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Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS

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Dennis Dean
Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 19, 2010 at 1:59:40 am

I've been seriously considering a Canon 5D or 7D for video but wondering about how users have found their ability to capture subject motion and camera moves. What do you like, dislike about this aspect?

In one sense either camera would be good to have as I love Canon glass for still photo work - and do quite a bit of it. But moving camera shots and moving subjects (tho not sports) are part of my work.... and I don't need problems with vertical resolution, smearing and the like. I've read where while the cameras are great - you may need to "adjust" your shots, or fit them to the camera. What are you all finding?

ALSO - for FCP users - how are you handling work flow into editing?

Thanks for any insight !

Dennis Dean

Dennis Dean
The Dean Group
-It's about results-
http://www.deangroup.com


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Steve Crow
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 19, 2010 at 3:05:10 am

Trying to maintain focus manually on moving subjects is not easy...you are going to need a follow focus unit (with rails) and something like the Z-Finder to really have a chance.

I don't shoot with automatic focus but I'm lead to believe that it's not great for video anyway but it's something you can try to see if it works for you.


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Dennis Dean
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 19, 2010 at 3:36:15 am

Not worried about me- I know I'll need to wrap some extra gear around the Canon. What I'm looking for is insight on how the CMOS sensors handle the motion. I've heard they are different than CCD chips; what I'm used to in video.

Dennis Dean
The Dean Group
-It's about results-
http://www.deangroup.com


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Michael Sacci
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 19, 2010 at 5:15:29 am

There are samples on the web, search Rolling shutter effect. There is also aliasing and moire issue with all these sensors. They are the nature of the beast.

There is no real time AF, you can use it to focus before you hit record but once you do you are on your own. The USM focusing on the Canon is great for this since it is AF and manual at the same time. The video record does not focus the camera (at least not on the T2i).


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Noah Kadner
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 19, 2010 at 9:30:58 am

Yup lots of artifacts. Are they dealbreakers? That's up to each person's taste.

Noah

Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Canon 5D Mark II and 7D.


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Dave Tally
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 19, 2010 at 2:39:46 pm

I think what you are referring to is the “shutter roll” you get when you pan to fast. Video cameras have spoiled many a person with snap pans. When shooting film, you have to be careful not to pan to fast as well or you will get a stutter effect, the image jumps. There are other issues to consider however. Audio sync is one if you record to anything other than the camera. There are many very successful workarounds for this and it does not propose a serious problem.

I personally have not found either of these to be a problem and truly love the Canon 7D for video.


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Dennis Dean
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 19, 2010 at 7:55:46 pm

Thanks Dave - I was aware of both but looking for user insight. Are you by chance using Final Cut ? If so - what have you found to be most successful in terms of work flow from 7D - FCP ?

Dennis Dean
The Dean Group
-It's about results-
http://www.deangroup.com


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Jonathan Jackson
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 20, 2010 at 12:15:35 am

I use FCP with my 7D and use a fairly straightforward workflow. Once you've transferred your footage, you can use Compressor to transcode to ProRes 422 or use the Canon EOS plug-in (http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=3249) to log, capture, and transcode your footage to ProRes 422. While you don't need the plug-in and can simply use Compressor, I find that it seamlessly incorporates transcoding to the log and transfer process.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 20, 2010 at 2:45:42 am

[Dennis Dean] " I've read where while the cameras are great - you may need to "adjust" your shots, or fit them to the camera. What are you all finding?"

There are is a term you should know: "rolling shutter". It is the devil's own torment for those shooting fast-action video on these cameras.

The Canon cameras are best suited for shooting elderly folks out on a stroll... or glaciers on the move... or trees growing... not a football or basketball game. Hockey? Unthinkable.

If an accurate image is important to you, use these cameras to shoot fast action at your peril.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Bill Davis
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 21, 2010 at 11:36:21 pm

This is what I call a "wart behind Cindy Crawford's knee" critique.

Unless you're a professional dermatologist - staring at the dammed wart is proof positive that you don't yet "get" this whole DSLR thing.

YES. DSLR's are flawed. NO. They don't do everything you'd want to do in a comprehensive video career.

But god in heaven the reason that these things are the hottest, most talked about technology in the past 5 years is because they do something that is both SINGULAR as well as EXTRAORDINARY.

The image quality is a SUPERMAN style LEAP over what's been available to consumers before. PLUS they're CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP compared to anything close to their league that's ever been widely available before.

There are lots of reasonable arguments against DSLRs for specific uses. And if you fall in one of those categories. For heavens sake avoid them.

If, however, you'd like to learn to shoot almost UNIMAGINABLY beautiful footage with an inexpensieve rig - AND are willing to devote a LOT of time and energy to learning how to master, light, lens choices, scene composition, double system audio, and the dozen other things that go hand in hand with excellence in image making - there's NEVER been a less expensive way to do that.

Or go right ahead and wait for something more "perfect." Just don't bet upset with what are now THOUSANES of folks in line ahead of you who managed to overlook what the camera does NOT do perfectly - in favor of learning how to master what it DOES do so well.



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Michael Kammes
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 21, 2010 at 11:39:25 pm

Nothing to add - but damn - great real world reply, Bill.



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
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Dave LaRonde
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 22, 2010 at 4:54:00 pm

[Bill Davis] "Just don't bet upset with what are now THOUSANES of folks in line ahead of you who managed to overlook what the camera does NOT do perfectly - in favor of learning how to master what it DOES do so well."

Considering that the original poster specifically asked how a DSLR deals with MOTION, I'd say my critique was the kind of info the gent actually wanted, Mr. DSLR Fanboy.

I consider your written tongue-lashing as water off a duck's back.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Bill Davis
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 22, 2010 at 5:52:11 pm

Wow, Dave. It's nice to have a new official title (Mr. DSLR Fanboy!) - even if one I don't think I'm particularly qualified to hold said title considering that I've shot paid work on more than 25 cameras over the course of my career ranging from a 35mm Mitchell BMC through various Iki's Sonys, JVC's Panasonics, and now, yes, even the increasingly ubiquitous Canon 5d!

Yes, the OP specifically asked about motion artifacting - and you answered him well and wisely FROM THE PERSPECTIVE of someone who works in a TV station and (one suspects) who's experience revolves largely around local broadcast work. The 5DmkII is NOT a good choice for that.

Of course, one good question might be what IS a good choice in the broadcast world right now? The network O&Os in my area seem not to have a clue. I've seen XDcam, P2, even Compact Flash! in the field shooting for news here in the Phoenix ADI - that's a market in FLUX if i've ever seen one! PLUS scared to death of shrinking revenue - they're now starting to out the camera ops and having the freeking REPORTERS shoot their own stand ups and B-ROLL half the time. Who'd a thunk it?

It's been YEARS since I worked in local broadcast TV and back then, there wasn't anything even remotely similar to the 5d. In fact, when I started, there wasn't even Beta - let alone Beta SP. It was all 1" type C as a rule. Then I went into advertising where 35mm film was the quality standard.

But that was then, this is now. And my personal reading between the lines was that if the OP listened to your advice, they would miss out on a profound change — that whether or not it has ANY value to your personal work in local television — *IS* changing the landscape of video work everywhere else.

DSLR video is NOT the be all and end all. But even in it's infancy, on PROFESSIONAL worth it's difficult to deny the pathway it's carving through the industry.

The NEXT generation of cameras will have SIGNIFICANTLY better resolution. So much better that they require new ways of thinking and new ways of approaching work. Yeah, motion issues are one small part of the puzzle. But in exchange for battling that - you are given a frame that has the potential to look WAY, WAY better than even the BEST shot video of a decade ago that the image quality game ends for anyone who understands V-DSLRs before it begins.

YOUR business - local broadcast will be among the last to change. Why? Because every local station where I know people is in nearly crisis management mode - laying off the "old school" folks and trying DESPERATELY to come to grips with the new production paradigms. Heck, I went to a local Final Cut Pro meeting last week and two of the new attendees were 50 something local network affiliate broadcast dudes trying desperately not to be made obsolete by kids who cut their teeth on DV cams. (A good description of myself, BTW)

And whatever is next will likely marry the chip size of today's DSLR with the convenience of the traditional camera form factor - AND that chip size will mean you'd BETTER be able to understand and operate in a world of 35mm chip size depth of field and sensor geometry.

In sum, you're right from your perspective. And the OP would do well to listen to you... IF he's on the same path that you are.

I suspect that he is not.

So I'll stand by my thoughts on the matter.



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Dave LaRonde
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 22, 2010 at 6:29:37 pm

Aw, c'mon.

We both know that as soon as Canon gets its act together, it'll make a CMOS camera actually designed for video production, with interchangeable lenses, sensible operator controls, a real viewfinder and everything. Canon's been known to make TV cameras in the past, and it'll make more in the future. Maybe it'll be able to solve the problem of fast horizontal motion as well. And have good audio with real XLR inputs to boot.

And everybody'll drop those DSLRs like hot potatoes. Or not -- they'd still be excellent for taking nice still pictures, shooting video without looking like you're shooting video, time lapses and stop-motion animation.


Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Looking for feedback on motion with CMOS
on Nov 22, 2010 at 5:44:56 pm

[Dennis Dean] "...for FCP users - how are you handling work flow into editing? "

Shane Ross describes how to deal with Canon DSLR video in FCP in the following video tutorial:
http://library.creativecow.net/ross_shane/tapeless-workflow_fcp-7/1

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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