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Todd Hallam
tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 13, 2014 at 6:52:23 pm

Trying to decide on a control panel. Google search doesn't reveal much. I know the Element is twice the price of the MC Color but is it worth the cost and have all the connection problems plaguing MC Color in the past been addressed with release 10.1?

Todd Hallam
SideshowFX
http://www.sideshowfx.com


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jake blackstone
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 13, 2014 at 8:13:33 pm

What connection problems??? Going on three years using MC Color and I NEVER had any connection problems.


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Todd Hallam
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 13, 2014 at 8:29:41 pm

I have read quite a few posts (reviews and forums) stating that MC Color connection drops quite consistently when using Resolve usually when switching apps or even if a notification comes in.

Todd Hallam
SideshowFX
http://www.sideshowfx.com


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Sascha Haber
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 13, 2014 at 10:34:56 pm

Thats a no brainer...
Seriously...get the Element...start with the balls...I love my balls...
Best balls i scratched in a loooong time :)
The MC has...peanuts...like a Trackman marble...
And that terrible ethernet protocol is so unstable, I would not have it around.
I have to admit I do not use the knobs and buttons as much as I thought I would, the second one on the shopping list is the transport panel.
But the BK is just unmatched.

A slice of color...

Resolve 10.1.0.021
Colorist / VFX / Aerial footage nerd
http://vimeo.com/saschahaber


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Todd Hallam
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 13, 2014 at 10:39:48 pm

Thanks Sascha

I used to have an old JL Cooper with the ethernet interface and hated the setup of that one so that was already a turnoff for me. I have been sitting on the fence as to whether go for the full panel or just the TK. Not sure how much I'd use the MF and it just seems to be as quick if not quicker to use key commands or dare I say it, the mouse to do what the Bt and Kb modules do.

Todd Hallam
SideshowFX
http://www.sideshowfx.com


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Margus Voll
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 13, 2014 at 11:07:08 pm

I agree with Sascha on that one.

--

Margus

http://iconstudios.eu
https://vimeo.com/iconstudioseu/videos

DaVinci 10, OSX 10.8.5
MacPro 5.1 2x2,93 24GB
GUI 4000 / GPU GTX 780
DL 4K
Eizo Color
Scope Box
Full Ligthspace CMS


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Colin Travers
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 13, 2014 at 11:20:27 pm

Elements 100% - usb hub likely needed but so easy to install and it never fails. Balls are way better too ; ) pause.

Connection issues at multiple shops using the MC Color over the last few years, clients in the room all of a sudden stops working - this has happened multiple times with the correct setup for MC etc - not reliable.


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jake blackstone
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 14, 2014 at 2:24:49 am

I couldn't care less which panel you decide to use. I just have a problem with this bullshit about the ethernet connection problems. There are zero problems with the ethernet connection. You like big balls Sasha, I get it, good for you, but stop spreading this MC Color ethernet connection problems FUD, because you look silly claiming it. This, so called, problem just doesn't exist no matter how many times you repeat it...


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Todd Hallam
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 14, 2014 at 3:12:14 am

Jake I have heard personally from professional colorists and a salesman today who have confirmed this has been a long standing issue and in addition a quick google search reveals the same thing so it appears it's not bullshit. You're not having problems, good for you and hope it continues but I respectfully suggest you dial down the criticism of others especially in a thread that was merely meant to ask for guidance. If you truly don't care what panel I choose, write your comments somewhere else.

Todd Hallam
SideshowFX
http://www.sideshowfx.com


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jake blackstone
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 28, 2014 at 6:42:33 am
Last Edited By jake blackstone on Feb 28, 2014 at 6:53:50 am

And I'm telling you after using all panels in this order- Wave, MC Color-Elements, I decided to go back to MC Color. I have been on MC Color for close to three years and I had NEVER had a disconnect, NEVER. Did I say NEVER? I don't know why your hearsay would be more important, that someone who had used the MC Color panel for that long. As I said, I couldn't care less what panel people using. Personally, I think Elements with it's present mapping is a waste of money, because I can work equally effective with MC Color as with much more expensive Elements. But that just me. So, enjoy your new panel, good luck with it, but for the love of god stop the bullshit about MC Color disconnects. Because it's just that-BULL SHIT! MC Color doesn't have the disconnect problem!!!
BTW, enjoy your Elements with Resolve, but god forbid you'd like to use it with another software. What? They didn't warn you? Resolve will not relinquish the control, even if you shot down Resolve. Oops. On the other hand I can have number of different software running and MC Color will just switch back and fourth between all of them. And how about using your Elements with other computers? Well you'd need to unplug and re-connect it to another computer. Not with MC Color. If your MC Color is connected to the Ethernet hub, all you have o do is to flip the control to another computer and voila, the other computer now controls it. No fumbling with connectors in the back. Anyway, good luck.
Thank you.


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Margus Voll
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 28, 2014 at 6:59:16 am

Maybe you just have super good and clean setup then ?

I have used my clients win machine with MC and yes it did loose the connection and had
hard time initialising.

Also the whole win7 experience was pretty bad. Older and weaker mac seemed a lot smoother to use
in all aspects.

--

Margus

http://iconstudios.eu
https://vimeo.com/iconstudioseu/videos

DaVinci 10, OSX 10.8.5
MacPro 5.1 2x2,93 24GB
GUI 4000 / GPU GTX 780
DL 4K
Eizo Color
Scope Box
Full Ligthspace CMS


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Nat Jencks
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 16, 2014 at 3:14:42 am

FWIW, I have owned both the MC Color and the Elements. I had constant problems with the euphonics ethernet connection, despite repeated calls with support, physically replacing the unit, clean installs, the works. Same issues with both Resolve and Scratch. Similar issues at the one facility I freelance at the briefly had the MC Color.

Obviously some configurations of the MC Color work well and without issue. Others don't. This is a real issue that I have personally seen in many installs.

Other than that my opinion is that the MC color is a great little panel, but the buttons are too small. The idea with a control surface is that you should be able to use it without looking at it. the buttons on the MC color are way too small targets to use easily without looking down, in my opinion.

I like the elements, although like everyone else, agree that the mapping is atrocious.

best-
Nat

p.s.
get the full set of elements not piecemeal. If you can't afford it get the wave.


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Warren Eig
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 14, 2014 at 5:37:28 pm

I agree. I have the complete Elements- all components. It's great and well built.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.babyboompictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html




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Clark Bierbaum
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 14, 2014 at 12:51:22 am

Element works great for me, a lot like the old daVinci panel because of quality knobs, buttons and, of course, balls!

Clark Bierbaum
Color Grading / Post Consultant
GarnetColor.com
Charlotte, NC


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Todd Hallam
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 14, 2014 at 3:12:50 am

Oh and a big thanks to those who did take some time to offer advice. Much appreciated.

Todd Hallam
SideshowFX
http://www.sideshowfx.com


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Joseph Owens
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 14, 2014 at 3:30:27 pm

[Todd Hallam] "advice. "

Advice is free. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

Can't comment on the MC Color or ethernet issues. I ran a set of Tangent-200s with Final Touch/Apple COLOR for a couple of years (For Sale-Cheap! if anyone wants them), prior to that a series of (small-d) daVinci proprietary panels, not the current incarnation. I own a Wave for out-of-office work, and a full set of Elements here at my studio.

You will definitely need to interface through a powered hub if you go for the USB - Elements, that is not optional.

Be mighty aware that all of these are extremely susceptible to static discharge problems, and it would not surprise me if we later find out that most of the system halts that we see are related to spike faults.
I get bouts of them in bad spells of extremely dry weather, which we experience here on the sub-arctic edge of the polar boreal forest. All I have to do is shift my cheeks on my leather chair and reach for the mouse - zap - done.

I do miss the "heavy" balls of the original daVinci control panels. There is something about physical inertia/momentum that enhances the sculptural feel of moving the image values around. After 20 years of that man/machine connection, I cannot even remotely imagine the mouse/stylus approach -- just seems chainsaw-crude. And I am not talking about numerical precision, I could not give a rat's tuckus about number matching. (Except for that one job where the animated characters had target RGB values, which was a throwback to the golden age of cartoons).

My own criteria for making a decision between the two would be to examine the most common actions employed in setting up a correction and correlating that to the first-level access offered by the panels.

Not everyone does this, but most colorists need primary RGB, lift/gamma/gain balance "on top", followed by secondary hue "trims", and then window/vignetting. Not everyone dives straight into complex compositing with separation keys, travelling mattes, overlays, and parallel node operations, so if they are a layer down, or even prioritized under window menus... maybe that's what would work for you.

So check the layout and which is going to be your better investment, if time=money, like Einstein proved.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 14, 2014 at 5:39:10 pm

I got an Avid MCColor instead of an Elements mainly because Avid and Smoke supported it and not the Elements, specially the Baselight plugin, now I hear that Baselight plugin supports Elements, if Smoke start supporting it I may switch to an Element. But while I did have many connectivity problems such as the pannel getting randomly disconnected or by switching to another app, the new Euphonix update is nearly perfect.
Also, it seemed to me coming from a Waves that the MCColor has more functions mapped to it than the Waves, but it's also harder to remember, too many modifiers.


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Todd Hallam
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 14, 2014 at 5:42:20 pm

I have read elsewhere that it is adviseable to get the whole bundle instead of just the Tk. How often do you use the Kb and Bt panels? Seems like it would be just as easy (easier?) to tweak the interface controls for that no? You still have to grab the mouse to use curves, draw freehand masks or use the offset wheel and in my mind it would be way easier to use the mouse for sizing windows.

Todd Hallam
SideshowFX
http://www.sideshowfx.com


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Sascha Haber
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 15, 2014 at 10:12:43 am

The problem is I really dislike the menu cycle/select stuff.
I would probably use em more if I had dedicated knobs for everything, but so i am parked on Gain and mostly use them to dial in predefined nodes.
The TK on the other hand I use all the time to jump between keyframes, turn nodes and tres on and off and do the play,pause,jump stuff.
Also here I would like a second panel as A and B share the most important functions.
basically, as soon as you are in the element boat you will join the "free mapping" choir :)
And if they would that, there would be zero people buying the big one.

A slice of color...

Resolve 10.1.0.021
Colorist / VFX / Aerial footage nerd
http://vimeo.com/saschahaber


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brandon thomas
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 15, 2014 at 4:48:18 pm

Constantly.

If you're trying to spend as little as possible, you should be deciding between the MC Color and the Wave.. In my opinion it's not really worth getting an incomplete set.


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Margus Voll
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 16, 2014 at 1:35:39 pm
Last Edited By Margus Voll on Feb 16, 2014 at 1:39:39 pm

I would gather some money and get elements.

Personally hate both the Wave and MC for different reasons.

--

Margus

http://iconstudios.eu
https://vimeo.com/iconstudioseu/videos

DaVinci 10, OSX 10.8.5
MacPro 5.1 2x2,93 24GB
GUI 4000 / GPU GTX 780
DL 4K
Eizo Color
Scope Box
Full Ligthspace CMS


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Joseph Owens
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 15, 2014 at 6:06:14 pm

[Todd Hallam] "How often do you use the Kb and Bt panels? "

All the time. Grabbing and playing stills, next-next-next keyframes, trimming luminance (far finer control than even the balls)... the beat goes on.

The older daVinci panels had a ballistic feature which made "Large" changes if you moved the balls fast, and really "fine" changes if you moved them slow... -After a while, the "on-the-fly" scaling becomes a muscle memory like throwing three-pointers from outside the key, and gets you inside the 20-second limit much much faster.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Todd Hallam
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 16, 2014 at 2:30:04 pm

Thanks everyone for their comments and suggestions. I have ordered an Element. Looking forward to it!

Todd Hallam
SideshowFX
http://www.sideshowfx.com


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Clark Bierbaum
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 16, 2014 at 3:32:49 pm

I highly recommend this hub, had it since getting the element series and have never had an issue:


D-Link DUB-H7 Hi-Speed USB 2.0 (480Mbps) 7-Port Hub - WIN/MAC


I'm ordering another one and a set of cables so I can have a road set of cables so I don't have to tear everything down when I go to a client location. It's also good to have a backup, things will fail at the exact wrong time!

Good luck with the new panels.

Clark Bierbaum
Color Grading / Post Consultant
GarnetColor.com
Charlotte, NC


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Margus Voll
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 16, 2014 at 3:35:21 pm

I have the same in my clients place and it works very well.

They have the old blue model.

--

Margus

http://iconstudios.eu
https://vimeo.com/iconstudioseu/videos

DaVinci 10, OSX 10.8.5
MacPro 5.1 2x2,93 24GB
GUI 4000 / GPU GTX 780
DL 4K
Eizo Color
Scope Box
Full Ligthspace CMS


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Colin Travers
Re: tangent element or mc color?
on Feb 24, 2014 at 5:33:17 pm
Last Edited By Colin Travers on Feb 24, 2014 at 6:20:07 pm

Just to follow up on the USB hub subject:

I actually have had two die in the last few weeks - mine and as well as an employer who just added the Elements to there studio and got the same exact hub from B&H. I got mine from B&H about year and half ago and this morning it just died. Macally has a 1 year warranty so basically I'm SOL :) So i highly recommended people DO NOT get the Macally TriHub 7-Port Hi-Speed USB 2.0 Hub http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551642-REG/Macally_TRIHUB7_TriHub_7_P...

A couple of weeks ago the same model hub at my employers shop just died in the middle of a supervised session but luckily the IT dept had another backup and all was well. I am now looking to upgrade today to this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/843988-REG/Targus_ACH120USZ_7_Port_US...

As USB 3 is backward compatible, it would work on my older MacPro along with the new ones or any USB3 drives that come my way. Besides being a better product than Macally or D-link (at least according to B&H :), while more pricey, the piece of mind is what matters after my recent experiences with Macally!


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