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DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.

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Robert Ruffo
DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 2:41:36 pm

Resolve still has the very worst, least sophisticated secondary color-keyer in the business. Name me one pro color grading app that has a worse one. It has not changed in what? 15 years?

I just tried pulling a skin qualifier in Mistika, on which I have almost no experience. It took me maybe 1/5th the time, and was much cleaner than I could ever hope for on DaVinci. I must say the latest build also has a window tracker that rivals Resolve's, in terms of precision and finesse (you can control how the fall-off of soft edges is shaped), exceeds it. It has amazing tools like de-sparkle that actually work and are very fast. It has curves for affecting the contrast of the alpha channel...

My clients expect many secondaries, and expect them to be fast and pretty much perfect - times have moved forward since what Resolve offers was adequate.

I think more and more, Resolve is aiming for a prosumer market (one that would care that they don;t have to buy an NLE anymore) and not really giving the high end what it needs to keep up with what is possible on other systems. Resolve has fallen behind in features that truly finessed, higher end grades would want. Its' become the king of "lots of features that are kind of goof enough but not altogether great" - a good fit for the prosumer, low-end production world.

This is not the world of my clients.

I'm glad we opted against a full DaVinci panel. Time to put that money toward Mistika.


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Rohit Gupta
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 3:32:17 pm

Hi Rob,

You already have a thread going about this:

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/277/23752

You can continue to post on that one :-)

Regards,
Rohit


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Robert Ruffo
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 9:31:41 pm

Rohit, I posted again because quite frankly I was hoping things would improve in version 10. They did not.
Instead we have tons of other features which mean little to the way we work. There is no way we are about to start editing on Resolve - and why would we when we own and know many other NLEs already.

I must say your somewhat curt response, also, does not impress me as a paying customer of several thousands of dollars of your products, both software and hardware. Last time you replied that Hollywood films used that HSL qualifier - I since found out that the films you mentioned did not - alpha channels for secondaries were assigned to a matte creator at another desk and then loaded in. Higher budget shows also get the look much closer in camera than some of my clients, and expect less from the color grade

Best way to stop someone from making a legitimate complaint is fix the problem, not tell them to shut up.

At least that's how we deal with complaints from our customers, which is in fact why we are solving their complaint of slowness and noisiness of secondaries in our grading sessions by moving over to Mistika. SGO is famous for really listening to users and mining them for good improvement ideas, not flipping them off as you just did, and it shows in the elegant interface of their product.

I'm not asking for a new raytracing engine to be added to Resolve, I'm asking for simple alpha finessing tools - things like despekcle have public-domain software routines. Blur-choke is trivial, as is splitting out the alpha channel in the split/combiner node so that one could apply blur, a curve or a third party plugin to the alpha and thus have allow us more options and tricks for fixing the HSL qualifier's inherent shortcomings.

It's amazing you have not felt this needed fixing, as I am not the only one who feels that color-qualification is a bit old-school in Resolve.


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Juan Salvo
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 4:49:00 pm

Robert,

Perhaps it would be useful and illustrative if you tried the same shot in the various different applications keyers, and showed us some examples where one key was significantly better or worse.

I did this myself not long ago, and found that while in some cases resolve or base light or luster gave me marginally better results, ultimately when using the same source the results were remarkably similar.

Hard to key shots were hard to key everywhere, and easy to key shots were easy to key.

I'd love to see what material you're finding so difficult in resolve that is simple in mistika.

http://JuanSalvo.com
http://theColourSpace.com


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Robert Ruffo
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 9:43:21 pm

We don't own Mistika yet, so I can't do that on that platform, but I can do better - I'll show you a secondary pulled with prosumer Colorista which came out way cleaner than the same shot in Davinci. Colorista is a generally a huge pain in the ass, but it pulls secondaries very easily an cleanly. Give me a few days.

Mistika secondaries are much more powerful than Colorista's and I brought my own footage (which I had worked on perviously in Resolve) to try it out with. Granted, it was not a side-by side situation, but I did remember how long it took in Resolve - it was not 30 seconds like in Mistika and it never looked pristine like that.

The Mistika alpha finessing tools are not ground breaking or anything - similar tools (not real-time, but still) have been around in After Effects, Combustion, etc. for years and years - but in a grader in real-time, assigned to a control surface, using them is a dream.

As for the price of Resolve - well Photoshop is even less, and it's extremely sophisticated and functional. Any tool can pay for itself quite quickly if you have the clients and give them good reason to come back - what I think is most important is the value of my time, and my clients' time.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 3, 2013 at 6:03:20 pm

I remember a few years ago having similar complains about Apple Color, and the response I got from most on these forums was "What do you expect from a software that's $1000!!! (or free)?

We're living in weird disruptive times...


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Gabriele Turchi
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 4:18:44 am

I think what Rohit and the guys at BMD did on V10 is quite great , we do need to be able to conform as best as possible in order to properly color correct in context ( AKA rebuild as much complex timelines as much as possible and have a bit of comfortable timeline .

But i do agree that the next version V11 should all be ALL focused on improving the color tools that are indeed getting outdate :

-keyer (the best friend of the colorist , the better it is the more value have the system)
-roto friendly tools (moka in it )


g

Davinci Resolve Control Surface
MacPro
Cubix desktop 4
2 Red Rockets
GTX580+GTX5800+GTX580
24GB RAM
Panasonic 58PF Plasma
Panasonic BT300 Plasma
Ultrascope


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sean ross
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 2:31:58 pm

I agree that the keyer needs an upgrade; but I have to say, Davinci 10 is a huge step in the right direction–totally not "prosumer". By focusing and refining on the conform, edit and delivery tabs, and bringing the speed up a notch, davinci is fast becoming the ultimate online finishing application.

–sean


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Mike Most
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 3:31:11 pm

I guess the guys who are coloring the vast bulk of "A" titles - you know, the lead DI colorists at Company 3, Modern Videofilm, Technicolor, and others - all qualify as "prosumers" in your book.

Robert, I don't know why you continue to harp on these things. Clearly you don't like the product, and that's certainly your right. But when top notch colorists with the most demanding clients in the world (and forgive me, but I doubt that your clients are more demanding than Michael Mann, Michael Bay, Ridley Scott, JJ Abrams, and countless other directors - and cameramen, too...) are happy with a grading system, it's a bit ludicrous to guise that system as "prosumer."


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andrew smith
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 4:30:06 pm

Yeah this is an insane thread and I have to say sure the keyer could be better like d-key in baselight or whatever but R10 is a huge improvement and a great step in the right direction!

I think we all have to keep in mind that the guys like CO3 also have Smoke/Flame etc. operators they work in tandem with - that seems to be forgotten a lot. ITS NOT JUST RESOLVE you are seeing on a lot of those Hollywood blockbuster films - they also work back and forth with vfx guys in house to get the best results.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 5:07:33 pm

[andrew smith] "hink we all have to keep in mind that the guys like CO3 also have Smoke/Flame etc. operators they work in tandem with - that seems to be forgotten a lot. ITS NOT JUST RESOLVE you are seeing on a lot of those Hollywood blockbuster films - they also work back and forth with vfx guys in house to get the best results."

Very true, they all have VFX department making mattes for them. Still I believe that v10 is an amazing release, although I wouldn't call the editor an NLE until they allow us to enter TC manually using a regular keyboard.
I think the OFX inclusion is an amazing step, and they did make power windows better, no more bezier hell.

But I said this before, and it's that I believe DaVinci Resolve's point of existence right now is not to provide the best coloring tools, but to accommodate and sell BM hardware, the updates in v9 and v10 were geared towards the BM camera, editing, live mode, DIT tools, which is great, but you can tell that when they include Resolve for free with their cameras, so basically they're saying that DPs can do their own color, so I guess colorist now must learn to become DPs as well?

So even though it's a great tool, part of me agrees with Robert, the fact that Resolve used to be in the heavy iron category and now it's been given away for free...well, doesn't give me much confidence it is serving the colorist to be honest, as a matter of fact the color grading haven't been updated much since they ever bought it, I think log mode is probably the only addition and I don't know if that was accessible only from it's own panel before.


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Gabriele Turchi
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 5:52:13 pm

Even if i vote for being focused on color tools for V11 , it is fare to say that since BMD bought davinci , quite many color tools has been updated

Hue curves
RGB Mixer
Log controls
Split combiner
Blending Modes
RGB , YUV , HSL

Again i hope for World Class New Keyer and Roto tools on V11 , i would have preferred if resolve would cost 50K , but is not fare to say that BMD have not improved the product immensely .

g

Davinci Resolve Control Surface
MacPro
Cubix desktop 4
2 Red Rockets
GTX580+GTX5800+GTX580
24GB RAM
Panasonic 58PF Plasma
Panasonic BT300 Plasma
Ultrascope


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Robert Ruffo
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 5, 2013 at 9:18:00 pm

Like I said - at Company 3 and so on there is another guy/girl to make the mattes, if need be, on another system entirely. Those situations are ultra-high-end. In narrow deadline mid-budget commercials the colorist does not have access to external resources like that.

That said, high-end post is slowly moving away, not toward Resolve. It is low end to mid range house who are newly adopting Resolve as a replacement for Apple Color or the tools within Premiere, etc. I have not heard of anyone dumping Mystika or Baselight to switch to Resolve. I don;t think that has happened in many years. This is a sign they are falling behind, that their only continuing advantage is price, and from feedback I hear (which BM does not seem interested in, but whatever) the secondary qualification and alpha tools are the weak point, the tracker the strong point.

I did not say Resolve was prosumer, but simply that their new feature focus had that orientation, and it did not address urgent problems.

I would much rather not have to buy a new system and spend the time learning it. There are also many things I do love about Resolve and the new features in 10. I don't want to have to say goodbye to them just because they can't fix something so basic which would not be hard to fix at all. How hard would it be to split out an alpha channel with the combiner node function? Then I could apply an OFX depspekle plugin or heavy denoising and most problems solved right there. It's almost infuriating that they don't do this.

That's why I hope that my nagging will pay off. Without customer feedback software companies are just throwing darts in the dark, although BM does not seem to appreciate them (at their eventual peril - not my problem after we switch).


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jake blackstone
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 4, 2013 at 7:50:01 pm

Anyone who knows me will attest to my frequent criticism of BMD and their Resolve implementation. I even think, I had finally succeeded in annoying BMD enough to not include me in Resolve beta program:-)
Well, I guess, this comes with the territory. Said that, no one will deny great strides BMD had done in bringing new tools under the Resolve roof. As a colorist I'm less excited about live grading or dailies origination, than the inclusion of proper noise reduction or improvements in windows and tracking operation. To be able to finish in Resolve is a godsend.
I have a remote grading partner in Prague, where they specializing in VFX work and they are exclusively an Autodesk house. I was doing some training, where I demonstrated to them the conform using XML. They were left speechless after seeing the simplicity of the process. They kept saying just how much better Resolve was at at conforming and multi-resolution work. One can really forget good things, that are just work, no fuss.
So, my issue with BMD is not the lack of new features. My main beef is with the implementation of those features. I am really fed up with the incessant click-athon, that needed to use Resolve with the third party panel, the weird and difficult to understand design choices, that are sometimes based on legacy decisions, great number of unfinished and not ready for the primetime features, that, seems, are included just for sake of having more feature, even if that feature can't actually be used.
A couple of examples of weird design decisions. In V9 there are dots for mode selections- for example 3way vs Log. Now those dots had been made much darker and it takes much more effort to select 3 Way vs LOG, because you can't really see them any longer. Another, in V9 Log mode has 4 wheels and three way has 3. So, you could just glance at it and immediately know which mode you're in. Well, now both the the 3 way has 4 trackballs(!) and Log also has 4 balls, so now it is very difficult to tell which mode you're in. I like the idea of offsets controls in 3 way, but now I hate it, because I'm always lost in different modes! The new Contrast and pivot are great, BUT, pivot sensitivity is way too low and there is an empty space on my panel right next to them. Doesn't it makes sense to position the master offsets in that empty space? It's just common sense thingy... Yes, that all may sound petty and insignificant, but things like that what separated decent software from truly great. The attention to detail is what I think separates Resolve from other truly innovative products on the market.
Honestly, it's the grading part of Resolve that's the weakest link in this otherwise very impressive grading application. Once the ease and convenience of grading issues are addressed, Resolve will be a much better application.


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kim krause
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 6, 2013 at 6:54:48 pm

i have to say i totally agree....one of the things that still bugs me about resolve for mac if you're a mouse user is the fact that the damn wheels are just too small to make fine adjustments....please no comments about get some panels then...they addressed this in the curves section with a really great idea...click on the window and they get bigger so you can actually see what you're doing! in fact i still think it would be great if you could rearrange the whole user interface as you could with all the older dAvinci products (888 for instance). resizable windows that you can move around would take this app from really good to truly great! there's way too much jumping around on the screen, especially with the higher resolution displays. you can be working on a node in the upper right hand side of the screen then have to scroll all the way down to the lower left to deselect a wheel for grading...then all the way to the right to move the keyframes around....and forget using scopes if you're on a laptop because there just isnt any space for them...it's the little things that still drive me crazy....someone should give these guys a book on ergonomics! one final gripe from me is that i don't really see the need for resolve to get more edit savvy...its a grading system! leave the editting to the editors....whats next? a 24 channel surround sound mixing plugin? stick to what you do best and make the best damn grading system ever invented! okay im done my rant for now....


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Juan Salvo
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 6, 2013 at 8:23:32 pm

The reason they did this in the curves is because it's an issue for panel users as well.

http://JuanSalvo.com
http://theColourSpace.com


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Gabriele Turchi
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 6, 2013 at 8:41:24 pm

I vote/ask for a new bigger/more advanced panel rather than keep improving the GUI for everybody's free use , on every screen , any resolution /laptop etc...

Davinci Resolve Control Surface
MacPro
Cubix desktop 4
2 Red Rockets
GTX580+GTX5800+GTX580
24GB RAM
Panasonic 58PF Plasma
Panasonic BT300 Plasma
Ultrascope


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Joakim Ziegler
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 10, 2013 at 5:45:14 pm

With all due respect, Robert, your thread title implies that you have many basic issues you want to talk about, and then it turns out it's just the same issue that you have talked about before. I get that it's important to you, but other people (including us) seem to be able to work with the keyer in Resolve without much trouble, even in high-end feature film grading.

Some software packages will always be better at some things while others are better at other things, and I would not be unhappy if Resolve's keyer was improved, but it's perfectly usable.

There's also the old saw about "prosumer features" in your thread title, which you say absolutely nothing about in the body of your post. What features are you unhappy about BMD adding? I see lots and lots of useful stuff, and not much that'd I'd call "prosumer". I've also been very happy about BMD's responsiveness to fixing some basic outstanding issues, including some that I know have been fixed because of my own bug reports/feature requests, like 12-bit TIFF support (read only for now, but I hope for write soon), grayscale DPX, etc.

--
Joakim Ziegler - Postproduction Supervisor


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Al Arnold
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 10, 2013 at 8:55:06 pm

Hey Robert,

Not sure if you are aware but SGO has recently released Mamba FX, which is basically the effects engine of Mistika with an added nodal interface as a software only package. It's priced under 300 dollars. If you enjoy pulling keys in Misitka vs Resolve you could use this software to build a custom matte to import in to resolve. Not ideal, but may be useful in tricky situations. You could also use this to get up to speed on the software (if you aren't already), so when you do end up going with Mistika you'd have a big part of the software already learned. I think the color corrector is identical to what you'd get in Misitka too. You can even download a free evaluation version to give it a try for free!

http://www.sgo.es/shop/index.php?route=common/home&tracking=523b7cd8461b2


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jake blackstone
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 10, 2013 at 9:13:24 pm

Unfortunately, it's Windows only.


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Al Arnold
Re: DaVinci 10 adds many prosumer oriented 'all in one" features, while not fixing basic issues.
on Oct 10, 2013 at 9:27:10 pm

Yep. Not too hard to run Windows software on a Mac these days thankfully. Mistika is Linux based, but Insight (like Mamba) is Windows, and fully functional for the most part which leads me to believe that the code base is now multi-platform for the most part. I would love to see a Windows version of Mistika that was fully functional, and much cheaper. A lot of Resolve users who already own Tangent Element Panels could move over quite easily as the hardware (panels/gpus) are quite similar. A problem is that Mistika uses DVS I/O boards. Unfortunately Mamba doesn't support video I/O currently.


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