FORUMS: list search recent posts

Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading

COW Forums : DaVinci Resolve

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Duke Sweden
Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 12:44:58 pm

I've recently gotten to the point where my skin tones are pretty much spot on. I've had the waveform open in Resolve and have forgotten to check the vectorscope until the other day. I noticed that even though my skin tones look great, the vectorscope showed them veering towards red. But when I tweak it so that it's on the skin tone line, my skin tones turn decidedly green. Not a green tint, but green.

I have been using Hue vs. Sat to move the line closer to the skin tone line. But as I said, when I get it directly over the skin tone line, my skin tone turns green. Is there a specific or proper way to adjust skin tones. And if I'm getting good skin tone is it really necessary to have it align with the skin tone line? My monitor is NOT calibrated but it's pretty close, close enough that getting my skin tone and skin tone line aligned shouldn't cause my skin to turn green. Hope I'm not being to convoluted here.

Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index

Tero Ahlfors
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 1:05:24 pm

[Duke Sweden] "And if I'm getting good skin tone is it really necessary to have it align with the skin tone line?"

No. The line is a reference and not a rule. Also the line is actually a legacy thing when vectorscopes had an in phase-line for NTSC signals.


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 1:21:25 pm

Thanks, Tero! Another nagging question I can scratch off the list ☺

Here's a screen shot from a recent shoot. On my monitor it looks dead on (slightly blue because it was cold and this was what I actually looked like).

How does it look on your monitor?


Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index


Tero Ahlfors
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 1:24:25 pm

[Duke Sweden] "How does it look on your monitor?"

Underexposed


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 1:36:51 pm

OK, that brings up another point that has always bothered me. When you say underexposed are you looking at it from the viewpoint of a color corrected image without taking into consideration that I color graded it too look "late in the day"?

That's always driven me nuts. I'll put up a graded shot and people will say it's too dark or too this or that, then I'll see another video that looks absolutely terrible regardless of what the person was going for, super crushed blacks or greenish tint, etc., and it gets praised to high heaven.

Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 1:44:15 pm

How's this? This is what I would consider just color correction, no grading.


Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index


Joseph Owens
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 5:43:49 pm

Well its all about context.

If you wanted to convey a depressed, world-is-weighing-down-on-me, Shawshank-blue... you're on the right track.
People who are altering their image fascinate me when they are trying to hit some numerical value. Like the In-phase vector, which -- the person who referred to it as the "I-Bar" and sort of instituted it as a general flesh-tone reference may never live down -- does have a *very* ball-park value, and only because the NTSC engineers chose it as an important hue when designing the YIQ encoding system. It is virtually meaningless now.

About 15 years ago, there was a TIG (Telecine Interest Group) discussion about grading fads and styles n which the takeaway boiled down to -- at some point when film historians are looking at treatments, they will be able to determine what year the film was produced in by the "look" that was prevalent at the time. One item that was discussed that re-appears often is the pre-occupation that "fleshtone" be a certain value, regardless of the ambient lighting or environmental feel. And we can do it, because "Power Windows." And so you get... in a green room, where all the lighting is green, the "battle control room with radar displays and stuff is green, green green... and the actors faces are all a lovely tan-amber. Sure. Teeth like a Colgate commercial. Audience don't necessarily register that stuff, but in the back of their minds they start getting the idea that they are being had. Does that take them out of the movie? Suspension of Disbelief is a delicate thing.

jPo, CSI

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 9:52:39 pm
Last Edited By Chris Wright on Apr 6, 2018 at 10:22:31 pm

this is what I would call a purely technical grade. levels 5-90(allows room to grade) ire 50 at 18% grey. saturation channel 140. hue-skin tone line. white balance set for global tint average in HLS scope. I forgot to add, I also set my black and white point white balance. I use the histogram as it is easier to see rgb values. everything falls into +-1 pixel rgb tolerance.



I start all my images this way. this way, they not only match scene to scene, but leaves room for creative grading later.


Return to posts index

Joseph Owens
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 7, 2018 at 1:14:17 am

[Chris Wright] "also set my black and white point white balance."

Beard is really that blue?

jPo, CSI

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


Return to posts index


Chris Wright
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 7, 2018 at 1:28:19 am

i'm tracking that, lol. like I said, its a technical grade. you grade the aesthetic grade later. I don't do multi-whitepoint/secondaries grading until all my shots match. its goes a lot faster to fix it for all, than for separate shots.
if your curious from an ire point of view, the beard isn't the brightest object and so the whole image obviously won't be fixed in only 3 whitepoints as black, white, mid aren't enough for aesthetic grading. I did play around with it but didn't save a 'final look'.


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 7, 2018 at 2:29:12 am
Last Edited By Chris Wright on Apr 7, 2018 at 3:04:35 am

here's an example of 5 point white balancing. the shirt and coat both reflect blue onto the white. you could make it more perfect with a secondary, but I thought this would be a good example illustrating why local colors can affect overall white balance if your not careful. Also, try eye dropping the beard directly, the whole image will completely go orange.

beard police pic.


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 7, 2018 at 4:11:37 am

On my monitor, your example has a greenish tint to it. The skin tone is good but everything else veers towards green. And looking at the example I put up, it looks nowhere near as good as what I have been getting. I don't know why it's tinted towards blue that much.

Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index


Chris Wright
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 6, 2018 at 11:24:18 pm

I recommend buying a color probe like colormunki. this should negate a lot of the problems you are experiencing with
scopes not matching what your eyes see. If you want to try a free self calibration, let me know, I have made a munsel chart that works really well.(just for fun to see if I could improve on perceptual grading)


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 7, 2018 at 4:09:20 am

Did you say free? Sure! 😉 What do you need from me? You did say free, right? ☺

Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index

Joseph Owens
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 7, 2018 at 4:07:07 pm

There used to be a term "best light" which was a dailies-workflow designed to try to please dP's and still fit within a producer's budget and the post-house's need to achieve a shred of mark-up on services. Basically, a step up from a "one-light" (which was totally up for abuse in interpretation) and a "matched" set of dailies. But the transfer operator was only allowed RGB primary correction so as not to "hoop" the finishing colorist. The best advice I ever got was "just lay it over the origin." If you know how to read a vectorscope, you will know what that means.

Colorists did not have access to "histograms" until the first software/commodity-platform-based grading applications were introduced. Never knew what to do with them until the issue was discussed with a LUT developer... the takeaway at least for me was, hmmm... not really all that helpful.

Anyway here is my take... primaries only, no secondaries or curves:Neutral_warm.jpg

If this is the right uploaded image.... if you scrub over the beard, it still seems to have tint -- eventually you also have to overcome the perceptual difference with simultaneous dynamic contrast/ complementary contrast.

jPo, CSI

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


Return to posts index


Chris Wright
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 7, 2018 at 4:37:10 pm
Last Edited By Chris Wright on Apr 7, 2018 at 4:40:37 pm

also, I have found that google chrome is whitepoint shifting all my pictures. I can't even tell what I'm posting! argg!


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: self calibration
on Apr 7, 2018 at 7:56:28 pm

windows has a built in self color calibration. you can also try my free perceptual chart. https://f1.creativecow.net/12336/munsel-color-self-calibration?uploaded=fil...


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: self calibration
on Apr 8, 2018 at 2:51:11 am

Even though this is a Samsung 4K HDTV, it's a bitch to calibrate. The built in Windows calibration doesn't work. When I try to fix the gamma so that the black circle disappears, it never does, not even close. Same with contrast and brightness. I can not get it to the recommended sample shots. So.... I'll give your test pattern a try. In the mean time here is an uncorrected straight out of the camera V Log version of the still you guys have had so much fun playing with. Maybe it will be easier for you to tweak.


Here's a .png version, if this forum allows 6 gig files


Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index


Chris Wright
Re: self calibration
on Apr 8, 2018 at 3:06:56 am

Have you calibrated your Tv's controls as well? If your Tv isn't partially calibrated, windows can't do anything about it.
I forgot to tell you, there's also a Disney Wow disk that will calibrate your Tv so that bluray looks good.


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: self calibration
on Apr 8, 2018 at 3:26:51 am

Yes, that's the part for adjusting contrast and brightness, the tv controls. I can't get it to match the "ideal" settings no matter to which extreme I adjust them.

I know about Disney Wow. Come on Chris, you know I'm just a kid 😉 Remember, my only question was whether my vectorscope has to be on the skin line if my skin tones are good. Anyway, have fun playing with the uncorrected V Log still. I'm curious to see what it will look like on my screen.

Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: self calibration
on Apr 8, 2018 at 5:06:28 am

I didn't use scopes, I eyeballed it. I did a few tricks here. See if you can find them. I added bloom to highlights,
set white balance to D55 soft light and color compressed to 128. I didn't do any sharpening. This is pure color contrast.



Return to posts index


Duke Sweden
Re: self calibration
on Apr 8, 2018 at 11:40:25 am

ok, great. Now, you see that dominant tree behind me "stage left"? On my monitor it's a golden brown, and the entire image has a golden yellow tint to it. Is that how it looks on your monitor? The tree is actually grayish. If that's how it looks on your monitor then I can just adjust my monitor so it looks more true to life and I'll be as calibrated as someone like me needs it to be.

Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: self calibration
on Apr 8, 2018 at 4:34:45 pm
Last Edited By Chris Wright on Apr 8, 2018 at 4:45:40 pm

lol, you can't calibrate your screen based off of another's person's memory color or what they think it should look like.
my tree is a little yellow because on the right side, I wanted the sunny yellow leaves like around 800am on a bright sunny day and the warm wall off the house. that being said, nothing is past 128 film print saturation, so if anything looks garish, then your saturation looks too high as all colors are no more saturated than the most colorful possible painting on a wall.

did my self calibration chart help you at all? resolve has a built in auto color chart so you can compare memory colors
to what your actually getting. If I made an educated guess based upon you saying that the tree is grey and that I lowered reds by -31 for skin tone, and factored in then the camera's sensor probably reacts similarly to yellow, this image would be more inline for memory colors. also, your white point should be D65 sRGB when encoded.


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: self calibration
on Apr 8, 2018 at 5:42:04 pm

Hmmm? What? Oh, sorry. I don't care about this anymore. I'm makin' paper airplanes! 😉
Seriously, Chris, you lost me a while ago. While I appreciate your level of knowledge I know I'll never get that anal, for lack of a better word, about color grading to within an inch of legally acceptable levels. When I think about it, except for that weird video of mine that sort of went viral, and which received a lot of praise for its skin tones, believe it or not, no one will ever watch my stuff except me so I might as well make it look good on my monitors.

Cheers!

Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index

Marc Wielage
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 12, 2018 at 9:52:56 am

I'd use tracking windows to pull the guy out of the background, and consider using very slight defocus to shift our attention to the actor. But a lot depends on context and intent.

As to Waveform monitors: read what Steve Hullfish had to say in this free booklet written years ago for Tektronix. It applies mainly to Tek, but the general principles apply to all color corrections. First important point: the "skintone line" is not a skintone line.

A Guide to Using Waveform Monitors as Artistic Tools in Color Grading
https://www.tek.com/document/primer/guide-using-waveform-monitors-artistic-...


Return to posts index

Duke Sweden
Re: Question about skin tones and Vectorscope reading
on Apr 12, 2018 at 11:42:30 am

Thanks, Marc! I've always wanted to learn the technique for drawing myself out from the background (other than bokeh, of course). I'll have to look up a tut on it. Cheers!

Dell XPS 8920
Intel i7 core 7700 build
GeForce GTX 1050ti
32 Gigs of RAM
3 7200 RPM SATA Drives
Windows 10 64-bit
DaVinci Resolve 14.3


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2018 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]