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Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI

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William Edwards
Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 1:25:59 pm

Hello,

So I read through past forums on setting the legal levels on the render in Resolve. I wanted to check that with the new version if people were still using a LUT to be sure it stayed in 64-940? Or do you now set Normally Scaled Legal Video in the config and the render output, which will do the same thing?

Part 2 of my question is that I'm using an FSI monitor with the scopes built in. Anyone have experience with the quality of their scopes?

Thanks!


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Sascha Haber
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 4:24:45 pm

This option on render does the opposite you would think .
It scales the video form 64-940 to 0-1024 on output .
If you want it to stay legal, you need to render data level .
Makes sense ?
Yeah, to me too ...
To check if you are safe, use a Lut with a nice soft knee or look at your scopes AFTER rendering.
So bring it back in and check .
All of this of course works for DPX only, if you render to MXF and stuff you also need to make sure tout clip attributes are set correctly..

A slice of color...

Resolve 9.01 OSX 10.8.2

Colorist / Aerial footage nerd
http://vimeo.com/saschahaber


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stig olsen
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 5:45:27 pm

William, what is your finishing tool?


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William Edwards
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 7:44:15 pm

They are outputting with FCP. Rendering out ProRes clips. I used the 'Normally Scaled Legal Video'. When they bring in the ProRes files I rendered, there is a luma warning on the clip in Final Cut.

I spoke to someone at Resolve, and they told me that Normally Scaled will output renders in scaled video. So Final Cut is telling me it isn't. I wish I had an outboard monitor; one cost at a time though, ya know?


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stig olsen
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 7:54:19 pm

If you finish in a NLE you can monitor normal range in Davinci, but output full range. When you import the files into your NLE you choose RGB when importing the clips and it will automatically remap the full range signal to normal range. No need for a LUT.

Since the NLE is working internally with levels between 16-235 you need to export with RGB checked to see what you see on your computer screen in Davinci.

If you finish in Smoke or Flame you can still monitor normal range, and export full Range in Davinci. Smoke and Flame also work full range internally and you can the same way set the output monitoring to normal range.

Stig


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William Edwards
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 9:44:16 pm

hmm...because Avid you'd want to import with 709, not RGB. I'm not the person doing the Final Cut conform, and I didn't know you could do RGB import.


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stig olsen
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 9:51:58 pm

What you need to understand about Avid import is this:

- If you check RGB when importing, you tell Avid that you are importing a RGB file. It then remap the RGB file to 709 (16-235) that is what Avid prefers.
Some think that it works the opposite way - that Avid will import the file and remap to or keep it RGB, but that is wrong.


- If you check 709/601 you tell Avid that the file is 709 and it will NOT remap. It will eat it as it is (if it is 709)

Stig


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stig olsen
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 10:17:17 pm

.. so that basically means for you that you can monitor normal range in Davinci, render full range and import the file as RGB in Avid. Avid will then remap the full range file to normal range and your monitor will display exactly the same both in Davinci and Avid.


Stig


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William Edwards
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 11:11:42 pm

Thanks for clearing this up with Avid. I never saw this kind of import option for Final Cut; is there one? (I'm talking FCP 7, it's what people are using for this project) (Is there something new in the newer FCP versions?)


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William Edwards
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 7:45:24 pm

So for ProRes, should I use the Soft Lut 64-940 with 'Data Level' or 'Full Scale'?

(Now I don't even know why Normally Scaled is even an option.)


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Robbie Carman
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 11:11:41 pm

Alexis did a great job explaining this in the new revision of the manual so be sure to check it out (pages 167 to 169).

So from your original post it seems like you're working with REC 709 Y'CbCr footage and not 4444 RGB? So ProRes HQ or something similar?

If so I've done nearly 160 hours of shows this year with the workflow I'm about to describe using ProRes HQ source files > grade and resolve and render > back to FCP for audio/graphic remarry and for output and layback. And everything has been fine.

There are two separate issues going on. First in your config (for both monitoring and deck) there are two options - video levels and data levels. WIth these options the important thing to remember is that it should be set to what your monitor or deck is accepting. So if your working with an FSI monitoring REC 709 you should leave this set to Video Levels.

While the internal scopes are always going to show full range in Resolve if you pop open your scopes on your FSI or an external set of scopes in the SDI path you'll notice that the original footage that you perhaps looked at in FCP and saw a ton of under/overshoots are now clipped. However because of the internal processing of Resolve that data should be recoverable while grading.

On render in the delivery page simply choose Auto or Normally Scaled in the levels pull down and render the show. Send the XML over to FCP and things should be fine.

Easy way to test this create a white field over 100% in FCP or a gradient. Something you know is illegal and has over shoots/under shoots. Bring it in and render with the workflow I described and things should be ok. Again for broadcast ProRes stuff this is my workflow day in and day out.

A couple things to note:

1. Even with Video Levels and Normally scaled render its still entirely possible to get RGB Gamut errors (really only way to measure this is on a scope like the TEK diamond or the Harris Eye) but you can "sorta" see it on an RGB parade if you have overshoots/undershoots. To be honest you have to push it to have this problem but its still the reason that we run thru a Harris DL 860 for tapeless or tape outputs really mainly to ensure RGB legality. Resolve with the workflow I've discribed seems to do just a fine job at protecting Luma and Chroma and to a certain degree composite levels (although another reason to have the legalizer).

2. The Luma warning in FCP - was in the yellow warning sign or the green one? I can't remember the exact levels off the top of my head but if its the green one thats normal just shows you there are levels between (I think) 90-100%

3. Finally, when it comes to RGB 444 data thats another can of worms entirely. The workflow does become slightly more complicated simple because there are times when you want to monitor for example 709 and Video levels but layback Full Range. Please read Alexis excellent write up on some of the scenarios in the manual.

Robbie Carman
----------------
Colorist and Author
Check out my new Books:
Video Made on a Mac
Apple Pro Training Series DVDSP
From Still To Motion
An Editors Guide To Adobe Premiere Pro

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Robbie Carman
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 11:13:29 pm

oh and I should mention I made it sound like your FSI can only monitor 422 footage or something - you can monitor RGB 444 Full range over 3G SDI quite easily.

Robbie Carman
----------------
Colorist and Author
Check out my new Books:
Video Made on a Mac
Apple Pro Training Series DVDSP
From Still To Motion
An Editors Guide To Adobe Premiere Pro

Twitter
Blog


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stig olsen
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 11:28:58 pm

"by William Edwards: Thanks for clearing this up with Avid. I never saw this kind of import option for Final Cut; is there one?"

William, I dont know about FCP but I will be surprised if you dont have the possibility to remap from full range to normal range on import, the same way in FCP as well.
The workflow Robbie is describing also works with Avid, but I recommend render full range and remap to 709 on import in any NLE.
The reason is that you can use the same full range file simultaneously in softwares as After Effects, Flame, Smoke etc as well.
If you render normal range from Davinci you limit yourself to only work with this file in a software that expects normal range.

But yes, if your only and final destination is FCP then render normal range.

Stig


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William Edwards
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 11:19:45 pm

Thank you for this reply Robbie. (and everyone else, much appreciated)

The warning I was told was Yellow. I monitored as you described, and output at Normally scaled legal video. I can't say for sure how they imported into FCP. I understand the need to put it through a legalizer. I think there are offshoots, as you described. Alot of the footage is bright and contrasty. Because I can't put this through a legalizer, should I go with the option of putting a soft clip LUT on the output?

PS It's my understanding that there are always going to be little bits of data that are offshoots from doing color if the picture is bright and contrasty, is this true?


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Robbie Carman
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 11:28:18 pm

yeah for sure - unless your a robot or a very conservative grader it can be hard or impossible to catch those 2 pixels :) However some additional things to keep in mind.

1. I wouldn't trust the Luma warning in FCP at all. Just saying. Dedicated scopes in the SDI path really only way to tell for sure. And you also need to know your specs! DCI, GEO, SCRIPTS, PBS etc all have their own standards many will allow some over/undershoots for a specified period of time to a certain level. 102% for 2or3ms for example. RGB vs LUMA gamut also sometimes different. Really need to master those.

2. You don't need a LUT and with absence of accurate scopes its going to be darn near impossible to tell whats going on with your transform.

3. You might try the old nest with a broadcast safe filter on the nest set to extremely conservative in FCP or use the excellent Eye Height software legalizer for FCP

Keep in mind Stig and Sasha are right on with RGB full scale workflows I was just trying to give you some perspective on a prores broadcast with FCP workflow. Your milage may vary! :)

Robbie Carman
----------------
Colorist and Author
Check out my new Books:
Video Made on a Mac
Apple Pro Training Series DVDSP
From Still To Motion
An Editors Guide To Adobe Premiere Pro

Twitter
Blog


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William Edwards
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 10, 2012 at 11:49:48 pm

Yes, thank you. In the end, there is no easy answer; or maybe it is just that easy!

Not sure what I should do now in my particular situation, but I'll figure it out.

That harris machine, you just 'feed' the video through it?

Thanks again all for your time. I may have more questions tomorrow, but this is enough to go on right now.

Except Stig said there was a way to import footage into NLE as RGB, but can you do that in Final Cut?


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stig olsen
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 11, 2012 at 12:00:07 am

To clarify, I said that Avid will remap a full range file to video levels by checking RGB when importing.
Im not sure if this works in FCP, but it will surprise me its not possible.

Those times Avid is the final destination and there is no need for going to another softwares for finishing, I do exact the same as Robbie is describing, except that I render MXF instead of Prores (because its Avid and not FCP).

So, if FCP is the only and last destination - do what Robbie says and you will be fine.

Stig


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William Edwards
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 11, 2012 at 12:33:01 am

Thank you Stig.


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Robbie Carman
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 11, 2012 at 1:58:26 pm

[William Edwards] "That harris machine, you just 'feed' the video through it?"

Yes - its SD/HD SDI in out - actually you can have 3 outputs for feeding multiple places. Harris along with EyeHeight probably the most used legalizers in the world. Basically you set legalization parameters to meet your specs the box does its magic.

The thing though since its a baseband video device it works great in a tape based solution (which we often are) but can work in a tapeless solution as well. We simply route Resolve/FCP thru the legalizer (sometimes also thru a standards converter) to a hard disc recorder like the hyper deck. That way we can record truly legal prores, dnxhd or uncompressed in real time with out having to render usually highly inaccurate broadcast safe filters.

Robbie Carman
----------------
Colorist and Author
Check out my new Books:
Video Made on a Mac
Apple Pro Training Series DVDSP
From Still To Motion
An Editors Guide To Adobe Premiere Pro

Twitter
Blog


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Paul Provost
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 11, 2012 at 3:45:20 pm

Hi Robbie
Can't find any pricing info on eyeheight. Any idea how much their hd fcp plugin is or their hd desktop model is?

http://www.4Kfinish.com | owner-colorist | Hollywood, CA
http://www.facebook.com/4kFinish


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Robbie Carman
Re: Legal Levels with a Scope and FSI
on Nov 11, 2012 at 7:29:19 pm

Paul -

The Hardware Legalizers are priced depending on options similar to the Harris DL 860 so 5-7k. I think the software plugin is like $399 but not sure exactly. It works well in FCP but it takes a LOOOOOONG time to render.

Robbie Carman
----------------
Colorist and Author
Check out my new Books:
Video Made on a Mac
Apple Pro Training Series DVDSP
From Still To Motion
An Editors Guide To Adobe Premiere Pro

Twitter
Blog


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