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Is it hard to teach old dogs new tricks? Color Correction.

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Fred Connors Jr.
Is it hard to teach old dogs new tricks? Color Correction.
on Feb 8, 2010 at 4:50:56 pm

Hello All

For years we have color corrected in standard definition using SONY BVM-20 SDI displays. These units have been tried and true for years in our post production suites. Now we have installed one LM-0750W for field production use and three LM-2450W displays for post production.

The editors do not want to let go of their SONY displays so in each room the Flanders 2450 is sitting next to the SONY. Each Sony display is calibrated with a Minolta CA-100 and they look great. The Flanders displays are all factory calibrated and they look great as well. However here's the rub. Sitting next to each other the Flanders display "looks" over saturated (color). The 0750 field display also "Looks" over saturated as well but with no point of reference (a calibrated tube display).

So what should we do?
Color correct to the SONY and Tweak to Flanders to "look" less saturated and then color correct to it?
Teach the old dog editors to color correct the the Flanders and tell tel a little over saturation is good?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Fred


The Troupe - Modern Media Design & Production


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Bram Desmet
Re: Is it hard to teach old dogs new tricks? Color Correction.
on Feb 8, 2010 at 5:31:47 pm

Hi Fred,

One thing to note is that these units are operating in different color spaces. The BVM CRT cannot do Rec 709, which is the default on the FSI units. On the 2450W you can switch to SMPTE C color space mode, which will make them closer. Also, you can play with the gamma setting as well b/c the programmed gamma of the FSI monitors is probably not exactly the same as the gamma inherent to your particular CRT displays. You can switch this instantly on the FSI units to see if you find a gamma setting that gets you closer to the CRT, if matching the CRT is really what your end users want.

We do deliver our 2450W set at 35fL peak white luminance. You can turn this down substantially if you like by adjusting the backlight setting. I mention this b/c often times CRTs (especially older ones) are nowhere near that bright and the difference in luminance can play a huge role in the perception of color.

So, you can certainly tweak the FSI LCDs to match the CRTs more closely if that is what you want to do. Whether you should do this or not I will leave to you to determine. We do calibrate against a PR-655 Spectroradiometer for all units that ship from us, but these are fundamentally different display technologies and some things like contrast ratio and spectral distribution qualities of the technologies (CRT vs LCE) are not really adjustable and will lend themselves to a slightly different look regardless of how well the devices are matched.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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Fred Connors Jr.
Re: Is it hard to teach old dogs new tricks? Color Correction.
on Feb 8, 2010 at 9:43:31 pm

Well I have give up on trying to match to the old CRTs and in fact I've gotten support for taking them out of the edit suites entirely.

Now I would just like to match the 0750W with the 2450Ws.

With full field bars in to the SDI of both displays the red of the 0750W is very orange in color and the red of the 2450W is way over saturated.

White balance of the 2450W is great.

The White balance of the 0750W is visually off but we decided to leave all the adjustments alone because changing anything just make the red worse.

The default 6500k and Gamma of 2.2 is set on both displays.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Fred


The Troupe - Modern Media Design & Production


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Bram Desmet
Re: Is it hard to teach old dogs new tricks? Color Correction.
on Feb 8, 2010 at 9:55:32 pm

Hi Fred, we use one of the nicest 7" panels we can possibly find for the LM-0750W, but that is NOT a color critical unit. The native color gamut of that monitor is much smaller than the 2450W and is a bit smaller than REC 709 color space. Specifically, the native spectral distribution of that 7" panel limits the amount of red the monitor can produce, the red that comes out is indeed a little towards orange, that is where it falls most short of reaching the specified REC 709 primary.

The 7" monitor is good for establishing critical focus, framing shots, etc., but for any color critical decisions on the 7" you need to rely on the scopes and measurement features built into the monitor. This is IMHO the case with any sub $4,000 7" monitor on the market and at $2,000 it is still 8 bit and feature packed, which a lot of other $2,000 monitors are not. But I will be the first to admit that it will not perfectly match a 2450W.

If the 7" monitor is not living up to your expectations because of the smaller native color gamut please give me a call to discuss your options. Again, I think for under $4,000 you won't find a 'more color critical' 7" LCD monitor, but if you for any reason were under the impression this would be a color critical monitor like the 2450W please contact us, because we certainly never wanted to give you or any other customers that impression.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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Fred Connors Jr.
Re: Is it hard to teach old dogs new tricks? Color Correction.
on Feb 8, 2010 at 10:04:35 pm

No Need to worry...

The 7 inch display is going to be fine for what we need to do.

Once I get the CRTs out of the suites, the 2450 will be out standard.


Fred



The Troupe - Modern Media Design & Production


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Tristan Summers
Re: Is it hard to teach old dogs new tricks? Color Correction.
on Feb 17, 2012 at 10:48:27 pm

very old thread so unlikely to get a response, and pretty off thread, but I am wondering if it is just the probe you need calibrating a BVM with a c100, or do you need the whole unit? Am hunting for probes to use with a BVMD-32, though I have an i1Pro and display and if I ever get time I can probably SpectraCal it myself but curious to find new ways to calibrate old monitors. Sorry, not FS related at all, but there isn't a Sony forum.



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