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2461W Sanity Check

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Justin Stephenson
2461W Sanity Check
on Nov 1, 2011 at 1:35:44 am

Hi all,

First up, I love my monitor and the folks at FSI have been totally awesome - this is not at all a complaint, just a sanity check. I recently got a 2461W. I switched from the 1760. I've spoken to Bram and Johan at FSI about the change and they have been very reassuring and generous with their time. I just wanted to check in with anyone here that is using these monitors on the ground.

i had a 1760 that, to my eye, looked a lot like my computer monitors - but better. I calibrated the computer monitors using an X-rite puck and Coloreyes Pro. D65 etc. etc. I felt very comfortable using the 1760 as my standard.

My 2461W arrived. Beautiful, huge, stunning, but really quite yellow/green compared to the 1760 and my computer monitors with certain materials. I've been working on some animation and design for cinema, using a Display LUT from Eclair to go from LOG-C to Rec 709. My material uses a lot of warm browns (difficult colors to begin with). When I tuned these to work on the 2461, they looked positively red on my computer monitors and on the 1760. Not at all what I would intend. I've tested Srgb and Rec 709 workspace materials to make sure it wasn't some weird log-c/lut thing but i had the same results.

I totally recognize that I'm likely being just a bit jittery - i feel a bit like i've lost a bit of my footing here. The difference between the colors on my monitors makes me a touch nervous. I know my computer monitors (Dell 2410Us), the xrite display 2 puck and color-eyes are do not make an accurate colour monitoring solution compared to the FSI monitor. Up to this point, though, what I've seen on them, color wise, has been reasonably aligned with what I've seen of my material in grading suites, online, broadcast or in DI projection.

The real measure will be when I go to the lab with this stuff, but I just wanted to hear from any of you who have been using the 2461W in rec 709 on the ground. Have you had similar experiences? A bit green/yellow compared to other panels? Johan told me the most consumer/prosumer panels sit on the red side and the when using the native gamut on those panel that everything will look redish/warmer.

I have a date at delux - simply a test - at the end of the week and am hoping that what is see there is what i see in my suite.

I look forward to other users' input on this.

Best,

- j

-------------------------
Design, Animation, Editing, Color for Cinema, Broadcast, Web and Installation.

Gear: 2 X Macpro 8 Core Nehalem, ATTO R380, Proavio EB8MS, nVidia GTX-286, Blackmagic Decklink Studio, AJA LHi, FSI LM-2461W, Tangent Wave, Yamaha HS50Ms W HS10w Sub

Tools: Avid MC 5.5 (formerly FCP), CS 5.5, C4D13, Resolve 8.1, VDMX, Quartz Composer, Processing, Cubase 5.


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Bram Desmet
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Nov 1, 2011 at 2:57:05 am

Hi Justin,

I know you are asking for other user feedback, but as we speak to thousands of customers every year I think I can give you a reasonable summary of the type of feedback we generally get from customers and this may also be helpful to others that come across this post in the future.

Before talking about the feedback we generally get the first thing to realize is that you can take something like a 100% white field (just as an example) and get the same exact readings on various display devices (for example a Plasma, our LM-1760W, our LM-2461W, and a high end projector) as measured by a high end spectroradiometer like a Minolta CS-2000 or Photo Research PR-655, PR-730, etc and yet perceptually these may all still look different to the human eye. This is largely attributable to a concept know as metamerism failure that results from all of these display devices having different spectral distributions. This is one of those extraordinarily tough things to discuss with customers as a monitor manufacturer when someone says they all look a bit different, which one is right, and the only honest answer is that unfortunately they are all objectively correct as measured by the best measuring equipment we can get our hands on ($30,000+ spectroradiometers).

The above not withstanding what we know is that if calibrated with the same high-end spectroradiometer to have pretty much identical calibration results most, but not all, users tend to perceptually experience the following:
1. Compared to most high end professional projectors (a Barco projector for example) operating in Rec 709 mode the LM-2461W tends to be about as perfect of a match to the projector as you will find on an LCD panel.
2. Compared to Plasma displays the LM-2461W tends to look less red and more desaturated. This is partly due to the spectral distribution qualities of the displays, but more often than not is also largely due to the fact that most Plasmas (even ones that are somewhat calibrated) tend to be quite over-saturated in their primaries if not attached to a sophisticated color management system.
3. The LM-1760W and our new LM-2140W/LM-2340W often times look more like prosumer/plasmas displays because they tend to perceptually look warmer/redder...again even though they measure the same as the LM-2461W. However, these LM-1760W/LM-2140W/LM-2340W will look less like many of the high-end projectors used in the industry.
4. The LM-2461W and many other similar ultra wide gamut capable flat panel displays from our competitors tend to exhibit the same characteristics, better match to high end projectors, less of a match to some pro-sumer display devices.

The points above apply to the type of perceptual differences one might expect when setting these various display technologies up with the same high-quality spectroradiometer. Actual perceptual results may be quite different if using lower cost measuring devices.

What we do as a monitor manufacturer to give you flexibility for various applications is give you access to RGB gain/bias, gamma, hue (unlock able from Menu), contrast, brightness, chroma, and peak white luminance settings so you can really adjust the monitor to look however you like. The best we can do is calibrate every unit we sell with the top of the line measuring gear on the market according to well defined industry standards so that at a minimum your starting point is objectively accurate. This way when you measure the display with an equal quality measuring device you will be able to confirm that the monitor is properly aligned. You can then of course adjust the monitor, by eye or whatever other method you choose using the manual toggles, to look how you like, but I will stress that objectively speaking you will almost certainly be making the monitor less, not more, accurate. Adjusting by eye in these days of widely varying spectral distributions is also very much so a double-edged sword because what may look green/yellow to you may very well look more red/magenta to another observer.

To sum up let me say that the type of feedback you give on the LM-2461W is absolutely not uncommon and the story we hear at least a couple of times per month is something like the following:
"I just bought your LM-2461W. It looks more green than what I am used to using. What I am using is an inexpensive projector (or prosumer plasma) that has been calibrated with a mid-grade ($5,000) colorimeter. However, I then compared the LM-2461W to a high-end DI projector at another facility and it matched almost perfectly." Some customers go as far as to then rent or borrow something like a PR-655 (we recommend 5nm spectral bandwidth version) or Minolta CS-2000 and confirm that what they read falls well within acceptable thresholds.

Anyway, I know this is not the end user feedback you were looking for and we have already spoken at length about this, but it is a good question and at FSI we really don't want this to be some sort of unapproachable dark art to people so hopefully this post and our other resources can help explain to other people what to expect from any particular product.

For the more technically inclined crowds let me also just say that in my opinion the only way to completely mitigate metamerism failure would be the adoption of a reference standard display spectral distribution. However, as spectral distribution is not really dynamically adjustable on displays devices I realize that this is not really a realistic goal. I certainly would not want to be the bold party stating that any one technology's spectral distribution should be THE reference spectral distribution, though I imagine someone at some point will try to do precisely something along these lines.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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diego delanoe
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Jan 8, 2012 at 8:09:36 pm

Hello Bram,

I know you said there's a lot of people asking for this similar problems, but here comes again...I just bought the LM-2461W a few months ago and havent had much time to test it, but right now im using it for some color correction, and it does has a tendency to yellow compared to the Panasonic plasma TV and dell monitor, that are more redish, i know that's been talked already, but what im getting is my pure white yellow credits really has a faded yellow tint, the same with the color bars.
When on color bars form final cut or premier, using the blue only function, the columns looks like it should, but there's a line that separates the top bars with the ones they'r supposed to calibrated with.

Diego.

THE PANIC PROPAGANDA


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walter biscardi
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Jan 8, 2012 at 8:25:41 pm

[diego delanoe] "I know you said there's a lot of people asking for this similar problems, but here comes again...I just bought the LM-2461W a few months ago and havent had much time to test it, but right now im using it for some color correction, and it does has a tendency to yellow compared to the Panasonic plasma TV and dell monitor, that are more redish, i know that's been talked already, but what im getting is my pure white yellow credits really has a faded yellow tint, the same with the color bars."

You simply cannot compare your computer monitor, your plasma screen and your Flanders Scientific and expect them all to look the same.

We have Panasonic Professional plasmas screens in all of our edit suite along with Dell UltraSharp 24" computers monitors and Flanders Scientific monitors. We run the 1760W, 1770W, 2460W, 2140W and the 2461W. You can see a photo of our suites here. http://www.biscardicreative.com/Biscardi_Creative_Media_-_Bringing_Art_to_D...

When we are color grading or there is a question of "which monitor is correct?" it's the Flanders Scientific and nothing else. The plasma screens skew red and are generally too bright, the computers monitors are different in every room with some reddish and some yellowish. But what is absolutely 100% consistent across ALL the edit suites are the Flanders Scientific. Doesn't matter which room we look at the images in, they look the same in every suite. That's what a properly calibrated product is supposed to do. Give you consistent color, day in, day out, and even room to room within the same facility.

If you are running a Flanders Scientific monitor in your suite, THAT is the monitor you trust and you adjust all your other monitors to look like that. This seems to be the hardest thing for people to grasp for whatever reason when they get a Flanders. They're "used to the look" from whatever monitors they have been using in the past and suddenly the Flanders looks different because they've never had a properly calibrated monitor before. That monitor is properly calibrated, adjust what you're doing to make the shows look their best on THAT monitor.

What I can tell you is that what we see on our Flanders is how we see the shows play back on network television here in the States. It might be tough to realize what you've been looking at all along without a calibrated monitor was a little off, but once you accept that the FSI is correct, your work will start to look even better.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.

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Bram Desmet
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Jan 8, 2012 at 8:55:27 pm

Diego, please understand that what we do is calibrate the monitor so that it measures as correct as possible according to defined industry standards with a top of the line $30,000 spectroradiometer. If you do not like the results you are welcome to manually change them with the manual RGB Gain/Bias controls, backlight setting, etc, but you can be pretty much guaranteed that any adjustments you make will objectively make the monitor less accurate as you will be changing carefully and objectively calibrated settings.

Color bars tell you absolutely nothing about the white balance of the monitor. What I strongly suspect is that the LM-2461W is probably much darker overall compared to the TV or computer monitor, devices that by default tend to be set up much brighter than industry specified peak white luminance levels for professional video work. If you want to make the LM-2461W much brighter you can do this by going to the system menu and increasing the backlight setting, but objectively speaking you will be making the monitor less, not more accurate for professional use. You should also double check that the monitor is set to Rec 709 as the color space, not DCI P3, on the display alignment menu as that would of course set the monitor in such a way that would look much more yellowish in the white balance.

The human eye is a pretty terrible absolute measuring device, but it is a very good comparative measuring device. If the LM-2461W 100% white looks yellow and dark to you it is only because you are either comparing to or used to something that is probably much brighter and at a different color temperature / white balance.

I don't know what more to say except again reiterate that we get feedback like this every once and awhile and what typically happens is that the customer using the LM-2461W feels it does not look like the consumer/prosumer monitors that he has been used to using. However, when these customers then go evaluate the same material on a well calibrated high-end DI projector also set to display in the same color space they find that they get an extraordinarily good match.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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Justin Stephenson
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Jan 8, 2012 at 9:23:35 pm

Hi Diego,

Having just gone through this, I can confirm the statements made here by Bram and Walter. The 2461W is a reference monitor that has been properly calibrated. It looked yellow/green to me when I first got it too. This is because the panels I had been using up to this point were not as accurate as the 2461W. I looked at a lot of different screens and I can certainly confirm that consumer/prosumer panels tend to skew a bit red comparatively.

In my own experience, I did want my computer monitors to be in the same ballpark as I work a lot with Photoshop, Cinema4D etc, none of which really will output to the 2461W at the resolutions I'm working at. It makes life easier if my design materials are is at least close to where I want it when I'm using just computer monitors.

In order to get my computer monitors closer to the 2461W, I used X-Rite's new i1 Display calibrator and calibrated to sRGB colorspace which is Rec709ish. It gets me close-ish - good enough to not give me a heart attack when I look at them on the 2461W. I do all final picture finishing using the FSI monitor though - that's what I bought it for.

I recently completed a design project for cinema in which I used a lot of earthtones which are notoriously difficult to get spot on. I worked to the FSI monitor throughout the process. I'm happy to report that what I saw in my suite is what I saw in the DI theater - no additional correction was necessary. This is a first for me. The 2461W is a rock solid solid reference point for your material, it just takes a bit of getting used to.

I hope this helps.

- Justin

-------------------------
Design, Animation, Editing, Color for Cinema, Broadcast, Web and Installation.

Gear: 2 X Macpro 8 Core Nehalem, ATTO R380, Proavio EB8MS, nVidia GTX-286, Blackmagic Decklink Studio, AJA LHi, FSI LM-2461W, Tangent Wave, Yamaha HS50Ms W HS10w Sub

Tools: Avid MC 5.5 (formerly FCP), CS 5.5, C4D13, Resolve 8.1, VDMX, Quartz Composer, Processing, Cubase 5.


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diego delanoe
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Jan 9, 2012 at 1:39:55 am

Thanks for all the quick replies. Walter, Bram And Justin.

Bram, is not that i want to make any changes to the calibration, just trying to understand and learn, i realy love the image the monitor has.

So i have another question, a)if im adding some graphics or text that are pure white, but they show a bit yellowish on flanders, how can i get them to look just white on it, b) so even if it shows a bit yellowish on the monitor, when broadcasted it will show white?

I understand that it can be the human eye perception of colors, and that that white im seeing is the real white, but, how can i get the pure white look i want...lifting the brightness of the graphics maybe?

For example, if i would be with a client, and he ask for a pure white opening title, and it shows with a faded yellow tint, how can i turn it around?

Thanks a lot for all the information, and sorry if what im asking sounds silly, but im in a learning process.

THE PANIC PROPAGANDA


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Bram Desmet
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Jan 9, 2012 at 1:00:15 pm

Diego, if you feed the monitor 100% white you will get 100% white onscreen.

You can use the monitor's onboard scopes and advanced measurement feature to verify that when you are attempting to send 100% white from an application that this is what the monitor is actually receiving from your I/O card.

If you are successfully sending 100% white to the monitor and it looks darker or more yellow compared to something else then chances are that this something else (i.e. your computer monitor) is too bright and possibly also not set to the correct correlated color temperature. Again, the eye is not a very good absolute measuring device, its area of expertise is in comparative evaluation. This means that if the LM-2461W looks darker or the white balance looks more yellow it is only because you are comparing it to something brighter and with a different white balance. This pure white your after is essentially very subjective because you are referencing something other than the actual reference monitor that is actually calibrated with a white point as defined by an objective broadcast industry standard. My suggestion, calibrate your other displays so they are at least in the ballpark of the LM-2461W.

Here are some basic things to keep in mind:

1. You can always reset the monitor to default values by going to the system menu and loading the default profile. This will help to ensure that no user adjustments are impacting the calibrated settings of the monitor.

2. If you have two monitors side by side that are both calibrated with the same white balance (Correlated Color Temperature and x,y chromaticity), but you have one set at 120nit and the other set at 240nit then the 120nit unit's 100% white will look grey compared to the 240nit unit. However, remove the 240nit unit from the room and give your eyes a few minutes to adjust and the 120nit unit's 100% white will no longer look grey, especially once you start looking at actual footage. Basically your eye will adjust accordingly and this is one of the big reasons that having multiple displays in the room with different settings can be extremely problematic. Solution=calibrate your other displays so they have a peak white luminance that is at least in the same ballpark as the LM-2461W. (As a quick test you can adjust the backlight on the LM-2461W to a higher than default value, 70 for example, and see how that compares to brighter display in your room).

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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Justin Stephenson
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Jan 9, 2012 at 5:18:32 pm

Hello Diego,

The white looking yellow to you is precisely the issue that Bram is speaking about. Our eyes will adjust to perceive a given light source as white very very quickly. The brightest thing in the room will generally win.

I'm sure you're familiar with the orange of tungsten light and the blue of outdoor light. When dealing with cameras, we have to white balance to the given light source in order to read it as white - the camera adjusts itself to read the white as white even though the color temperature of the light might be blue (sunlight) or green (florescent) or red (tungsten). Our eyes, on the other hand, do this adjustment for us. This is the source of the perception of the yellow whites with your monitor.

If your computer monitors are super bright and biased towards red, the FSI will look very yellow/green to you in comparison to your computer monitors.

This is the reason that most grading suites are very controlled environments - all the lighting is 6500K (daylight balanced), there are lights behind the monitors that reflect off of a neutral grey background, and all the monitors that you look at are calibrated for the same white point and intensity. This last one, I think is likely key in your situation.

Once all the monitors that you are looking at are in the same ballpark, your whites will look white to you.

I did a lot of research on this a couple of months ago when I was up against the same thing. I was very stubborn about it as I felt, after a couple decades of design experience, that my eyes were like instruments and could discern white light from not-white light. After some research, some soul searching (i am not an instrument ;-) and buying the right calibration device for my computer monitors, I came around. I would recommend the i1 Display Pro and calibrating your computer monitors to the intensity and the white point as displayed by the FSI monitor. The Display Pro a recent device and it was design specifically to be used with wide gamut LCD panels.

I cannot stress the difference this made to how I was perceiving the white and other colors on the FSI monitor. As I mentioned before, your computer monitors will never be exactly the same, but it gets you close enough that your eyes, and your client's eyes, will no longer be telling you that the FSI is yellow. The second thing that helped a lot was lighting. Get some inexpensive small CFLs and bounce them off the wall behind your monitor (also make sure the wall is a neutral grey).

I can confidently say that what you see on the FSI is what what your broadcaster will see, what your DI guys will see, and what you'll see in the theater. Its not always what the consumer will see as they are not operating with calibrated displays.

I hope this helps.

- J

-------------------------
Design, Animation, Editing, Color for Cinema, Broadcast, Web and Installation.

Gear: 2 X Macpro 8 Core Nehalem, ATTO R380, Proavio EB8MS, nVidia GTX-286, Blackmagic Decklink Studio, AJA LHi, FSI LM-2461W, Tangent Wave, Yamaha HS50Ms W HS10w Sub

Tools: Avid MC 5.5 (formerly FCP), CS 5.5, C4D13, Resolve 8.1, VDMX, Quartz Composer, Processing, Cubase 5.


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Justin Stephenson
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Nov 4, 2011 at 4:24:10 pm

I have good news regarding my quest to align my computer monitors into the same ballpark as the 2461. Just to recap, its important for me to have them in the same ballpark as a lot of the design elements I produce are generated in C4D, photoshop and other graphics apps that do not reliably output to my BMD card. Its nice to have the colour and contrast of these elements come into compositing at least close to where they should be.

After speaking with Bram some more, I did some further reading about colorometers, pro-sumer monitors and color. Based on my reading I reassessed my display strategy. Here are my findings:

- The Dell U2410s that I have been using are susceptible to a "pink" or war cast. I was definitely experiencing this.
- The i1 Display 2 puck I was using was not designed to be used with wide gamut CCFL monitors

So. I made some changes.

- I swapped my dells for a couple of HP LP2475w monitors in use in a non color sensitive suite.
- I picked up an i1 Display Pro which was designed for wide gamut monitors.
- After some testing, I profiled my monitors using the following settings:
- D65
- Luminance 140
- Native contrast
- CIECAT02 adaptation
- ICC V4
- sRGB tonal curve
- Table Based Profile
- LARGE patch set.


Note: the i1 Profiler software defaults do not work in OSX. OSX does not like the matrix based ICC V4 profiles that the i1 profiler creates. You have to use a Table based profile.

Again. My computer monitors are not a perfect match for the 2461. Nor should they be really, for the price that they were. At the very least, with this new calibrator and the HP monitors, I am most definitely in the same ballpark. The 2461 feels like a definitive reference as opposed to a different world.

Thanks to Bram, again, for his information above and for all the support that he and the FSI team have offered.

- J

-------------------------
Design, Animation, Editing, Color for Cinema, Broadcast, Web and Installation.

Gear: 2 X Macpro 8 Core Nehalem, ATTO R380, Proavio EB8MS, nVidia GTX-286, Blackmagic Decklink Studio, AJA LHi, FSI LM-2461W, Tangent Wave, Yamaha HS50Ms W HS10w Sub

Tools: Avid MC 5.5 (formerly FCP), CS 5.5, C4D13, Resolve 8.1, VDMX, Quartz Composer, Processing, Cubase 5.


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Justin Stephenson
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Nov 17, 2011 at 11:18:26 pm

One more quick update here. I finally got to see some of my material in a DI theater at Delux using the same display LUT I was using here in Resolve.

What I see on my LM-2461W here is, to my eye, the exact same thing I saw in the big big DI theater. This monitor has just paid for itself.

Even though working with the 2461W comes with the painful recognition that I have not been totally accurate with my color for years, I am a very happy camper.

- J

-------------------------
Design, Animation, Editing, Color for Cinema, Broadcast, Web and Installation.

Gear: 2 X Macpro 8 Core Nehalem, ATTO R380, Proavio EB8MS, nVidia GTX-286, Blackmagic Decklink Studio, AJA LHi, FSI LM-2461W, Tangent Wave, Yamaha HS50Ms W HS10w Sub

Tools: Avid MC 5.5 (formerly FCP), CS 5.5, C4D13, Resolve 8.1, VDMX, Quartz Composer, Processing, Cubase 5.


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diego delanoe
Re: 2461W Sanity Check
on Jan 9, 2012 at 9:38:02 pm

Thanks Justin and Bram,

I'll try to get the i1Display Pro to calibrate my monitors, meanwhile im much more confident about what im seeing in the flanders...any other recomendations/ specifictions for an optimal room.

Thanks a Lot.

THE PANIC PROPAGANDA


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