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Reference movie issue

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John Heagy
Reference movie issue
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:54:19 pm

I noticed that Resolve will not "see" the contents of references movies with more than one referenced file. I'm seeing this with our in house app, CatDV and QT Pro created ref movies. Can anyone confirm this with QT Pro? Just copy and paste two movies into a new document and save as reference.

Thanks
John Heagy


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Juan Salvo
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 10, 2012 at 4:37:43 pm

Ive never expected resolve to work with reference movies... Am surprised it works at all. Wondering are all the parts of your ref movie in media pools available to resolve?



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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 10, 2012 at 6:58:40 pm

Ref movies are very important in our workflow. I allows us to move huge files virtually across our Xsan. We create files in one place and publish them out as ref movies keeping the originals safe and sound.

The files that do and don't work in Resolve all open in other QT apps, so access to the referenced files is fine. The difference is that Resolve can't "see" ref movies with multiple referenced files. They don't load as offline but with black video in Resolve.

Thanks
John Heagy


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Eric Johnson
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 10, 2012 at 10:45:49 pm

[John Heagy] "We create files in one place and publish them out as ref movies keeping the originals safe and sound"

I know this is not the answer you're looking for, but If I understand the above sentence correctly, can't you just give your DaVinci access to the location where your originals are?

And if not that specifically, why not give the station Read access to that volume so the files can be transferred locally to the DaVinci?

I understand that you have a system in place, but wanting the software to do something that it doesn't want to do isn't going to get your files color corrected....


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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 3:15:59 pm

[John Heagy] "We create files in one place and publish them out as ref movies keeping the originals safe and sound"
"


[Eric Johnson] "I know this is not the answer you're looking for, but If I understand the above sentence correctly, can't you just give your DaVinci access to the location where your originals are?
"


That's one example of how we use ref movies. We also create original files as ref movies.

Everybody seems to think DaVinci excluded ref movies. Maybe, but until I here otherwise I see it as an unintended limitation that just needs to be fixed.

P2 files are referenced files and I assume they load in DaVinci.

John Heagy


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Juan Salvo
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 3:20:08 pm

P2 files... aren't files but databases in a file folder structure. And they aren't actually supported in Resolve. Resolve supports a specific list of media formats and containers.

http://blackmagic-design.com/media/2588311/davinci_resolve_8.2_supported_co...

You'll notice reference movies aren't on that list.



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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 3:55:12 pm

[Juan Salvo] "P2 files... aren't files but databases in a file folder structure. And they aren't actually supported in Resolve. Resolve supports a specific list of media formats and containers."

If you want to call xml files a database.. ok. I could say the same for QT ref. Semantics really.

[Juan Salvo] "http://blackmagic-design.com/media/2588311/davinci_resolve_8.2_supported_co...

You'll notice reference movies aren't on that list."


That's a list of codecs not file formats, thou .mov is listed many times under file ext. Like I said before, if an app supports .mov it normally supports referenced .mov. I've never seen it specifically excluded.

I'm surprised it doesn't support P2. There are many formats that are essentially referenced formats that break video and audio into separate files, mxf included. This may be why Resolve doesn't pass audio as it ignores the elemental audio files. That will be a problem if DaVinci decides to grant the much requested ability to pass audio in renders. Count me in wanting that BTW.

John Heagy


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Joseph Owens
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 2:46:22 pm

[John Heagy] "The difference is that Resolve can't "see" ref movies with multiple referenced files. They don't load as offline but with black video in Resolve."

This is Resolve's gentle way of notifying the user that what they're doing is invalid. It should be interpreted as "yes, we know there is something out there, but what it is is not useable in this application, so here is a placeholder".

A reference movie can and should contain everything that can be added to a Final Cut timeline -- media, generators, transitions, filters, and a very long list of other things that are absolutely not going to fly in Resolve. It is very much like attempting to imbed a nested sequence, which will cause Resolve to reject the project, not even a nice black placeholder.

Absolutely, Quicktime has to support all of this. Resolve supports some of Quicktime's components, but it is not itself Quicktime, in that it also needs to interpret a lot of other media descriptors that are distinctly *not* QT.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 3:28:26 pm

[Joseph Owens] "A reference movie can and should contain everything that can be added to a Final Cut timeline -- media, generators, transitions, filters, and a very long list of other things that are absolutely not going to fly in Resolve."

Yes but filters, generators, etc all need to be rendered as QT files so not matter how complex the FCP timeline, it all ends up being a list of QT files wrapped up by a single ref file.

I can export a 2hr timeline as a QT ref file in seconds . It would take 1/2hr to flatten out the same to a self contained file. Not to mention the extra space required.

QT ref is a uniquely powerful feature of QT. Many are afraid to use it but it can turn processes that take hours into seconds. Take syncing picture to .wav. I can create hundreds of synced QT ref files representing many hours in less than a minute. The same process creating self contain QT would take many hours.


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Juan Salvo
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 3:30:37 pm

Just use XML out of FCP. Resolve supports these.



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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 4:05:38 pm

[Juan Salvo] "Just use XML out of FCP. Resolve supports these."

Yes that's a great feature. But lets say I'm using the Calibrated or MXF4Mac QT components in order to use P2 or Sony .mxf media directly in FCP. That would not pass to Resolve in an xml because they both use ref movie tech to re-wrap the .mxf.

QT ref is a powerful tech, and given QT does all the heavy lifting, it should be supported by Resolve. Again, it may be that DaVinci did not intend to exclude it.

John Heagy


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Juan Salvo
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 4:32:05 pm

[John Heagy] "given QT does all the heavy lifting,"

You assume that Resolve is using QT APIs to decompress media.



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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 5:52:36 pm

[Juan Salvo] "You assume that Resolve is using QT APIs to decompress media."

Not necessarily...

QT API calls and codecs can work independently. It's very possible to use the QT API to locate and describe a ref movie and then use the codec separately, depending on the codec.

I believe one must use QT to decode ProRes unless Apple deems you worthy and provides the keys to AV Foundation.

John Heagy


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Eric Johnson
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 4:35:13 pm

Regardless of the power of that portion of QT, not arguing that it can be a life saver, how much work could have been done on your DaVinci by exporting local files, the DaVinci having access to the media or the DaVinci machine creating it's own local files from the Refs while you've been telling us how great the "Tech" is, which I believe most agree with.

Ref's can save a ton of space, but not really because the renders need to be somewhere.... either in the Ref itself or in your render folder. Ref's can, but not always, save a bunch of time. But right now, it appears that you are fighting an uphill battle with something that doesn't do what you want it to do.

It's also worth noting that, as a far as I've noticed, no one from BMD has chimed in here....

Sorry to be that guy...


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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 4:59:56 pm

[Eric Johnson] "how much work could have been done on your DaVinci by exporting local files"

Thank you for the concern, but no loss of work has occurred. We're in the early stages of integrating Resolve into our workflow.

[Eric Johnson] "it appears that you are fighting an uphill battle with something that doesn't do what you want it to do."


No battle has ensued, except with some who insist I should be happy with the Status Que. Believe me, if I settled for all the short comings and out right bugs I've encountered in apps we rely on... I'd be in a world of hurt. I'm prepared to lobby my case and, unless I get a definitive "no" from BMD, I can wait patiently for the fix/feature and work around it in the meantime.

If others have no need for ref movies then fine. Unless ref movie support in some way disrupts your workflow, I don't understand the resistance here.

John Heagy


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Joseph Owens
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 10, 2012 at 9:30:58 pm

[Juan Salvo] "Ive never expected resolve to work with reference movies..."

Me, either. The same with Apple COLOR -- reference movies are a big no-no, since the relative addressing gets lost in the same manner as nested sequences cannot be represented inside that model. Where an application expects a direct address to actual media, it cannot cope with another pointer to another pointer.

It sounds like the shared storage needs to be expanded into a universally accessible database, so the project references can find the actual media. In a way, this is a bit like exporting a reference file to an external system that doesn't even hold the originals, so the reference itself would be invalid.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 10, 2012 at 10:11:45 pm

"[Juan Salvo] "Ive never expected resolve to work with reference movies..."

[Joseph Owens] Me, either. The same with Apple COLOR..."

Ok, but I do. Reference movies are integral to our workflow plus they save us time and space. It does take some discipline to maintain the links but, with a large shared storage infrastructure, as long as the referenced files don't move the ref movie will always work.

A self contained movie is no different than a ref movie except that it points to itself. This may be why a ref movie with a single referenced file works.

Given Resolve works with QT files I'm surprised it doesn't work. Every app that I've encountered that supports QT files has never drawn a distinction between the two.

It would seem to be a easy fix as all the required paths are included in the ref movie.

John Heagy


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Juan Salvo
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 10, 2012 at 10:17:11 pm

[John Heagy] "It would seem to be a easy fix as all the required paths are included in the ref movie. "

Yes, but Resolve doesn't use these file paths. it uses it's own relative paths that relate to the media pools available. That's why I found it surprising that they work at all.



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John Heagy
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 10, 2012 at 10:31:44 pm

"John Heagy] "It would seem to be a easy fix as all the required paths are included in the ref movie. "

[Juan Salvo]Yes, but Resolve doesn't use these file paths. it uses it's own relative paths that relate to the media pools available. That's why I found it surprising that they work at all."


Then It's encouraging that a ref file with only a single referenced file works. If it was expecting the data in the ref file to be media, it would fail.

Resolve does "see" the correct duration, so it is respecting the .mov wrapper - now it just needs to look past the first referenced file to all the others and construct the entire file.

I'd love it if someone could confirm the single vs multiple reference file issue. My first post provides the simple instructions.

John Heagy


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Juan Salvo
Re: Reference movie issue
on Apr 11, 2012 at 12:00:05 am

I can confirm what I've known for a couple of years. That resolve doesn't accept ref movies. I've made the mistake of trying more than a few times on various versions, the fact that it accepts single referenced movies is a fluke. And probably has more to do with the way QuickTime is referencing the movie than with any hope of davinci support.



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