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Projectors under 15k.

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John Whitcomb
Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 8, 2013 at 11:42:48 pm

I'm looking into a projector, and the JVCs seem like a great deal.

http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp?pathId=140
I'm particularly interested in the 4k e-shift DLA-X75R

Can these projectors actually project 4k images or is it just upscaling 1920x1080?
(in other words, can I feed it 4k from Resolve?)


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Juan Salvo
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 9, 2013 at 2:45:08 am

Just upscale. I think that's pretty clear from the product website. You want 4K input look at the Sony.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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John Whitcomb
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 9, 2013 at 5:42:05 am

It's clear it can up res but not that it can't play 4k. (I could have looked harder)
Which Sony are you referring to?


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 9, 2013 at 6:35:38 pm

It's just an upscaled image. Just read the "Performance" page:
http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL029155&pathId=140&page=12

Juan is probably referring to these projectors from Sony:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-projectors/cat-ultrahires/

Or maybe these (though these are intended for theater projection, not so much post-production suites):
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-projectors/cat-digitalcinema/

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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John Whitcomb
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 9, 2013 at 6:57:46 pm

Yeah, the cheapest Sony is 50k


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Juan Salvo
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 9, 2013 at 7:34:29 pm

I thought we were talking about consumer products.

I think the comparable Sony would be the http://store.sony.com/p/VPL-VW1000ES/en/p/VPLVW1000ES

But I hope you don't intend to use this for color critical work. For color critical 4K, you'd be looking at a steal for 50k. Meaning I don't think there is a 50k product that can do color critical 4K display. Projection or otherwise.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 9, 2013 at 8:43:36 pm

[Juan Salvo] "I thought we were talking about consumer products."

Funny...I thought he was asking about projectors for post-production work environments given his in parenthesis statement: [John Whitcomb] "(in other words, can I feed it 4k from Resolve?)"

Goes to show how much mis-interpretation can happen! :-) Juan you might be right because like you said, you're not going to find a color critical monitor for anywhere close to under $15K like the OP asked. You can certainly find some nice consumer based projectors for $10-$15K though. But those professional Sony ones will cost you a mortgage to get.

Maybe if the mythical RED Ray 4K projector ever makes it to market....

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Juan Salvo
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 9, 2013 at 11:11:56 pm

You're absolutely right. Although plenty of people want to be able to review footage through resolve at full res without necessarily using that image as a color critical evaluation. So all kinds of uses for stuff.

I don't think the red laser projector if it ever does come to market will be truly viable for color critical evaluation either. I think it'll be in the same park as the nice consumer projectors that are similarly priced. Laser light is inherently spikey.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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John Whitcomb
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 9, 2013 at 11:33:35 pm

I dont know, those $1500 4k 55" Seiki monitors are getting a lot of attention.
A few post houses are claiming that after ISF calibration they are good enough for color work.
I'm finding that is generally true for most high end consumer products these days. (see the reduser.net thread)

Once you get into the area where even most professionals can't tell the difference in color accuracy between 2 different displays, spending the extra $100k-200k for something that is intangible (and the client doesn't get a sh!# about) is a hard sell. I've got a cinetal and a panasonic 12 series plasma and most people would rather focus on the plasma. It's more of a real world result, and I can understand where they are coming from. (shoot, now clients are having me export videos to view on their iPads before signing off)


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Juan Salvo
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 10, 2013 at 12:26:15 am

[John Whitcomb] "I dont know, those $1500 4k 55" Seiki monitors are getting a lot of attention.
A few post houses are claiming that after ISF calibration they are good enough for color work. "

If by few (post houses) you mean one. And having seen the display, and tested it fairly thoroughly, I can confirm it's very much a gimmick. (It is exactly and nothing more than it claims to be, a bargain priced, bottom market knockoff panel that can't even do 709) Great for the price though. But ultimately a joke; Seiki, pronounced 'Sucky'.

[John Whitcomb] "Once you get into the area where even most professionals can't tell the difference in color accuracy between 2 different displays, spending the extra $100k-200k for something that is intangible (and the client doesn't get a sh!# about) is a hard sell."

You're not in this area when comparing a consumer projector to a DI projector. And you're certainly not in this area when talking about a $1500 bottom market display.

There's certainly a purpose and place for all tiers of equipment. And there's no point in paying enormous sums just for it's own sake. If you want to do 4K theatrical finishing though, you certainly need to meet a baseline of performance. The bargain products simply don't do that.


Not to go off on a rant here, but there are some in our industry who are engaged in what is essentially malpractice.

Someone using a display that can't even do 709 as a color critical device in a "DI" suite is doing his clients an enormous disservice. When their client goes to screen their "4K master" in the only true 4K enviroment currently available (a DCi Projector) and see something that is either entirely inaccurate, or inaccurate and also a minuscule fraction of what their original image was capable of, that hurts all of us who practice this craft. It reduces client confidence in all of us, if some are tricking them.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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John Whitcomb
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 10, 2013 at 5:30:07 am

When you say malpractice I'm assuming you mean the people using the seiki/any other consumer display as a main display? Yes.. that would be ridiculous, it's important to have a proper grading display (cinetal, dolby, fsi?). However, ironically, my client displays become what everyone wants to base things off of in the end anyway.

In fact, some of the biggest budget music videos right now are being done on a particular directors apple cinema display with his colorist coming to him to grade, its just the way this director likes to work, and I dont see the 100+ million views per video suffering because of what they graded on.

Ultimately, there is a major market for a "DaVinci Resolve" type game changer of projectors, affordable, professional, scalable etc. Maybe RED will finally release one?


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 11, 2013 at 5:13:03 pm

So after spending $100-200k on a projector, maybe another $500-800k on all the other 'must-have' critical gear to do a 4k DI and finish, establishment costs, wages etc, what kind of ROI period does one have in your part of the world? Is this still a viable business at these capital investment costs?

I ask because the distinction between consumer and pro gear is narrowing, DI and finishing budgets are shrinking, working with film originated images reduced to near non-existent, are we at a point where it's simply overkill spending that much $$ on gear that simply doesn't pay for itself, for clients that can't tell them apart, and who won't pay for the luxury.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 11, 2013 at 5:35:27 pm

[Neil Sadwelkar] " are we at a point where it's simply overkill spending that much $$ on gear that simply doesn't pay for itself,"

I think there is still a segment, small though it may be, who demand this level. It's certainly not the level many of us work at. However, when a summer Hollywood blockbuster goes to a finish suite then this type of quality is expected (Avengers, Start Trek, Superman, Transformers, Hunger Games, etc.).

I don't think for many environments (corporate, wedding, local TVC work) that it's a viable business model. But if you're playing in the very deep end of the pool where people are shooting film, 5K, and 6K having a 4K DI projector hooked up to a Baselight/Scratch/Resolve system with full panels attached to a high speed RAID via fibre channel is expected. Especially since the artist working in that room is likely charging a steeper per hour fee then the guy down the road color grading local car dealership commercials.

[Neil Sadwelkar] "I ask because the distinction between consumer and pro gear is narrowing,"

I agree with you on this. And while it's "narrowing" it's not completely vanished. There are areas where the professional wants a level of control and customizability that consumer level products don't match. And typically you will have to pay for that. Specifically in regards to color accurate panels there is quite a bit of difference between the TV I buy at my local big box retailer and the monitor I buy from Flanders Scientific for color grading.

The question probably becomes: in the market one works in is the added cost of getting the image 99% color accurate vs. getting the image 80% color accurate worth it?

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Juan Salvo
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 11, 2013 at 5:48:54 pm

If you're letting your client make color critical decisions on an inadequate display that differ from the decisions they would make on adequate display, then yes, you're engaged in malpractice.

That said, for 709 there are plenty of very cost effective displays that are quite adequate. Like the panny plasma you mentioned. I use a BT300 as my client displays. But when properly calibrated both client and reference display lead to the same decisions.

But the seiki display is not describing the same thing. If you're finishing 709, why look at it in 4K? There's no standard/distribution for that.

I'm not saying you have to spend 70K on a 4K projector, I'm saying you shouldn't claim to be able to do 4K finish, on a $1500 Chinese knockoff panel. I see nothing wrong with using a plasma to do an HD finish.

Just use the appropriate gear for the job, and if you don't have the gear be honest with your clients about what you can do.

[Neil Sadwelkar] "I ask because the distinction between consumer and pro gear is narrowing, DI and finishing budgets are shrinking"
A big part of the reason they are shrinking is because producers won't know any better until the project is done, are going with shops that underbid, because they don't have the right gear. They do what they can to make it look good in the room, regardless of the fact it won't look like that anywhere else because it doesn't adhere to standards.

As far as the distinction between pro and consumer gear narrowing... when it comes to displays if anything it's been widening of late. Edge lit white LED has become the norm. IPS panels are being phased out. Plasma is dying off. IGZO panels are fairly weak right now. If you look at any of the consumer 4K displays, they all leave a lot to be desired.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Joseph Mastantuono
Re: Projectors under 15k.
on Jun 20, 2013 at 12:48:27 pm

Manufacturers are also in a completely different game. They do tons of stupid tricks on their TV's to make them seem more appealing when they're side by side in a best buy. Over sharpening, adding contrast, gamma shifts, and color shifts (a slight bump in skin tones often). Lets not even get started with "auto-motion"

Getting these consumer displays to back to show close to what they should is difficult but possible.

Also, for color work, it's far more important to have a color critical 1080p/2k display than a 4k display.

As far as what Juan says about "malpractice" I tend to agree, although I've seen it more with producers trying to bring color work in house than with post houses / colorists underbidding.

I think that there's a big disconnect with the manufacturers of TV's, We're all looking for better gamuts, 10bit displays, "truer" displays, and they just bonk the consumers over the head with gimmicks. Not that 4k is a gimmick, I'd have a hard time thinking that the guts of a 1500$ 4k panel could have the correct color science in it to work.

Every panel has 2 parts, the display, and the electronic signal processing to get the signal and translate it to what the display can show (voltages to individual crystals and led's ETC...), the latter is where a lot of consumer devices fail.

Joseph Mastantuono
http://www.goodpost.net
Color Grading & Post Production Consulting


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