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DSLR dilemma

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Jim Makichuk
DSLR dilemma
on Nov 14, 2013 at 11:28:39 pm

I'm new to DSLR, Canon 60d. Have lots of experience with Sony HVR cameras (with cassettes) and am forcing myself into this new thing. I've learned that audio on 60d is awful and that I need a separate recorder w/lav(Zoom,etc).Okay with that,I have lots of double system experience with film.

But here's the thing, with Sony HVR's I can shoot an hour straight, however with DLSR it stops apparently after 12 min or so (2 GB). How does one manage to do interviews with this stopping and starting?

Do I just shoot and with dlsr camera until it stops, press button and start over again. Meanwhile audio from zoom recorder is still on as it's on interviewee's belt.

Don't want to do a clap or other to give camera a start point again? Or just shoot it all, stop&start and try to figure out audio after. I can re-sync manually of course.

Again, how do you do interviews with stop/start issue of DSLR's.


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George Goodman
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 12:56:08 am

Use Pluraleyes to automatically sync your audio track with your collected onboard audio:

http://www.redgiant.com/products/all/pluraleyes/

You'll want to pay attention to your camera to make sure you catch the exact moment it cuts off. This is definitely a big weakness of DSLR's. The last thing you want is a line of dialogue that's gold that you didn't catch on video. That said, get lots of b-roll (sometimes them smiling or laughing is enough). That way, if you don't have the video of them saying something, but you have the audio, you can still use it and just cover it up.


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Chris Wright
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 2:07:19 am

gh2, gh3 dlsr unlimited recording time


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Jim Makichuk
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 2:44:15 am

Sorry, don't understand?


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Jason Jenkins
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 5:07:45 pm

[Jim Makichuk] "Sorry, don't understand?"

He's saying that with the Panasonic GH series EVIL cameras, the record time is only limited to the size of the SD card. I once recorded for 7 hours straight with my GH2. No stopping and restarting!

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Jim Makichuk
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 6:10:38 pm

Looked up GH3 camera... darn... why didn't you tell me this before :)
Actually it looks pretty darn good, but question is why can GH3 shoot for longer?

I thought it's about the sensor getting warm or some kind of tax put on DSLR's if they gave more time?


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Jason Jenkins
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 6:25:27 pm

[Jim Makichuk] "why can GH3 shoot for longer? "

Superior engineering :)

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Fernando Mol
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 2:42:15 pm

Adobe Premiere CC can sync audio and video automatically. Not as flexible as Plural Eyes, but it's a nice inside app solution.

http://www.fernandomol.com


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Steve Crow
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 8:14:15 pm

A few things that will work with any camera. First, start a new clip while the interview subject is listening to you ask the next question, it only takes a couple of seconds to start a new clip.

Avoid letting the camera run to its max clip length and stopping itself - I try never go beyond 10 minutes for instance. There are lots of reports online of various camera models failing to close the file properly when this happens and reporting the file as corrupt meaning that clip is lost unless you go to special efforts to try and recover it. Same with the battery, never let the battery completely run out of power while you are recording - that will corrupt the file too.

Steve Crow
Crow Digital Media
http://www.CrowDigitalMedia.com


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Rob Manning
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 15, 2013 at 9:05:34 pm
Last Edited By Rob Manning on Nov 15, 2013 at 9:09:56 pm

If you have a second camera, do an overlap shoot with another angle, or use a still or motion/effect.

In post, Slow down, zoom to where one cannot see the lip synch, pan from one side (comp) then cross fade back to real time, or show object being discussed, the facility, audience, product, etc. to sew up the video gap.

As Steve points out, the golden sound bite looms however.

The limitations are caused (generally) by international tariffs and yes Panasonic devised a method to circumvent the time limits (Superior marketing).

Also, some cheap some not, HD enabled DSLRs can go straight to an external HDMI recorder like the Ninja 2, which like the GH series will then only be limited by battery life and storage capacity so as NOT to shut down at 5 (D90, D3S), 12 (Canon), 20 or 29 minutes (D7000) and newer etc.

RM


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Johnny Wu
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 16, 2013 at 2:33:04 pm

Congratulations of getting in DSLR shooting

I know I'm a bit late on responding but I hope it helps.

many of Canon's DSLR cameras recording format for SDCards is that it would stops about 12minutes due to the write format is FAT32 system, They did since recently, with firmware update (like t4i, 5d3, 6d, 70d, 7d, etc) you can record up to 30mins continuously (the file would be broken down to several 12mins long clips internally).

When synching up the audio with external devices, you will be able to sync it easily, and if you do the quick stop and record, you really don't need to slate again since you can use the audio's wave file to sync it up fairly quickly (I can do that faster than pluraleyes can do).

60D can only record up to 12mins and it will stop, so the stop and go would be useful, if you are using a sdcard that is faster than 40MB/s write speed, you should probably have like 5-10sec audio lost.

Best practice when I do video shoot with the 60d back then, was to stop interviews right about 11mins. for long events, 60d may not be a smart thing to do unless you have a separate camera or don't care of the lost of 5-10 seconds during stop/record.

Lastly, you may want to keep in mind that when you sync the audio and video together with Canon's DSLRs (most of them), you need to make sure to move the audio track two frames back so it will sync with the video 100% (trust me, even though your playback on your editing system may look synced, when you export, you will notice the differences when showing on big tv).

I believe that issue was 'resolved' with the 6d, 70d cameras. (I haven't had to do the frame adjustment, but I do have to do that with 5D3).

Johnny



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Jim Makichuk
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 16, 2013 at 8:21:44 pm

Thanks all of you, lots of suggestions. Looks like I'll just give it a try experimenting first and then either shoot with the 60d or just rent a Sony HD camera and not have to play with the Canon.

I think I made a mistake with the DSLR's, bad audio and the clip issue, I should have tried before I bought.


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Ken Jones
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 16, 2013 at 10:30:49 pm

I own a pair of Nikon D800 DSLRs. The D800 will roll for 20 minutes without stopping. I generally stop/start while the interviewer is asking a question. I shoot with both at the same time and get excellent results. I try to put the cameras as close together as possible and shot one on a medium shot and one on a close up. Here is an example:


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Bill Bruner
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 16, 2013 at 10:58:28 pm
Last Edited By Bill Bruner on Nov 16, 2013 at 11:00:41 pm

Jim - This is the dirty little secret of mirror box DSLRs, which the manufacturers don't mention in their advertising. They are all 30 minute (or less) "video clip" cameras, not video cameras.

Instead of going back to an HD camcorder, you might want to trade the 60D in for a mirrorless $998 Panasonic GH3 for long form interviews, if you can. It has better resolution than the Canons, more depth of field control than your camcorder, more codec flexibility and more frame rates than any DSLR, virtually unlimited continuous video recording outside of the EU, manual audio gain, LCD sound meters and a headphone jack in a water-resistant body below $1000 (body only).

Here is what this camera can do in an interview setting (sound recorded in-camera):



Hope this is helpful and good luck!

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution


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Jim Makichuk
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 16, 2013 at 11:14:13 pm

I think you're right, chris suggested the G3 a few post above and I checked it out. I've rented Sony HD's and Panasonic also which are great but I can't swing for a $5000 camera. I like the idea of dslr lenses though. I might drop by Samy's here in LA, they stock almost everything and try it out.

Only question about G3 is audio? DSLR's tend to not have great audio and are used with recorders like Zoom and Tascom as camera audio not great. Although being able to record for 40-50 minutes without stopping solves the audio problem by using recorder.


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Steve Crow
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 17, 2013 at 12:08:15 am

Jim,

Unless you are willing to spend many tens of thousands of dollars, a traditional videocamera is going to have a very hard time giving you the filmic look that $3000 or so gives you in a full frame DSLR which is the very reason they are so popular. I remember having a OLD Canon HV20 or something like that I tried to use with a RedRock Micro cinema lens adapter but it was such a pain in the ass to set up properly that I returned the RedRock in favor of, eventually, my Canon DSLR.

I am not sure why you would even consider going back to the traditional videocamera world unless its for convenience and maybe price.

Even the Canon 6D, their entry level full frame camera which sells for under $2,000 (body only), is going to give a much more pleasing image than any pro or prosumer traditional videocamera that is in any kind of reasonable price range for the normal human being.

So, going back to a Sony traditional videocamera is going back to the video look which is fine if you are happy with that look. Even my lowly Canon T2i, which you can now get for probably under $400 used, has a superior image to those vastly more expensive traditional videocameras I was mentioning earlier. I used to shoot everything with the Panasonic AG-HVX200 myself but sold it go the DSLR route fulltime.

I have nothing against the Panasonic G3 cameras in terms of the body itself even though I opt to shoot with Canons myself. I'd only make sure of the lens selection meets your needs first but there's usually options to work around any lens issues with adapters and so on.

Then there's the whole new and often pricey world of "hybrid" DSLR/videocam cameras like Red, BlackMagic, the Canon C100-300-500 Cinema line and so on that try to merge the best qualities of the two, representing a whole new class of camera in my estimation. I'm not sure if anyone has come up with a clever category name for them yet. Just looking at price, the Black Cinema Pocket Cinema Cam is hard to beat at under $1,000 but I believe the sensor size is no larger than a APS-C sensor.

I couldn't tell exactly from the phrasing of your latest comment regarding DSLR audio quality but I hope you realize that no one really uses the Zoom or Tascam for its microphone. It's just the recording device into which we plug very high quality microphone systems. So this gives a DSLR a very high quality audio recording solution. Granted, it IS a pain to have deal with dual audio but I believe in your original post you said you were used to handling that.

JIm - Best of luck in finding the solution that is right for you be it a DSLR, a hybrid or something else! :-)

Steve Crow
Crow Digital Media
http://www.CrowDigitalMedia.com


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Steve Crow
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 17, 2013 at 12:17:49 am

Bill,

If you think back to the Panavision style Hollywood film cameras - they could only shoot for what...15 or 20 minutes per film load? (I'm hazy on the details but I remember it wasn't long)

So I don't think the 12 minute recording time by itself relegates a camera to a video "clip" device. In my experience 12 minutes is plenty of time for narrative, documentary, news and straight up interview work. Honestly, it takes me less than 3 seconds to hit the stop record and record button to start a new clip and give myself another 12 minutes recording time - if I overrun that 12 minute window yes I'm screwed but it's only happened to me maybe once.

Someone else mentiond using external recorders like the Atmos to get "unlimited" recording time but for that you have to make sure your camera gives a "clean" HDMI out signal meaning without overlays.

Steve Crow
Crow Digital Media
http://www.CrowDigitalMedia.com


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Jim Makichuk
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 17, 2013 at 1:01:18 am

I go back to 16mm news filming, and 400 feet lasted about 18 minutes or so, had to load a lotta mags. I worked alot on camera, mostly 16mm and finally changed to screenwriting. Less carrying stuff.

But when I discovered FCP3 years ago I got back in for little docs in between movies and enjoyed DV just for that.

I'm doing a doc on a WW11 guy who was in Pacific campaign and wanted to use DSLR's just to see how it works vs $3000 cameras, and yes, most of the shooting is on the run as is another doc about a sax player with a disease.

But now that I can get longer video I like to not interrupt the interviewee with distractions... It took me two years to even use cards rather than cassettes!! At any rate, thanks for all the advice, it's really helpful.


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Bill Bruner
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 17, 2013 at 2:20:44 pm

I agree 100%, Jim. I started in Super 8 in film school and moved up to 16mm magazines. In Super 8 at 24fps, a 50' cartridge was 2 and a half minutes!

But now that I can shoot for hours without interruption, a camera that requires a restart every 12 to 30 minutes seems like a throwback to the last century, and interrupts the flow of the work - especially an interview or a play.

Good luck with your doc - it sounds like a great project.

Bill


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Jim Makichuk
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Nov 18, 2013 at 4:48:47 am

These little docs keep me off the streets, never make any money from them but they're a lot of fun... I miss the old CP-16 camera but my favorite was the Arri 16 BL, a beautiful film camera.


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Roger Martin
Re: DSLR dilemma
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:40:09 pm

I had a Super 8 and never ran out of "film".
I guess my attention span was not very long.
I've had many under $1000 Videocams since but much prefer my Nikon V1 with PowerZoom lens.
I've had or tried nearly every Nikon DSLR made + the 5D2. The best of the lot is the new D5300.
That is because of the 1080P 60 Video quality, but it only last 10 minutes due to file limits.

So, I ordered a GH3 + 14-140 video lens just to extend recording + hopefully improve FullTime AutoFocus.
I should get it January 9-14th and will compare with the D5300 by shooting both at same time with Azden mics.

The only affordable external recorder that does 1080P 60 is the Odyssey7, that has not been released yet.
So I will send back the Panasonic and get it, if the Nikon proves better Video image quality.


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