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23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps

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Mario League
23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps
on Feb 6, 2016 at 6:37:42 pm

Hi Guys, I have a question, maybe you can help me out. The question is about setting up the proper frame rate for a documentary. For the first time, I’m planning to use Resolve editing too so I’ll try to do everything in resolve so I do not have to do a roundtrip.

Anyway, I shot with blackmagic cameras Raw footage, one is 2.5k and the other a pocket 1080. The frame rate I shot both was 23.976. The delivery for TV here in Canada is 29.978. So the final product must be at 29.978. The question here is, should I set up first Master Project Settings> Timeline Frame Rate at 29.978 and playback at 24 so later when I’m done I can export to 29.978? Or should I set up the my Timeline frame rate at 23.976? The issue if I set it up at 23.976 how am I going to know what’s exact 46 mins at 29.978 because I’m working at 23.976.

Thanks

Mario


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David Baud
Re: 23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps
on Feb 7, 2016 at 12:29:46 am

First I believe even in Canada, we are talking about a frame rate of 29.97 fps (not 29.978)! (30/1.001)

If you shot @ 23.976 fps, I would cut your documentary at the same frame rate of 23.976 fps.
For delivery to broadcast television requiring 29.97, I would add 2:3 pull-down when creating your master (this was commonly done when telecine film shot at 24 and transferred to NTSC video).

As far as duration goes, your documentary will be exactly the same duration playing at 23.976 fps or at 29.97 fps with 2:3 pull-down.

HTH,

David Baud
Post & VFX
KOSMOS PRODUCTIONS
Denver - Paris
http://www.kosmos-productions.com



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Mario League
Re: 23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps
on Feb 7, 2016 at 5:38:59 am

Thanks David.

M


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David Baud
Re: 23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps
on Feb 7, 2016 at 6:28:34 am

One thing I should add to be completely accurate, is that broadcasters will ask you to deliver a drop frame master @ 29.97fps to compensate overtime for that non integer frame rate.

That means in the process you will add 2 frames for every minute of your non-drop frame program, except for the multiple of 10 min.

For example if your program is 30 min. long in non-drop frame, it will be actually 30 min. 1 sec. 24 frames long in drop frame:
(30 min x 2 frames)-((30 min / 10 min)x 2 frames) = 54 frames = 1 sec 24 frames

HTH

David Baud
Post & VFX
KOSMOS PRODUCTIONS
Denver - Paris
http://www.kosmos-productions.com



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Mario League
Re: 23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps
on Feb 7, 2016 at 4:15:03 pm

OK, Thanks David.

mario


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Glenn Sakatch
Re: 23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps
on Feb 7, 2016 at 6:17:49 pm

You need to realize what your delivery specs are from the broadcaster. You also need to worry about your timing.

I'm not a fan of resolves editing functionality yet, but that is a different topic. If doing this in Avid you would typically edit in 23.98, but monitor you timing at 29.97 dropframe. Failure to do your timing in 29.97 will result in all sorts of issues down the road.

Im not sure that Resolve will offer this option, so you may want to consider that before you get going. A proper workflow with some simple tests, before you start editing will easily help you with any round trip issues.

DO NOT START YOUR EDIT UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND YOUR PROCESS!


But back to my first paragraph, get a spec sheet from the broadcaster. Understand their break structure. (CBC is going to ask you end on a full second and start on a full second for each segment.) This can really screw with your mind when doing your final timing.
They may also accept a 23.98 version of the program, depending on who you are submitting it to.

In any case, yes, cut in 23.98, and keep a version of your 23.98 file. You can even have the sound house work from that copy. When everything is done, you then convert it to 29.97 df for the broadcaster. The 23.98 (Universal) master is fairly common these days for internation dubs as well as DVD copies of the program.

Glenn


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Mario League
Re: 23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps
on Feb 7, 2016 at 6:43:49 pm

Thanks Glenn. I did a few shots round trip and worked great with AvidMC but as I said I want to give it a shot and see if I can do everything in resolve.

[Glenn Sakatch] "monitor you timing at 29.97 dropframe. Failure to do your timing in 29.97 will result in all sorts of issues down the road."

I'm concern about this issue. As you said, I'll test my workflow first and check the broadcaster specs before I start. Normally I do short form projects and this is my first long format doc.


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Joseph Owens
Re: 23.976 footage delivery to 29.978 fps
on Feb 8, 2016 at 5:53:24 pm

[Glenn Sakatch] " get a spec sheet from the broadcaster. Understand their break structure. (CBC is going to ask you end on a full second and start on a full second for each segment.) This can really screw with your mind when doing your final timing.
They may also accept a 23.98 version of the program, depending on who you are submitting it to."




Gee, I wonder which production we're talking about...????

Note also that because of the convoluted relationship between 23.98, or 23.9759 if you want to get pedantic, and 29.97 interlaced Drop Frame, there are some things that you cannot mathematically achieve with any workflow that currently exists, other than tweaking each frame-base timeline by a frame or two here and there -- the "on-zeroes" stipulation, for example.

If you have done this for long enough and worked through enough scenarios, eventually you figure out that 10 Hours Drop Frame starts on a C-frame. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the workflow yet.
It also goes some distance in at least putting the problem of hitting those contractually-obligated requirements on the table. Very, very, few NLEs deal with the conversion accurately, and pretty much none of them are field-aware to the point where you can work out where your redundant B, C (mixed-field) and D-Frames are going to land. They just don't, and most of the time, can't, do the math.

Complicating this is the fundamental issue of trying to conform a 29.97 interlaced deliverable on a 23.98 progressive sequence. The 4/5 *frame* fractional relationship means that you cannot control where any given edit boundary will occur. Because of drop frame, even the old "A'Frame" rule-of-thumb, that "A's" land on zeroes and fives does not hold after the first minute, because the next "A" will land on a ;02. That's just the legacy we have with NTSC, unfortunately.

All you can do is build in some slop so that you can jog something by a frame or two, after the fact (in the FRC 23.98 -->29.97 export), to hit the numbers. If your deliverable has some bumpers going into breaks, for example, that might give you the slack you may need. Try hard not to screw up your audio sync on all the stems that that will affect.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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