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Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions

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gautam pandey
Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions
on Oct 30, 2010 at 12:23:29 pm

Hi,

I'm looking for Storage to integrate with CatDV and understand what the typical setup would look like.

Do i need a dedicated computer to be the Server or is the Storage standalone?

Would really appreciate any light that can be shed on this.. a little confused..

We have 4 FCP stations which need to connect to a central storage. We would also like everything to be backed up on LTO.

There is about 2000 hours of footage in DV,HDV and HDCAM.

We do have some budget constraints so a little wary of Fibre channel options ( or am i wrong in thinking that they are way expensive? )

I read that 10GB Ethernet can handle Full HD as well.

Thanks!


Gautam Pandey


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bryson jones
Re: Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions
on Oct 30, 2010 at 4:07:45 pm

First, 10GB ethernet is probably more expensive than fibre at this point. Marketing folks like to let you get into it with the "ethernet is cheap, right?" thought.

The Small Tree 20 port 10Gb is $17,000 and you can get a qlogic 16 port 4Gb fibre switch for under $5k. HBA's are priced about the same now.

However, that has no bearing on CatDV. The product doesn't care where the media is, only that the catalog is created on a machine that can see it. Then, unless you want to have it live all the time, you can put the media away or disconnect it. For instance, if you had media on a firewire drive, you'd connect it to a system, catalog it, maybe create a proxy onto a server share or NAS (we're talking 1Gb ethernet) and then publish that catalog to the server. When a machine connects to the CatDV server, if it doesn't have the original drive mounted, it shows the proxy, if it has the server share mounted. If it doesn't have either, it shows you the thumbnails, all the metadata and of course shows you the path to where the file is so you can mount it.

I've done CatDV on systems from 2.5" portable hard drives to 100's of TB's of fibre storage. They work the same, it's just how big and how fast.

Pick your storage to make your editing work, get an idea of what your initial proxy/footage needs are, and then your CatDV integrator should be able to help you pick the expensive stuff (editorial storage) and then the less expensive stuff (proxy storage).

Let Matt on here know if you need a demo, it's easier to see this than to explain it, but basically, "Storage Independent" is the term to remember.

By the way, If you have less than 4 seats, you can get a small volume based fibre SAN together for less than $20k. (less if you don't need much room) If you're working compressed, you can get an ethernet based system for similar money (Final Share etc). Look around on the other boards here for storage solution ideas.

bryson

bryson "at" hidefcowboy.com

hidefcowboy.com


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Gautam Pandey
Re: Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions
on Nov 11, 2010 at 8:03:11 am

Thanks a bunch! the cloud seems to be lifting

Gautam Pandey
http://www.riverbankstudios.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions
on Nov 7, 2010 at 11:18:19 pm

replies below -
2000 hours of ProRes422HQ media is 225TB of storage. You have not specified your edit systems, and you have not specified what resolution or what codec you are working at. Even at regular ProRes422 (not HQ) this is still 151 TB of storage. THIS IS EXPENSIVE. You will spend a LOT of money for 150 - 225 TB of storage (2000 hours of media) - I don't care what brand you purchase, from any company. The single most expensive part of your project is the amount of disk drive space that you need, and this is more than Disney Broadcast Operations has in Orlando, FL. !

more replies below -


Hi,


Do i need a dedicated computer to be the Server or is the Storage standalone?

These are all complex questions - for basic operation - no you do not need a seperate computer. But if you are planning on creating smaller proxy files of your enormous amount of footage, this will take a lot of time, and processing power to create 2000 hours of proxy footage, so this would require another computer (in my opinion) - this is not for CAT DV - this is for transcoding to another smaller format for the proxy files (possibly using Telestream Episode 6 for this) - you can do this in CAT DV, but it will take a long time, and bog down your system. for normal operations, the answer is NO - you can run CAT DV Workgroup or Server right on the same computer as your shared volume is attached to.


Would really appreciate any light that can be shed on this.. a little confused..

REPLY - you are building a BIG system with 2000 hours of media - this IS confusing, this is a big complex system.


We have 4 FCP stations which need to connect to a central storage.

REPLY - there are many wonderful solutions on the market that can do this. If you work in ProRes422 or 422HQ, ethernet solutions like Final Share are teriffic. But if you need higher bandwidth, with uncompressed HD or tons of rendering, then a small fibre product like Studio Network Solutions EVO may be a better solution for you, for this application. But EVO can only have up to 64TB of storage on their basic system, and you need A LOT MORE than this - so it's not an easy answer on a post on a web forum.



We would also like everything to be backed up on LTO.

REPLY - easy - Cache-A LTO is the standard tape backup, but even the LTO5 is only 1.5 TB per tape, and you need 150 - 225 Terabytes backed up - this is a LOT OF BACKUP - if you think this will be a budget system, you are wrong - this is a big expensive solution, because of all the storage you are asking for.


There is about 2000 hours of footage in DV,HDV and HDCAM.

REPLY - this is a lot, if you need it on line all the time. You can backup to LTO, and just bring online the media that you need, to reduce the cost of this, but then, you will have to use CAT DV to track your assets, knowing where you have backed up your media.


We do have some budget constraints so a little wary of Fibre channel options ( or am i wrong in thinking that they are way expensive? )

REPLY - Fibre channel is the least of your worries. Once you find out how much a single 32TB drive chassis costs, and then you need a minimum of 5 of them - this is what will be expensive - not the Fibre, or ethernet or 10Gig equipment.


I read that 10GB Ethernet can handle Full HD as well.

REPLY - 10G can handle full HD - but what is "full HD" to you ? You have 2000 hours of media. Even with compressed HD (that can be handled by regular ethernet), you need a ton of expensive storage. If you think that you are going to get this much storage for full uncompressed HD (which can be handled by 10Gig ethernet or fibre channel), then you are kidding yourself - this will cost a FORTUNE of money.

Consider your storage costs first. You are trying to build a complex system, because of the amount of media that you need to manage. Certainly, CAT DV, Cache-A LTO are excellet for doing this, but for your shared storage system, your main concern is how much storage can you afford. A basic ethernet or Fibre system for 4 clients will be between $20,000 and $30,000 for 32 Terabytes of storage. This is nothing compared to what you actually need, if in fact you need 2000 hours of media on disk drives.

Bob Zelin



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Gautam Pandey
Re: Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions
on Nov 11, 2010 at 8:16:17 am

Thanks again Bob!!

Have really cleared a lot of things.

2000 hours is a lot, but of this HD would be about 50 hours. But this would increase at an additional 2 hours per month.

What codecs to use was also a matter i was struggling with.

8 bit uncompressed for SD and Apple ProRes HQ for HD is what i was thinking.

Time is one thing we have though :), So to expand as we go was the idea, couldnt afford such a large investment in one go.

Also after much reading.. looking at 32 GB as online storage and for the proxy's and all the Hi Res on LTO ( like you had suggested as well)

Do you think w would need to back up the LTO as well for safety?


I was looking at EVO for storage. What is your opinion of Quantum as a storage solution for both online and LTO?

Thanks everyone again for all the help! really really appreciate it

Gautam Pandey
http://www.riverbankstudios.com


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Matthew Stamos
Re: Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions
on Nov 11, 2010 at 6:13:03 pm

Cache-A and SNS EVO are a fabulous combination along with CatDV. All these products combine together in a many workflow combinations! If you would like more details or to connect with a integrator that handles all of these products contact me off list at matts@jbanda.com.


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Allan White
Re: Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions
on Nov 18, 2010 at 9:43:53 pm

Why try to have 2000 hours of anything online? It's just overkill.

We have 30 years of tapes in our vault, so we scan it all in with Live Capture (also from Squarebox) and save the previews as H.264. Same goes for file-based media - copy to a 1TB bare drive (2-bay eSata Dock), which gets backed up to a mirror disk.

2000 hours of MPEG-4 fits in a MUCH smaller spot. Use that to make basic edit decisions, then relink/recapture at online res for final edits (to, of course, a SAN of some sort. Great recs here from Z).

You would save tens of thousands of dollars - with minimal impact on production - with this approach.

Of course, if money is no object, enjoy a 200TB SAN if you can! =)

- Allan White, Video Producer, Luis Palau Assoc.

Quad 3Ghz Mac Pro, 10GB RAM, X1900 GPU, XSAN, CatDV Server


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Gautam Pandey
Re: Typical hardware Setup and Storage Solutions
on Nov 19, 2010 at 3:13:01 am

Thanks for the post Allan!

Yes i'm aware it can get crazy expensive with those kind of hours, but the issue we have
is that our stock is geting old and the tapes are run often and now some tapes have glitches and noise.

The only other viable option seems to be to have everything on LTO which is cheaper and have a smaller online server which will hold all the proxies and be used for the final edits.

Parts of our archive is also over 30 years old.. so a bit of topic.. how do you maintain the tapes :)

Thanks!

Gautam Pandey
http://www.riverbankstudios.com


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