrow a completely different brand of SAS controller and repeat the test. If it fails, it's a file system bug. While the ATTO R680 has a linux driver, a linux based test with XFS or ext4 while interesting, presents an ambiguity: maybe it's a driver bug.

c. Run smartctl -x on all of the drives to see if there are or have been bad sectors (goes by various names). Ideally the drives should have extended offline tests done regularly. And they should have had the conveyance and extended offline test run before being put into production.

But in any case, it's a nasty bug.


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 27, 2013 at 4:29:51 pm

Thanks Chris.

The drive hardware wasn't the issue. G Tech sent me an entire new raid to help troubleshoot.

As for all the other tests, they would take over a week so I can't get into those. I'll just buy a solid RAID next time. By the way, I wasn't aware the G tech raids weren't solid until this happened. My first time around the block with a raid.

If anyone else reads these threads, I'd just be stoked to get a short list of the best raid systems that won't break the bank. thanks!


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Chris Murphy
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 27, 2013 at 5:00:40 pm

an entire new raid

Does that mean a new enclosure? Or new enclosure and new modules (drives)?

I can't get into those. I'll just buy a solid RAID next time

Unless someone with different hardware can vouch for successfully filling an HFSJ/HFSX volume to 90+% used, on 10.7.4 specifically, there isn't a way to know that merely buying a different product would have avoided the problem.

While a file system ought to tolerate being filled to 100% of its own reported capacity, experience tells me that file systems start to do weird things when they get beyond 90% capacity, and therefore I tend to avoid that situation unless I'm testing. I'd guess that the user experience of 90% full file systems is comparatively rare, so this may not be heavily tested in real world scenarios.

But only because of the error -36, which is not an out of space error but some kind of IO error, leads me to think more likely it's either a firmware or driver bug. A full set of kernel messages might be more enlightening.


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 27, 2013 at 4:19:21 pm

Interesting Joe.

This point was never raised during my entire experience. I don't know exactly what kind of drives I have in this RAID, and am scared to pull one to find out, but according to G Technology they are SATA III Enterprise class, but I'm no expert.

thanks for the info. I'll definitely consider it when I get my next RAID.


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 28, 2013 at 12:12:08 pm

Hi Jesse,

no nightmare ending? Some experience sharing:
Best raids to me are FC raids. In the 90's we stated with SCSI Raid0 raids. One HD was about 200 GB, they came from IBM. Up to 8 HD's in one row. We worked in SD world, 50MB/s on Betacam stuff. Even when we were on Raid0 we've had just one drive failure within 10 years - surprising! I think, the quality of these drives have been much bigger than now. IBM doesn't produce these drives any longer. Also the drives have been much more expensive at that time!
One of the most expensive solution we've invested in came after: Xraid
We've still two Xraids running, one with nearly 80 000 hours constantly working. Over 10 years old, still running. Okay, one or two fans, one controller, some HD's have failed, but we've lost no data over 10 years within this piece of hardware!
The next step was sonnet SAS 8 bay. To me the SAS is the first step into quality Raids. It is very fast, the hardware is pretty solid and it is working under professional circumstances. But the hardware is not as solid as the FC Raid hardware (double redundancy, fans, controller, all hot swappable). Our biggest raids now are some Yotta 3 FC raids. 24 bays each raid, Raid 6 plus one spare per raid, all enterprise class drives. Up to now no HD failed.
I've come to the conclusion: The better the hardware (Fans, controllers, battery, back-up) the less HD failures you get. Most people want the best Raid for no bucks. People should be aware, that the cheapest solution is the most unreliable solution. Growing up is my answer. If you buy a cheap raid with lousy hardware in it, you are most likely end up with data loss.
Jesse, I think you have learned your lesson and hopefully some others, following this thread and learn without having to go through a nightmare as this.

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Jesse Schluntz
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Aug 28, 2013 at 4:09:31 pm

Cheers for the advice Rainer.


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Joseph Fisher
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Oct 30, 2013 at 7:38:27 pm

Well guys - G-TECH has lost all my support. Just lost a million dollar movie on my 16TB with ATTO CARD R680. Thank god it was backed up. I'm scared shitless operating these days. I'm moving on to Sonnet RAIDS and that's about it.

Joe


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Oct 30, 2013 at 10:11:22 pm

good choice Joseph,

but there are also other good brands around, G-tech is a no go to me. But you can also go for Dulce, Small Tree, Axus, active storage and I think some of the Proavio stuff is nice as well. Jon Shilling is doing a good job in this forum,

cheers

Rainer

factstory
Rainer Wirth
phone_0049-177-2156086
Mac pro 8core
Adobe,FCP,Avid
several raid systems


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Robert Ober
Re: Gspeed ES Pro RAID keeps disappearing from Mac, have to re-initialize!
on Nov 7, 2013 at 2:50:05 am

Hey Folks,

I use RAID 0 and have a Proavio EB400CR on it's way that I will use in RAID 0. 0 gives speed and full capacity. And no RAID is a replacement for a proper backup plan. My main business is IT and my clients backup their RAIDs to tape every night. Creatives should backup when they make an important change/edit/whatever or every day whichever comes first.

Y'all be cool,
Robert A. Ober
PS: BTW, Alex Lindsay calls 0 scary raid:-)
PS2: Folks, please arrange the posts lists by date so you don't miss updates to older threads.


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