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The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...

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Robert Ruffo
The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 12:50:23 pm

How bad the HSL keyer is.

In prosumer Colorista, a clean key is fast and easy. In Davinci it often borders on impossible, or is just plain impossible. In fact, of all the color grading tools - and I've tried them all - the color keyer in DaVinci is by far the worst and most likely to required tons of windows and shenanigans to work, if it can be made to work at all.

Key Blur just spreads out the noise into big, moving blobs, as often does grow/shrink, who's functioning is so unpredictable it's not even documented in the manual. These rarely solve the problems they are supposed to solve, that I know.

I'd say the HSL Keyer is not in tune with modern client expectations - people expect that it will be easy to change a shirt color, brighten someone's face, etc. - Or modern workflows where absolute real-time performance is not relevant, as nobody is playing out to tape anymore, and if they are, they can just do a pre-render and play that. What clients care about now is quality - sure speed too - but more overall project completion speed, not 100% real time playback speed - and if it takes me 20 minutes to figure out how to pull a key, how is that saving time?

The other reason is that grades done in RedCine X do not carry over accurately to Resolve, as soon as the RedCine X grade uses the L/G/G pots the imported Red footage looks completely different. It looks teh same in Premiere and After Effects, so this is a Resolve shortcoming, not a Red SDK one.

The way MANY high end workflows happen is the Red footage is graded "pretty well" in RedCineX and then transcoded to DNX or ProRes for editorial. Then the XML of the edit is imported into DaVinci for fine-tuning.

Often, everybody likes certain grades done in RedCine as seen during the edit, and want to keep them or at least use them as a starting point.

Because the Davinci Red importer is lacking, it now means wasting time rendering out DPXs from Premiere, or wasting time trying to re-create the grade that was done in RedCine X.

Fix this guys, and you can have my 30K. until then, I'm looking at other platforms to give my 30K to.

And please, don't tell me which big movies used DaVinci to grade. Those big movies are not my projects (their footage maybe had less noise, needed less change, etc. than many of my client's work - not to mention they probably had a VFX department to separately prepare key mattes whenever there was a problem.) Besides - I'm sure those big movies would have loved a decent, easy to use keyer as much as we would.


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Andy Winter
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 2:57:37 pm

well, the hsl key tool needs a better blur function. it has been discussed here already and
i guess bm does know this and are working on it.


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Dan Moran
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 6:20:25 pm

I'm just going to go ahead and say everything in your post is wrong. Seriously 100% wrong in every way.

They keyer is great. If it takes you 20mins to pull a key then you just need to practice more.

No job I have ever graded has been graded in Red Cine X first. If the clients prefer the Red Cine X grade from the offline better than yours then your not doing your job as colorist very well.

--

Dan Moran
Colourist
Smoke & Mirrors: London
http://www.danmorancolor.com/blog


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Joseph Owens
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 6:52:09 pm

I began reading this thread assuming it was going to be about some operability issues with the control surface, and discover it has nothing whatsoever to do with the panels themselves...?

If an operator has an issue with the software HSL secondaries, it is going to be the same whether they're using $29,000 knobs or a $1500 Wave, or a $100 graphics tablet. Do we understand the difference between the software and the controller? I somewhat agree that it can be occasionally tricky to get the best separation performance from Resolve, but that mostly has to do with the quality of the source material, codec, noise, resolution, GOP; its a long list. At the same time, I've hit many "one-click" qualifications-- but it doesn't happen every time, perhaps I don't necessarily expect it to, but that might also come from pulling keys for nearly 40 years, including Ultimatte, SHAKE, Primatte, Keylight, and the beat goes on.

Should the matte separation in Resolve be as good or better than a dedicated compositor program? Very often its about simply feathering out a single hue... but when it comes to completely re-painting an article -- the ubiquitous flipping the hue of a shirt comes to mind -- its amazing the number of times it comes as a surprise to some that the shirt isn't just one shade (!), and maybe an operator is going to have to build something to account for its actual range. Yes, there are color substitution nodes in some composting applications -- they don't always work perfectly, either, and sometimes require a lot of intervention -- tracking, blurring, eroding, garbage matte, cleanup, repaint.... sometimes not as easily as it can be done in Resolve.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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jake blackstone
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 7:09:06 pm

Let's compare apples to apples, shall we? As Joseph correctly pointed out, the shirt's color can be a combination of number of colors. HSL keyer often may have difficulties dealing with it, because of the way it is designed. Now, let's look at competing offerings from FilmLight, Digital Vision and Autodesk, even if their product is EOL. All of their grading packages in addition to standard HSL and RGB keyers offer a third keyer, which is specifically designed to work with non contiguous colors. In Baselight it is called D-Keyer, Lustre's is called Dimond keyer and FilmMaster's is called an i-keyer. So, personally, I wholeheartedly agree, that HSL keyer in Resolve is outdated, underpowered, slow and in need of some serious update.
And as far as client preferring the offline look as a starting point, seriously? It's AN age old problem. By the time piece finished EDITING, client gets so used to the look of the offline, they often would like to stay close. What is so wrong about that argument?
The name of the thread could be misleading though. I personally would not buy a $30K panel to go with my $1K software, that does only one thing, but that is just me. Also, I hear the $5K version of the panel is coming, so....


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Dan Moran
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 7:42:16 pm

I feel guilty for being a bit short earlier on so I'd like to offer you some help keying. If you are up for it I'd happily point out a few tips and tricks I use. Mail me at dan ( at) mixinglight.com and I will do my best.

One last point from a grumpy colorist is that it is fact that people like Dave Hussey and Stefan Sonnenfeld use the same software and same keyer as the rest of us they are just dam talented at what they do. I seen this first hand when I moved to London and seen the amazing grades coming out of people like Jean-Clement Soret and my boss Mark Horrobin.

Happy Grading!

D

--

Dan Moran
Colourist
Smoke & Mirrors: London
http://www.danmorancolor.com/blog


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jake blackstone
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 8:12:49 pm

Whatever gave you an idea, that I need help grading? A bit pretentious, I'd say...


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Dan Moran
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 8:30:11 pm

Not you man! I was apologising to rob and try to offer tips on the keyer to him

--

Dan Moran
Colourist
Smoke & Mirrors: London
http://www.danmorancolor.com/blog


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jake blackstone
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:26:11 pm

Got it. I may overreacted as well:-)


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Vincent Taylor
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Sep 16, 2013 at 9:57:27 pm

Sensitive bunch us colourists. :)


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Juan Salvo
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 8:43:02 pm

Jake, I think we can all be better. People who think they can't learn from others are in denial and bound to fail eventually.

Dan, I'll happily take you up on your generous offer, whether it was directed at me or not.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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jake blackstone
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:23:58 pm

Yes Juan, we can all learn new tricks and use some help from time to time. Why do you think I'm here? But saying "your not doing your job as colorist very well" is not helping.
Actually Juan, I noticed, that you not open to any type of criticism of Resolve. Why is that? I can say it with certainty, that those satisfied with the status quo are "bound to fail eventually", as DaVinci had proved repeatedly in the past.


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Sascha Haber
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:55:09 pm

I think we all should get some cookies and chill a little..

I mean, everyone who used Primatte , Ultimatte or just the Modular Keyer in Smoke know that there is a lot of truth in this.
The key is rudimental at best...
But I actually never missed an overly precise keyer...for classic colorist purposes its totally fine...also because surfaces close to each other bounce light an color.
First priority is a bigger blur.
And playing with Sapphires in Smoke tough me there is a lot more that can be done in realtime today, even with a single Q4000.
There are a lot of things that could be better in Resolve today, yes...but
The control surface is not one of them .

A slice of color...

Resolve 9.1.1 OSX 10.8.2

Colorist / Aerial footage producer
http://vimeo.com/saschahaber


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Pepijn Klijs
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 9:58:26 pm

+1 for the bigger blur!

Editor/Colorist, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
http://www.pepijnklijs.nl


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jake blackstone
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:05:27 pm

"The control surface is not one of them" What???? You are happy with mapping on your Element?


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Juan Salvo
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:25:42 pm

[jake blackstone] "Actually Juan, I noticed, that you not open to any type of criticism of Resolve. Why is that?"

I don't know where you get this idea, which you keep bringing up. I have plenty of feedback where things can improve with regards to Resolve. Some of my feedback has even become features.

But I'm not sure why I'm defending myself to you? Do I have to be a crank about something in order for my statements to have merit?

Where I have thoughts or insights I feel are helpful, I contribute them, either directly or publicly. I'm sorry if I'm not publicly lashing one particular product to your satisfaction.

As to the question of a keyer. I have actually tested first hand the keyers in Resolve, Baselight and Luster on the same troublesome footage. While a volumetric keyer is a cool GUI innovation, in actual practice, where I tried to show real examples of situations where Resolve's key failed and another products keyer succeeded , I actually found it very difficult to come up with a clear illustration. Bottomline finding fro me from my own testing was that shots that were hard to key in Resolve were hard to key anywhere else, and shots that were easy to key elsewhere were easy to key in Resolve.

Not saying the keyer couldn't be improved. Volumetric samples are a nifty and helpful bit of visual feedback. I also found some of the matte tool features in BL to be really useful. I like the idea of being able to apply curves on a matte. Or sand a matte. But I've also found ways to accomplish similar results within the resolve toolset.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Joseph Owens
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:36:55 pm

And its not even Tuesday, TIGers.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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jake blackstone
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:22:08 pm

No need to defend yourself Juan. I'm just calling spade a spade, when all I see Juan, that any time I have a temerity to criticize any Resolve operation, inevitably I see you spring up into action, defending Resolve, no matter what. Apparently, there never was a feature on Resolve, that you didn't like. Let's just stick with the status quo, stop innovation and just celebrate mediocrity, right? Why bother? What do you expect from free software, right?
Said that, i don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time or most of the time. But how about you disagreeing with me ALL the time? How about a little balance for a change?
Where you see a feature as "nifty" I see it as helpful. When you dismiss a feature as not really helpful, I see what is necessary to increase my productivity and quality of my product. Try to use BL, FM or Luste for a week and then let's discuss it...


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 1:52:10 am

As much as I love Blackmagic and Davinci, I'm not sure they're the best match...at least for Resolve.

If you look at the development history of BM DaVinci, every change or new feature seems to be aimed at a Blackmagic Device, version 9 seems to be all to accommodate the Blackmagic Camera, I have no info on future plans for Resolve, but common sense tells me that since they bought a scanner, most likely Revival will be revived, if not integrated into Resolve.

And it all comes down to purpose, or intention, what's the intention with every software update? Again, I only talk from a logical and observation standpoint, but it's quite obvious that the intention for BM is to sell hardware, otherwise Resolve wouldn't be free or $1K, that's not the real price.

And that's a bit dangerous for colorist, we've seen what happened with Apple's array of software.

It's like the girlfriend that goes out with you either because she loves you or because you have money (I know most of us don't apply to that analogy, but you get the idea).

Is Blackmagic motivation to make a great color correction tool for the love of it, or is to to sell more hardware? If the answer is the second, I seriously doubt we'll see any improvements in DaVinci's keyer.


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Juan Salvo
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 2:53:59 am

"Is Blackmagic motivation to make a great color correction tool for the love of it, or is to to sell more hardware? If the answer is the second, I seriously doubt we'll see any improvements in DaVinci's keyer."

If their motivation was purely making a color correction tool for the love of it, they'd probably be out of business pretty quick.

I hope their motivation is giving us great tools so we'll want to buy more licenses and more of their hardware, so they'll make more money.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 3:58:59 am

I hope their motivation is to make great products to begin with instead of coerce me into buying a product I didn't want in the first place, AJA never needed to buy any software to sell their Kona's, and they were very successful at it.

As far as them making any money I couldn't care less since they couldn't care less about me as well.


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Juan Salvo
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 2:51:51 am

I have used BL for several weeks at a time over a couple of years. So all together I've got a good chunk of hours on full baselight, and a large chunk more hours on baselight editions, where i was an alpha and beta tester. I too would like to see support for EXR mattes as you've pointed out.

I don't disagree with you constantly Jake. It's not personal. Honestly half the time I respond to you, I don't even realize it's you, I'm just responding to a statement. So it's not personal.

And I'm not in favor of status quo by any means. I'm constantly trying to find new better ways to work, part of that is the software, but a bigger part is technique, approach and workflow.

Maybe it's just a difference of style, but I prefer to find ways to make things work, and ask quietly for changes where I can't make things work, or feel they would work better in a more direct way.

I do think it's a bit contradictory to ask about changes, changes, changes and then complain that there are too many updates! ;)

I think we just have a different outlook on things, but I don't think Resolve is a mediocre product. I think it's a great one. Perfect? No, not by any means. But I great one I gladly use to get things done. If that makes me a "spade", then so be it. I just don't think Resolve has committed an indefensible crime! So where I feel something merits defense, I'll gladly do it.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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jake blackstone
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 4:01:55 am

Thank you for your response Juan. I actually don't disagree with you as much as it may seem from my earlier post. Yes, it may be a bit contradictory to "to ask about changes, changes, changes and then complain that there are too many updates". What I meant, when I posted my rant is I would like real meaningful updates to the colorist toolbox. Weekly codec and stability improvement updates are not it.
As Giustavo correctly points out, BM is a hardware company. I would even propose, that BM makes absolutely NO money on Resolve. Resolve Lite and free Resolve licenses with the every BMCC camera pretty much says it loud and clear. I happen to subscribe to the idea, that all BM design decisions are made with an eye on the hardware sales. Doesn't BM's decision to not to map LOG controls on the third party panels gives you a pause? It did for me. I don't like it one bit. It is clearly a political and not a technical one. As you can probably see yourself with Baselight Editions on FCP or AVID, MC Color panel is a dream to use. All controls are bidirectional, moving a pot on a panel moves the corresponding display. Selecting PG2 for example immediately takes you to the shapes display. LOG grading-CG1 (Film grading) mapped out and works just like one should expect it to work. Exposure, contrast, saturation and all three pivots are all mapped out. CG2 takes you to video grade. and so fourth.Why can't Resolve do that?
So, once you realize, that all BM wants to do is to sell the hardware, everything immediately falls in place and all BM's Resolve decisions start making sense, unfortunately...


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Joseph Owens
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 4:42:59 pm

Jake, are you going to be in Vegas next month?

You could take all this directly to Grant Petty, who probably doesn't need to be on the floor, but is. I'm sure he would welcome your card if he hasn't already... I don't know if you have met him personally or not, but its A) possible and B) worth doing.

This is a little bit of a difference in how BlackMagic relates to their client base, as opposed to some ridiculously over-valued companies with fruit in their name, who really do treat their once-rabid supporters, who once kept them afloat (you know, where there was one set of footprints on the beach, the way the parable goes?) like dirt. BM really are post fanatics.

Not that long ago, several colleagues of mine anyway would not install a Blackmagic device in their systems if you paid them to. At the moment, however, I've got a number of their outboard boxes... SDI router, Teranex, HDLink, and so on, that have seriously made life easier, at least here in my little suite. The Decklink Extreme, in particular, seems to work better with FCP's Edit-to-Tape module than the Kona3 ever did -- at least it doesn't keep disappearing like the AJA does if the Mac 'sleeps'. Then its a system cold boot or forget it.

Porting Revival to Mac, or even Windows (more probably) and linking it with Resolve? Bring it. I'm in.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Juan Salvo
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 5:00:19 pm

[Joseph Owens] "Porting Revival to Mac, or even Windows (more probably) and linking it with Resolve? Bring it. I'm in."

Pair it with a cost effective scanner. Yes, please.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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jake blackstone
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 6:49:26 pm

Yes, I'll be at NAB. I'll visit BM booth, as I always do and no, I have no plans to chat with Grant. BM bought DaVinci lock, stock and barrel and as a private company BM can do whatever they want to do with it. So, at the time of celebration and euphoria, Grant said this:
"The days of closed-off systems are over. I've never liked them from the start, and I'm not about to do that now just because we've got DaVinci as one of our product lines. I'd like to see it opened up to all sorts of friends and enemies, you know. They're not enemies, but competitors."
And look where we now. The only third party companies, that allowed inside Resolve are the panel manufacturers. But even then, only as a second class citizens.
If that doesn't seem, just like paying a lip service, I don't know what is.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 12, 2013 at 11:54:45 pm

Yeah! I remember those days, I didn't believe him one bit though...

Check this out:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/159/856149


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Robert Wentz
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Jul 6, 2015 at 8:07:18 pm

@Joseph Owens "at least it doesn't keep disappearing like the AJA does if the Mac 'sleeps'. Then its a system cold boot or forget it."

One of the many reasons why most people disable sleep mode on any machine dedicated to production or post.


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Robert Ruffo
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 13, 2013 at 6:30:52 pm

@ Dan Moran

I'm sorry, but what are you on?

Have you ever tied the keyer in Smoke or even Colorista?

I never said they liked the RedCine grade better, or even that anyone other than me did that grade as part of the service. You can't quickly create sound-synched dailies in DaVinci with dual-system sound - you have to use RedCine for that - so on many projects someone is using RedCine first. Its' not a matter of what they like better, it's a matter of having something they already like as an easy starting point, on the deadlines we often see in the real world of paid production saving time is very important.

20 minutes was facetious.

Your post is supremely arrogant, and clueless.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 13, 2013 at 7:56:40 pm

I'm not sure, but I think as long as the grading in Red Cine X is just primaries, you can export a CDL that Resolve can read, as pretty much any grading software now.

I would give that workflow a try.


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Joseph Mastantuono
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 23, 2013 at 2:20:06 pm

Sure the Keyer sometimes has a hard time with dslr/xdcam/etc footage, and we all want better blur & shrink/grow tools, but this is ridiculous.

I really love using daVinci, and its great and fast at synching and timing dual system sound dailies. I find it faster turnaround than using redcinex.

Sure it's a matter of personal presence and comfort, but resolve is my favorite colorist software out there right now. And a big part of that is the node based workflow.

Joseph Mastantuono
http://www.goodpost.net
Color Grading & Post Production Consulting


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Kacey Baker
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Apr 8, 2013 at 4:58:47 pm

Transformers. Sucker Punch. Pirates. Star Trek. Lone Ranger. Oz. Man Of Steel.

Clearly I'm going with Stefan Sonnenfeld's career over your opinion.


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Paul Jay
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 13, 2013 at 8:31:53 am

You dont need any control surface to use Davinci.
What are you talking about.
You are comparing using davinci resolve software with buying the control surface.


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Robert Ruffo
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 13, 2013 at 6:47:46 pm

Paul, I have a Wave now, but that's not the point, at all. I was trying to get BM's attention by pointing out a fact - they literally lost 30K of my money because they seem to refuse to fix a serious shortcoming.

People like me are potential premium customers to people like BM - I have a lot to spend on gear.

Last time I mentioned this, I was told that big Hollywood movies use DaVinci, and so therefore it must mean it has no room for improvement - which I find to be a suspect argument at best, and certainly didn;t make me feel like I should give them any more or my money. The result? Baselight will probably get that same money, and they can continue to be smug all they like.

I'm sure I'm not alone - so how much is not fixing this issue costing them? I hope they think about it.


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Liam Ward
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Mar 21, 2013 at 3:55:26 pm

I thought / was hoping it was going to be the fairly obvious answer of it's $30,000!!! as well. But on the keying notion, I would say it could be better, but what it lacks in HSL keying it makes up for in incredibly stable and fast tracking. It's true I may not be able to always pull an isolated key on a shirt, but I can quickly slap a mask on and track it in seconds if needed which usually gets me by.

Liam Ward
Sinking Ship Entertainment


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Marc Wielage
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Jul 8, 2015 at 1:02:16 am

Wow, here's a 2-year-old thread back from the dead.

I think the HSL keyer in Resolve could be improved, but it's actually been pretty good since v11 (released after this discussion started). The daVinci panels have uses above and beyond just the keyer -- I can typically work at least 20% faster on their panels than anything else.

I'm sure that performance will improved even more with v12.


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Michael Gissing
Re: The reason we are NOT buying a full DaVinci control surface is...
on Jul 8, 2015 at 1:44:33 am

The preview videos I have seen of vers 12, there seems to be a big improvement in keying including green/blue keying. HSL also looks much cleaner and easier to pull a key just by drawing a simple line over the tones you want to gather. You can draw a few lines to broaden the key. It sure looked good on the demo.


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