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709 scale RGB for web

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stig olsen
709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 9:53:32 am

Hi,

Maybe a bit out of topic, but I guess this affect us all in some way.

I mainly keep the material 709 all the way through Avid, compositing software and grading before delivery for both TV and web.

For final delivery the clients want the film delivered in mpeg4 and there will be a need for a "709 to RGB" scaling to avoid the flat and dull look.

For those who are not using smoke or flame for final output. What is the best way? Sorenson Squeeze do not provide a 709 to RGB "button", only some filters that work asdifferent as the material.

How do you deal with this?

Stig


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Gabriele Turchi
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 2:37:53 pm

why would ever need RGB full range for the Web ?

the all web is YUV legal Range codecs

g

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stig olsen
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 2:58:57 pm

Hi Gabriele,

For final delivery you want the final film to look "exactly" as it does on your grade one monitor. That is your best referance.

When you look at your 709/ normal range film on a TV/monitor, the "grey/64" is what the eyes reads as pure black.

The simple answer is to simply remap the signal to full RGB when output for web. I just had some problems with my encoding.

From the Avid-forum:

1.)

I export the QT reference out as RGB so it scales at that point, then make all my deliverables from there.

2.)

I deal with this in the export settings.
When exporting H2.64 etc for the web i choose RGB.
I also choose RGB option for QT ref when I "send to" Compressor.

3.) It is a remap; should bump up the contrast, putting your blacks at 0 and whites at 255.

4.)

If you have colorcorrected such that your pictures are 709, the remap will not lose you any details in the blacks or whites.


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Gabriele Turchi
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 3:15:57 pm

Well... I guess i kind knew that i want my deliery match my seasion ...

but I disagree On that method

I stay YUV SMPTE level for web delivery , and my H264 QT on my Mac monitor match (very very closely )
my rec 709 monitor from the resolve session

g

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stig olsen
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 3:25:15 pm

I have worked at different high end post production houses and I have never seen any export 709 for web.
You will never experience 709 as pure black on a computer screen. It will look dull and flat. If the YUV SMPTE signal on your computer look like pure black, I think you need some calibrating.

YUV SMPTE / 709 is supposed to look flat / grey in the highlights / not superblack on a computer screen. This signal will look different / more crispy and more like real black on a grade one monitor.


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Gabriele Turchi
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 3:45:00 pm

Whatever ...
But Looks to me here that you are the one asking how exporting for web ...

I give you one advice : I would not make those statements for things you don't know (and you clearly don't (because you don't even know that QT player read RGB level as If they are SMTPE on a computer monitor (crush)...as well as the fact that sRGB have the same primaries of Rec709 , as well as the fact that video conversion issues are  all about how the encoder read and interpret (properly or not ) the source (aka results can be achieved with different sources of codes and color spaces if then converted properly )

g

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stig olsen
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 4:27:43 pm

Gabriele, you reminds me of that little tiny animal that drift into irritation and anger and shakes until it suddenly pops. Cant remember the name.

The question above was not about how to export for web. I was asking for what applications that has the 709-RGB buttons for remapping, as Im only used to smoke and flame for finishing.

For your information, the QT player does not read RGB level as If they are SMTPE. They scale the information to fit.

You can keep going with your 709 delivery, why should I care.

Stig


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John Michaels
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 6:17:57 pm

Coming out from Avid, I output to Quicktime as RGB which scales to full range, then convert to h264, webm, etc from there to produce output very similar to my reference monitor.

It is true that many of the codecs are YUV, but they seem to expect full-range input and do whatever scaling internally during compression. I could be wrong (I do find it confusing), but that is what I seem to see from the console when using ffmpeg.


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Gabriele Turchi
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 6:38:14 pm

It's all about what the software (used for the conversion )expect / or what is capable of / or the way is set up ...

There is no 1 way to do it , it's about understanding how it works and about knowing what the software used is capable of .

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stig olsen
Re: 709 scale RGB for web
on Apr 19, 2012 at 7:03:45 pm

Thank you John.

I called a technician working for Sorenson Squeeze today, that told me exactly what you just said.


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