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DSLR and 24 fps questions...

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Bojan Bojović
DSLR and 24 fps questions...
on Dec 12, 2015 at 6:48:19 pm

Hello everyone...

Here in Europe television is 25fps. I am shooting 24fps to achieve that "cinematic" look, but my videos are full of that famous 24fps judder.
It is unbearable while panning and it is well known, but even if my camera stands on a tripod fast moving subjects are also choppy and not very pleasing to the eyes.

The problem is that TV I am seeing is 25fps, but I simply do not see judder anywhere, even in some old shows and movies from the '70s, which are 100% analog and 24fps.

I know all about 180 degree rule, so it is not about that.
Is there something different with DSLR video compared to "real" cinematic cameras used in the last 100 years, or there is something else going wrong here?


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omer emır
Re: DSLR and 24 fps questions...
on Dec 13, 2015 at 6:10:53 am

Every movement faster than 24fps/sec will make judder. You may try shoot in higher frame rate like 50fps


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Mike Smith
Re: DSLR and 24 fps questions...
on Dec 13, 2015 at 12:24:39 pm

The "cinematic" look - how would you define that? The history of cinema - and current practice - shows us that there are many different "looks" that are achievable, and that have been desired and admired on different projects. The "deep focus" of Citizen Kane? The shallow depth of field and medium-telephoto portraiture of romances and many comedies, or the grittiness of Mean Streets? The ultra-polished effects of, say, Inception, or the off-the-streets realism of the french new wave, of the Dogma group?

So, what style does your project suit? What do you (your cinematographer) want for it, in terms of look?

TV historically and still typically uses interlaced frames .. effectively doubling the frame rate and allowing for faster in-frame movement before picture tearing. If you want to use progressive-scan then you need to think like a film cameraman and pan, tilt and track slower, keep the speed of motion of objects across the frame slower than you could do with interlaced footage.

If your outlet is TV then why not shoot 25p, if you must have the progressive scan element? The big plus for progressive scan is on output to film - really not likely to happen on most projects ever, and even less so now as digital cinema projection spreads everywhere.


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Bojan Bojović
Re: DSLR and 24 fps questions...
on Dec 13, 2015 at 6:07:42 pm

Thank you...

When I say "cinematic" look I mean on all that hype about 24 fps, like it is the only thing that makes footage looks more like movie. I understand that there is so much more about it.

To make things more simple, I understand now why TV looks more fluid even at 25 FPS. As for my videos, I like 50 FPS because it is fluid and clear, but it lacks that special feel of the 24 FPS I must say, because it looks too real.

I am shooting music videos mostly, and I decided to use 24 FPS with steady shoots, and with little to moderate motion, but with steady-cam and other scenes with fast moving subjects or panning to use 50 FPS, and slow it down by 25% or 35%.

Does this sound logical to you?


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Mike Smith
Re: DSLR and 24 fps questions...
on Dec 16, 2015 at 12:30:49 pm
Last Edited By Mike Smith on Dec 16, 2015 at 5:56:46 pm

It sounds good to be shooting at higher frame rate for faster motion within or across the frame, though I've found slo-mo cleanest on whole-number dividers of frame rates. But if your eye says it looks clean enough at different slo-mo rates, great.

Otherwise, if you're conforming your 50fps footage down to 25 by dropping frames and then conforming to 24fps, wouldn't you expect your tearing problems on movement within the frame to reappear - a function of how our eyes integrate motion within the frame, affected by distance travelled per frame and almost certainly also by "viewing angle" - how big the screen is and how close we sit to it (as well as the quality of the display).

Sometimes we just have to accept that there are limits to what we can show. Better to go super-fast - whip pan, as it were, and embrace the effect - or slow enough to hold image quality. It's sitting on that margin where it's nearly nice but not quite that can feel uncomfortable to watch, I think.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: DSLR and 24 fps questions...
on Jan 7, 2016 at 3:40:23 am

I'd like to know if you could REALLY tell the difference between 24 fps and 25fps footage. Can you actually discern a difference of one lousy frame per second? I doubt it!

"Cinematic" my foot.... more like "frame rate snobbery".

You also need to learn how to deal with the phenomenon of judder, which DP's have worked around since there was motion picture film. Take a class or something.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Jeff Pulera
Re: DSLR and 24 fps questions...
on Jan 7, 2016 at 2:59:55 pm

I'm in the US where 29.97fps has long been the standard, so in that case, 24p (23.976fps) does have quite a different look! However, as Dave stated, how is 24p going to look vastly different than 25p? Who would see the difference?

I think you may be missing a piece of the puzzle. TV broadcasts use interlaced video. Meaning that each frame is split into two fields, the even and odd scan lines. So in the case of a PAL TV broadcast, it is not 25p, but rather 50i. There are 25 frames split into 50 fields. Each field is captured in 1/50 of a second, so there is a temporal difference between each field, which means they are captured at different times.

So, when viewing 50i, each of the 50 fields has small movements of the subject (or the panning), so it looks much smoother than 25p or 24p. That is the difference I believe you are seeing, or looking for. The difference not between 25p and 24p, but rather between 50i and 25p. With 25p, there are no fields. Each frame is complete, no fields, so motion is being captured only 25 times a second rather than 50.

Shoot and edit at 25p. This should provide the filmic look you are after, without the bad side effects of converting 24p to 25p. If your production ends up on TV, you can certainly convert 25p to 50i easy enough.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers


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