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4K Grading & Monitoring

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Daniel Dávila
4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 12, 2012 at 6:26:30 pm

It looks like we are closing the circle for "affordable" 4K finishing:

4K adquisition - starting by RED, adding more options
4K playback - r3d with REDROCKET / good enough RAID for other formats
4K grading - Resolve with PCI expansion and a number of GPUs
4K monitoring - Decklink 4K (4xSDI)
4K projection - incoming RED LASER projector (4xSDI)
4K finishing - new finishing tools in Resolve (less need to finish in other software)
4K deliveries - DCP
4K screening - growing up fast!

Now, what would be the difficulties in the Resolve configuration to have this dream working? I mean, could be possible on OSX / Windows systems?
note: at this point 2D 4K is good enough for me, but 3D is also a thing to consider.

Greetings

Daniel Dávila
Kiné-Imágenes
http://www.k-i.cl


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Gabriele Turchi
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 12, 2012 at 7:15:27 pm

The decklink 4K is not shipping yet ...

I am not quite sure why , but is literally 1 year that they are keep delaying every 3 months ...

Resolve should be Ok with 3 GTX 580 (3GB Ram) , but i goes start until the Decklink 4 is out , real test cannot be done ...

g

Davinci Resolve Control Surface
MacPro
Cubix desktop 4
2 Red Rockets
GTX470+GTX470+GTX470
24GB RAM
HP Dreamcolor
Panasonic 58PF Plasma
Ultrascope


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Kevin Cannon
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 12, 2012 at 7:34:39 pm

Agreed, but:

- The Decklink 4K still needs to actually ship... Since it's been pushed back quarter after quarter I wonder if there is some kind of problem?

- For 4K projection, the options are more like Barco, Christie (NEC?). There wasn't a single working 4K prototype of the Red Laser projector as of NAB and I think it's more likely to fall into the home cinema market than to be useful for color grading... I didn't see any claims about being DCI compliant and Red hasn't been forthcoming on the underlying technology and how consistent it might be.

I'm not sure about the math here, perhaps one of our GPU experts can chime in, but it seems like 4K RGB images going out and back in from 3 GPUs will approach some limitation on the PCI bandwidth on some stations (like the current Mac Pro)... I imagine that as new systems become PCI 3.0 that we'll see an improvement here. The Blackmagic system config guide for windows has one system that is certified for 4K, and I think the main difference is that each GPU (they recommend the 580) can have a dedicated 16x slot...

But I think the Decklink 4K is the only necessary component that you can't currently buy.

KC

Prehistoric Digital


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Mike Most
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 12, 2012 at 8:29:20 pm

Solid real time performance at resolutions as high as 4K and above require more than one processing box can likely provide. It is this fact that is one of the primary, if not THE primary reason, for the continued existence and support of the Linux version of Resolve. At this point in time, and for the foreseeable future, I would say that for true 4K work - and by that I mean any format, not just compressed Red files - the Linux platform is the logical choice. You can hack together something on Mac and Windows systems, but it will be limited by the single box requirement and can never really match the performance of a multi-chassis-Infiniband-connected Linux system. That's just technical fact.


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Juan Salvo
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 12, 2012 at 9:01:35 pm

I think Resolve v9 will surprise you in terms of performance on Mac & Windows.

Online Editor | Colorist | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Daniel Dávila
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 12, 2012 at 11:40:26 pm

Do you think today's PCIe can't deliver playback for 4K RGB?


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Kevin Cannon
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 12, 2012 at 11:38:39 pm

Single-box win/mac solutions may never catch up to multi-box linux set-ups but I expect it won't be long before single-box setups run 4K effectively and Linux will start to only distinguish itself only in 4K 3D, 48/60 FPS 4K features, and some specialty higher-than-4K DI situations. Which is probably reason enough for it to live on...

I think there will be a small explosion of new hardware configs being tested in the next couple months, with new processors, GPUs, and PCI 3.0 motherboards... I'm hoping that BM is testing these and gives us some good config updates as v9.0 comes around.

KC

Prehistoric Digital


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Sascha Haber
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 13, 2012 at 6:35:16 am

A decent SAN or NAS will deliver 1500 mb/s and will empower us with 4K playback speed.
I also trust in RED to deliver a proper projector that is much more hassle free than the Barco / Christie stuff.
And I have high hopes for Aja and other players to step up their game to 4K.
Looking forward to IBC already :)

A slice of color...

DaVinci 8.2.1 OSX 10.7.2
MacPro 5.1 2x2,4 24GB
RAID0 8TB
GTX 470 / Quadro 4000
Extreme 3D+

ICA Instructor
http://www.icolorist.com/Sascha.html


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Eric Fiegehen
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 31, 2012 at 4:25:14 pm

FYI - We've yet to see anyone saturate a PCIe Gen2 x16 Xpander box Kevin. I'm sure the day will come sooner or later, but not just yet.

My guess, and BMD would be the ones to make the definitive call on this subject, is that the number of NVIDIA CUDA cores and VRAM capacity would have more of an impact on 4K performance than the PCIe Gen2 x16 bus bandwidth (which = 80Gbps theoretically, a little bit less when figuring in system overhead and other related factors).

Eric Fiegehen
Cubix


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Joakim Ziegler
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 13, 2012 at 6:31:11 pm

The Red Laser projector is natively larger gamut than P3/DCI, and will be DCI compliant, according to Red. They have said they're using lasers, and said that lasers are inherently very consistent (which is 100% correct, since they're single-frequency light sources).

With a max screen width of 15 feet for the smallest model, it's definitely a professional product, and should be quite suitable for small to medium sized grading suites.

--
Joakim Ziegler - Postproduction Supervisor


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Dimitrios Papagiannis
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 13, 2012 at 8:56:04 pm

We are running two Quadro 6000's and a 4000 and getting realtime 4K from Resolve.


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Juan Salvo
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 13, 2012 at 11:36:14 pm

How are you monitoring that in 4k?

Online Editor | Colorist | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Dimitrios Papagiannis
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 2:57:27 am

Hi Juan,

We are using a 2K Barco and or a Dolby so we can set it to 4K, but we only see 2K worth of the image if that makes any sense. We are using a cubix and a cyclone as well.


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Juan Salvo
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 5:17:37 am

I meant how are you feeding the 4k signal out of Resolve, but it sounds like you're feeding 2k. I don't know if I'd call that real time 4k, but it does show the potential is there. Once the hardware (i.e. interface cards) catch up.

Online Editor | Colorist | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Ola Haldor Voll
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 5:34:44 am

And you're on Mac OS with an Apple Mac or Hackintosh? Windows?


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Dimitrios Papagiannis
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 9:03:25 am

Correct it is really 2K 444...We are feeding projector with a DeckLink HD Extreme 3D, but it is playing back in real time with full frame F65 MXF footage. (sorry should have been more clear)


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Sascha Haber
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 11:05:29 am

So what ?
The question right now is how to feed REAL 4K into it.
So far I only saw Scratch doing that with a PLEX.

A slice of color...

DaVinci 8.2.1 OSX 10.7.2
MacPro 5.1 2x2,4 24GB
RAID0 8TB
GTX 470 / Quadro 4000
Extreme 3D+

ICA Instructor
http://www.icolorist.com/Sascha.html


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Dimitrios Papagiannis
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 4:54:38 pm

Sascha I was was just making people aware that we are doing what Daniel originally proposed up to the point in the pipe line where it is feasible. Might I ask what is your point of feeding a 4K signal vs. a 2K 4444 into a 2K projector or do you already have a 4K projector?

Odor we are on a Factory MAC with a Cubix feeding a Cyclone.


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Sascha Haber
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 6:59:24 pm

I have access to one that has a 4K projector, yes.
Also one of our local cinemas does now.
I feel the player in town who can provide a full 4K pipeline first can snatch some candy.

A slice of color...

DaVinci 8.2.1 OSX 10.7.2
MacPro 5.1 2x2,4 24GB
RAID0 8TB
GTX 470 / Quadro 4000
Extreme 3D+

ICA Instructor
http://www.icolorist.com/Sascha.html


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Joakim Ziegler
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 7:54:09 pm

On the other hand, monitoring in 4k is kind of useless. I mean, it looks good and everything, but how important is it for making critical color decisions? Lots of other factors, like color gamut and consistency, calibration, etc., are much more important.

Of course, being able to generate 4k deliverables is very nice, but that doesn't mean you have to monitor in 4k while you grade.

--
Joakim Ziegler - Postproduction Supervisor


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Eric Santiago
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 8:20:32 pm

True Joakim. Plus the fact that most of us still only output to HD. In a few years my dept. has to be able to push to real 4K projectors so hoping things change for the better then.


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Sascha Haber
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 10:07:22 pm

Because I also work on VFX heavy productions, and those guys who worked hard on making every pixel awesome would really be disappointed if they can only see 25% of it :)
On the camera side, i agree.
I haven't seen much worth shooting in 4K so far.

A slice of color...

DaVinci 8.2.1 OSX 10.7.2
MacPro 5.1 2x2,4 24GB
RAID0 8TB
GTX 470 / Quadro 4000
Extreme 3D+

ICA Instructor
http://www.icolorist.com/Sascha.html


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Joakim Ziegler
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 11:04:08 pm

Actually, I'm kind of the other way around, capturing in as much resolution as you can makes sense, and sending it to VFX in 4k makes sense too (those extra pixels help in tracking, matching, and all sorts of stuff), but seeing color is not resolution-bound.

For me personally, we also do film out and DCP only in 2k at the moment, but that might change soon (well, it may change for DCP, film out is dying).

--
Joakim Ziegler - Postproduction Supervisor


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Ola Haldor Voll
Re: 4K Grading & Monitoring
on May 14, 2012 at 11:17:03 pm

The few times I've had to deliver 4K was because the client insisted "it's so freakin' cool to have a 4K master!"


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