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My Head is Going to Explode

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Presley Hunter
My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 3, 2017 at 8:22:29 pm

I have just started getting into video editing and my machine is 90-90 percent done. These are the specs.

5820K CPU (I am afraid to overclock, yes I know wimpy)
32GB Ram
EVGA GTX 1070
Evo 850 250GB OS/Apps
2x 250 HDD
1x 1TB HDD

The disk configuration is where my head starts to hurt. I read things about cache drives, scratch disk, media drive, export drive, "Fake a pass to make a pass"(Basketball reference sorry).

I am recording my youth basketball team using a GoPro in 4k and Panasonic LX100 in 4k. Yes I will be that coach on the side line with a GoPro strapped to his head. My wife will have the LX100 recording. I plan on sharing the games with the kids and their parents.

My Question is this I am willing to buy another drive, but could I get away with buying an NVME M.2 Samsung EVO 500GB or MydigitalSSD BPX 480GB NVME M.2 and set it up as follows:

Samsung NVME M.2 EVO/MyDigitialSSD for OS/APPS/Cache/Scratch etc
EVO 250GB for final exports/renders in 1080p most likely
2x 250 for what ever else

Let me know if this is okay and if I have enough hard drive space.


Thanks In Advance
The Weird Looking Coach


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 3, 2017 at 9:23:38 pm

Please don't shoot 4K.

You are entering a world of needless pain.

4K looks no better than 1080 in any normal viewing environment.

It is far more heavily compressed (which is mostly very bad news indeed).

And it eats disk space and system resources for no discernible return.

(Sorry, I had to get that off my chest, but if you follow my advice, you won't regret it for one moment.)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Joseph Owens
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 3, 2017 at 11:52:16 pm

[Presley Hunter] " if I have enough hard drive space."

Going to echo Simon here: You are wasting your time and effort with "4K" as it is compressed in the world of GoPro, especially using a dime-sized lens (unless you are also selling your footage to Ang Lee or JJ Abrams or someone else) because no, for sure you don't or won't ever have enough drive space, CPU speed, GPU processing, or sanity left at the end of "When is my highlight reel going to be ready?"

You might also have a better chance of things being in focus. The only advantage the larger resolution format might have is if you are contemplating doing a major amount of image stabilization. So if you think your head hurts now...

And also do recall that Michael Schumacher was wearing a GoPro scabbed onto his helmet when he had his skiing accident. That has not turned out well.

jPo, CSI

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 4, 2017 at 12:02:51 am

[Joseph Owens] "You might also have a better chance of things being in focus."

Don't get me started on focus issues.

I very rarely see 4K footage that is anything other than horribly soft.*

Which when you think about it entirely defeats the object of going for all those extra pixels in the first place.



* With the exception of very, very expensively shot material.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Presley Hunter
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 4, 2017 at 1:03:58 am

Okay so if I am recording in 1080p will my hard drive configuration be okay or should I change something? Its just very confusing with all this editing mumbo jumbo being thrown around. Besides I need to really learn to edit just in case one of my kids curses out a ref and I need to edit that out of the video. Just kidding my kids are good.


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Joseph Owens
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 4, 2017 at 4:07:46 pm

[Presley Hunter] "Okay so if I am recording in 1080p will my hard drive configuration be okay"

This should really be one of your last concerns (storage capacity); these days anything under a terabyte (at least as I consider it) is a "delivery" drive. I regularly ship out 250 GB SSD drives with a single set of deliverables to broadcasters, who generally want a mezzanine master (the finished all-tracks texted final version) with textless elements, sound stems, captions, cue sheets, QA forms.... etc., etc.. For your purposes, I expect your catalog of source material is going to balloon.

Even with a compact codec - and you will likely be dealing with some kind of H.264 file type, can't imagine you going with a broadcast format like DnXHD, and you won't be discarding the material as you go, it will persist over the season for I don't know how many games. Currently, storage is going for about $50 / TB for external expansion drives. Ten years ago, that was $1K / TB. I will go through 12 TB like water. A three-part series currently in production is now at around 80 TB of raw media (4K source).

The issue you will start having is with sustained data transfer rates between your editing software and the storage. Make sure your attached storage is fast -- Thunderbolt seems like the interface du jour that will keep up with your demands for more, more, more. Now, now, now. Also be aware (assuming this is a Windows platform) that attached storage is vulnerable to subtle "mounting" issues as the directory system typically ignores named conventions and goes with the old c:/ d:/ e:/ etc. hierarchy so if you restart the system or remount drives, you may get mysteriously missing media because a drive may be misidentified just because it was re-labelled by the operating system as it mounted out of order. When you build an editing system, it is not at all like building a game platform, you are building a single machine with myriad moving parts.

When you start exporting finished products, keep them segregated from the rest of the media, back the masters up 2 or 3 times. Be prepared to revise and update them regularly. What format and how are you distributing the final masters to your viewers?

What editing software are you launching out with?

jPo, CSI

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Presley Hunter
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 4, 2017 at 9:50:32 pm

I am exporting as 1080p MP4 and using Davinci Resolve for the editing. My main concern was disk configuration and because the season is 10 games plus tournaments I wanted to make sure I had enough speed and space. At the end of the year, hopefully all the kids will have some good footage and I will send the mp4 to the parents.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 4, 2017 at 10:06:25 pm

I would strongly advise against using this as your production codec. Resolve doesn't like it at all.

Far better to use some flavour of DNx or ProRes if you can.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Presley Hunter
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 4, 2017 at 10:19:27 pm

Ok will do. DNx or ProRes. I kow Resolve has a few different DNx options should I choose any of them or is there one specific for 1080p?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 4, 2017 at 10:29:07 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 4, 2017 at 10:30:24 pm

It depends on a number of factors including your frame rate, which I don't think you've told us.

Best thing is to do some tests for yourself with the various 1080p options and see what the best trade-off is between compression and quality.

My guess is with the amount of material you are shooting you will want to go for the most compression that is consistent with keeping the quality you are happy with but it's your call.

This list is helpful to give you an overview of how DNx works.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Presley Hunter
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 5, 2017 at 10:32:56 am

I will be shooting in 1080p 60fps and using DNXHD 240 codec. Funny i read to just shoot 1080p raw. Being a newb I did the reasarch and felt violated. Okay these are 11/12 year old kids and the amount of cash to spend on a camera that shoots raw is not in the budget. I think I have a good starting point and my disk configuration will be:

850 evo 250gb os/apps
Nvme ssd 500gb media/cache/etc
850 evo 250gb exports
2 tb for offloading projects/backups/etc

And as soon as ram comes back down in price another 32gb

Thanks for all the help to everyone.


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Joseph Owens
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 5, 2017 at 9:18:14 pm

[Presley Hunter] "the season is 10 games plus tournaments I wanted to make sure I had enough speed and space. "

Here is where the rubber meets the road.

DnXHD @60fps generates around 1.25 GB per minute as opposed to around 100 or so MB for mp4. (About 10% plus or minus). That's why I consider 250 GB drives to be a delivery asset, not for production.

One game, taking a wild guess, if its anything like televised sports, might be around -what- 2.5 hours, (150 minutes) per camera, so I'd be setting aside 300 GB for storage. One game. Even if you stepped back to mp4, still 30 GB as a rule-of-thumb estimate, and you'd be able to keep 8 games before one of those 250 GB was rendered functionally full.

Resolve is an evolved color grading application -- it is being leveraged into being an editor, and it does have a very demanding hardware requirement. The notion of it being "free" is based on assuming that you are running it on a very substantial platform, which is not free or even cheap. It is not "beginner" software, and it does NOT like Long-GOP codecs like mp4 that require very substantial CPU processing to make the media available to the application. Operators continually report glitchy performance with highly-compressed media.

If you are a sports coach and not a professional editor, even a modest investment in a pay-editor like Sony Vegas, a trial/subscription to Adobe Premiere, even iMovie or dare I say it, Final Cut X -- may save you a ton of grief and a learning curve that will appear to be straight up. If only for the choice in logistics you may have to make with respect to how much source media you will be dealing with. Frankly I work with a few Premiere / Media Composer editors who rear in fright at the Resolve interface. They don't want to know about the COLOR page. All I have to say is "Color page" and it has the same effect as saying "Frau Blucher."

You think your head hurts now....?

jPo, CSI

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 5, 2017 at 9:45:19 pm

OK, Presley, I'm sure you're feeling that Joseph is being mean here, but he really, really isn't.

All of his advice there is absolutely spot on.

I would very much second his suggestion that you don't go with Resolve for this.

Premiere or FCP X are a much more suitable choice that will make your life infinitely easier, not least because you can comfortably edit long GOP media natively.

We're not trying to be unhelpful, but really Resolve isn't the answer to your problems here.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Presley Hunter
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 6, 2017 at 12:53:21 am

LOL... If that is being mean he hasn't met my wife. I appreciate all of this information and because the kids will enjoy their own highlight and blooper video its worth the abuse.


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Presley Hunter
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 6, 2017 at 12:50:01 am

OK, I did a few tutorials with Resolve and it didn't seem too bad, but then again I am new so you can take that with a grain of salt. I will give the trial versions of Premiere and Vegas a shot also something called Hitfilm which is free for one of there versions. Subscription based Premiere is something that makes me cringe, but I guess its the sign of the times. Now as far as the kids game they last for about an hour and I don't mind spending money on hard drive space. I am actually excited about learning, so the headache is worth it for now.


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Marc Wielage
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 6, 2017 at 2:21:57 am

[Joseph Owens] "They don't want to know about the COLOR page. All I have to say is "Color page" and it has the same effect as saying "Frau Blucher.""
Hump? What hump?


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Marc Wielage
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 5, 2017 at 1:41:13 am

It's sobering to reflect that 90% of all questions here boil down to:

1) how can I get inexpensive hardware to provide better performance? [and the answer is often, "get a much more powerful computer"]

2) how can I get highly-compressed source files to play back in real time? [and that answer is often, "transcode the material to a less-compressed format]

3) how do I use such-and-such a feature [RTFM]?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 5, 2017 at 9:53:53 pm

It's called "democratisation of the tools of production".

There are some zealots who think it's a fantastic idea.

And then there's the reality.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Marc Wielage
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 6, 2017 at 2:20:27 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "It's called "democratisation of the tools of production"."
As we've seen over the past decade, one man's democratization is another man's destabilization.

I don't mind lower-cost tools; the problem is when people assume they can also get by with low experience and low money for talent. And this problem has affected production, actors, cinematographers, editors, sound mixers, colorists, and VFX artists. There's a point where producers need to have realistic expectations.


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Joseph Owens
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 6, 2017 at 4:39:02 am

I've been arguing against this loose abuse of the word "democratization" since the first time I heard it applied to this kind of situation. The correct, accurate and precise word is "popularization."

I did not vote for this mess, either with my dollars or endorsement of the notion of point-and-click media production. I was perfectly happy working in somebody else's $1.2M suite on somebody else's dime, collecting a salary. Although I am more perfectly happy when the cheques come in with my name on them. But this is the way of the world: Surf or Die.

Marc - One hump or two?

(Blucher)

jPo, CSI

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 6, 2017 at 9:16:08 am

[Joseph Owens] "I've been arguing against this loose abuse of the word "democratization" since the first time I heard it applied to this kind of situation."

I think both you and Marc have me down as a champion of this.

I am not!

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Glenn Sakatch
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 7, 2017 at 9:06:02 pm

Presley, at the end of the day, you have to be realistic as to what your project is trying to achieve.

You have clearly made the effort by researching some "real world" solutions for editing and outputting, but please don't forget that in the end you are making videos (for free) for your kids, and your kids friends. They will be posted on Youtube or Vimeo, and will be a great source of entertainment for the parents and grandparents, but you do not need to be concerning yourself with trying to get them into the Polish film festival or the International Emmy awards.

I've been doing this for quite a while as a professional, and i have also gone through many years as the Hockey team parent with all the equipment and resources to make the year end video each season. Its easy to get carried away...just remember your audience.
(i admit i once built a hockey arena in 3d for the year end video)

If you are deliverying 1080, then shoot in 1080 (if possible)
If your camera shoots at H.264, then yes, you will quickly learn that you need to transcode to DNX or ProRes. DNX 115 will be plenty for your purposes, will save a lot of space, and will help your machine run better. You don't have a client sitting over your shoulder, questioning why it is taking 30 minutes to output your 5 min video, so don't worry if it isn't the fastest process in the world.

Get a good 4 TB USB 3 drive for your box and format it with the label "Media" Transcode to this.
You may want to store your original H.264s somewhere else. If you need to retranscode in the future, here is your camera original backup.
Don't put your clips or media on your desktop. Don't render to your desktop, or your C drive at all. Keep it clean.
Maybe put a second internal drive in your system (doesn't need to be an SSD) and use it to save your projects, maybe have a music library on it. Maybe stills from the Team photo shoot can go there.

Do not shoot 4k.
Do not buy a $5000.00 Raid storage system
Do not take any crap from the Refs...sorry, that was a bad flashback....respect in sport....respect in sport....respect in sport.

Glenn


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Presley Hunter
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 7, 2017 at 10:13:11 pm
Last Edited By Presley Hunter on Jan 7, 2017 at 11:53:25 pm

Thanks Glenn,

So basically I would only need

C Drive
Another Internal Drive
4TB USB 3.0 External Drive


I understand not rendering to the C Drive, but why not the desktop? If not the desktop should I get another external drive for rendering? My bad desktop as in the windows desktop not desktop computer. UHHHH between one of my kids thinking too much on the court and me thinking too much about this its crazy land for me.


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Glenn Sakatch
Re: My Head is Going to Explode
on Jan 8, 2017 at 4:19:00 am

Doing anything to your desktop is the same as doing it to you c drive. The desktop is just a folder on the C drive, and can become a junk yar very quickly if you start working that way.

For what you are going to do, your "renders" will be your final outputs...so maybe a bunch of 2,3 4 min pieces at MP4 or maybe a master file at dnxHD? Nothing too crazy. You could setup an "outputs" folder on your external drive, or your second internal drive.

Yes you could add another drive somewhere, but i don't think you will find it that necessary.

The beauty with a PC is you can add more storage if and when you need it.

You will not be unable to work if you don't have another drive.

Glenn


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