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Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?

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Yuri Radaev
Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 25, 2010 at 11:56:16 pm

Hi guys! Very good work, L&L is smarter and better! Now it not react on flashes or moving peoples (almost) - very impressive. But it still very slow. Let me explain - the typical chain is:

1) add L&L to clip (HDV-PAL)
2) analyze
3) WAIT
4) render
5) WAIT
6) review - edit
7) render
8) WAIT
9) review - ok

If i need to add CC and tweak it (and more filters) it is a painful! Render, and render, and wait, and wait… Very slow. The World's Fastest Stabilizer for FCP, something wrong with it :)
Please, add ability REALTIME PLAYBACK (like smoothcam).


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Roger Bolton
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 12:27:14 am

Lock & Load does have realtime playback using Unlimited RT. The actual result you get depends on your graphics card and sequence settings. Can you please send us your system profile to support at coremelt dot com and then we'll try and advise you further.

-
CoreMelt V2 plugins


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 1:01:36 am

Im using unlimitedRT, HDV quick setup and medium quality. Up to 8 different filters on one clip plays smooth (include 3wCC, smoothcam, shadows/hightlight, rgb ballance or fxfactory). LL does not support medium quality and dynamic resolution playback, so it is slow. Which hardware will be enough for smooth HDV playback with LL and strong 3-way CC or some thing like this?


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Roger Bolton
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 5:14:43 am

Hi Yuri, as mentioned we need to see your system profile to give detailed feedback. There is a certain level of Unlimited RT performance which third party fxplug effects can access and then there's another level open only to Apple's internal plugins like 3Way color corrector or SmoothCam. We do the best we can.

I would suggest you use the following workflow.

use the checkbox to disable all other plugins on that shot
apply lock & load
tweak stabilization settings until you are happy with the result using Unlimited RT
then re-enable other plugins and do final render

-
CoreMelt V2 plugins


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 11:36:24 am

tweak stabilization settings until you are happy with the result using Unlimited RT
It is not possible because playing is skipping ~50% of frames. To review stabilization quality and tweak it i need to render clip even if LL is only one filter applied. If i enable Digital Cinema Desktop Preview on second monitor LL plays smooth with 3 additional filters, but it not tracking anymore - "Couldn't get Frame [Error: -1, Tracker: 1814968688]". I use Frames because LLX has more restrictions.


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Eberhard Ammelt
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 12:49:20 pm

Then, without knowing the details of your system, I'd recommend to track motion with DCD off and then switch on DCD for previewing while you adjust stabilization settings.

Regards, Eberhard


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 1:37:52 pm

I have two systems with quad core intel processors and geforce 7300 and 9800. Anyway if LL can play smooth in DCD, is it mean that the system performance enough for it? Maybe a small patch will enable this ability work not only for DCD mode?


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Eberhard Ammelt
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 2:28:26 pm

Yes, this means that the system performance is enough - in principal. Actually, the performance requirements of Lock & Load are quite low for rendering.
From the perspective of Lock & Load there is no difference wether it renders to the canvas or for the DCD, it doesn't even know where it renders to.


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 3:48:12 pm

Then i play a simple HDV clip at low quality settings i see a lot of pixelizations - it is normal. Then i add LL to clip - pixelization is gone and i see full quality picture. It is because LL always render at high quality and this is not good, but in DCD mode i see pixelization again even if LL aplied. In DCD mode i can apply any quality mode and it is work properly with Lock and Load. But tracking is not working. Looks like a bug.

So i think Lock and Load supports dynamic quality settings but usually it is not working except DCD mode. This is the first issue. In DCD mode Lock and Load Frames very slow track motion and finally tracking is failed. FCP restart required, because after disabling DCD, tracker still not works and FCP crashes some time. This is the second issue.


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Eberhard Ammelt
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 26, 2010 at 7:02:41 pm

Lock & Load doesn't add or remove any pixelization at any quality level. You can consider the rendering part of Lock & Load as just a spatial transformation of the input images provided by FCP.
When DCD is on, FCP sometimes has problems to provide the images from the timeline correctly and often does this slowly. That's why we recommend to switch DCD off during motion tracking.
Please send us your crash logs.


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 27, 2010 at 12:10:44 pm

So, if LL tracker can't work in DCD mode, may be you can fix the first bug? "Lock and Load supports dynamic quality settings but usually it is not working except DCD mode."


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Roger Bolton
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 27, 2010 at 1:12:11 pm

Thanks for your feedback Yuri. We'd like to make Lock & Load work in all cases, but sometimes we are limited by bugs in FCP which we can't control. Please keep in mind we are constantly working to improve Lock & Load.

A free update will be coming out very soon.

-
CoreMelt V2 plugins


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Jayse Hansen
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Aug 30, 2010 at 10:39:21 pm

Just an fyi: I just bought Lock and Load and am totally loving it. Thanks for adding the rolling shutter reduction and making it in/out aware. Took me a long time to finally pull the trigger on the purchase but I'm glad I did. I'm pretty much always selecting the clip and cmd_r to render it (I have unlimited set to render) - I never really trust unlimited playback for things like that where I'm trying to judge subtle improvements.

Of course - if you're update makes it even faster or better I'm all for it!

Cheers,

// jayse



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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 10, 2010 at 9:25:02 pm

Hi! I have checked new update of LL and not found any speed improvements, it is still very slow and still have no realtime playback. Very sad… LL still not support dynamic quality, why? In digital cinema desktop mode it was support it, but now it's disabled. It is very important feature was disabled and we have slow playback in DCD mode too.

I have a LOT ( a lot, a lot…) long video needs to be stabilized. Almost all clips at 60mins timeline needs to apply stabilizer filter. I have tested all stabilization plugins software for Final Cut and found low quality analysis, unstable working, slow playback and sometimes stabilization is not working at all! Very poor quality software.

BCC optical stabilizer 7.0.0 processed only one field (!!!), tilt compensation is distorts the image instead of rotation and 7.0.1 is always not working.
Newblue stabilizer and magic bullet stabilizer have same problems with tilt compensations and camera flashes.
LLX is slow and crashes if i send to tracker queue too much clips. LLF is slow. Smoothcam processed only one field and responsible for camera flashes.

I have checked all trials and found no stabilizer for every day use, at long projects with many clips. All software looks like a toys - "take a clip, apply analyze and render it". Not professionally.

The best stabilizer must have an external tracker for background tracking, store analysis with satellite file, have smooth realtime playback and setup for region of frame. It must have a rolling shutter reduction, smart edge handling (not only zoom) and must be not sensitive for frame damage like a flashes.

………………………………Smoothcam…….LockAndLoad…..BCC…….Magic Bullet…..NewBlue
Background tracking……………V…………………V…………….x……………..x……………...x
Store analysis…………………….V…………………x……………..x…………….x………………x
Smooth playback…………………V…………………x……………..x……………x……………...x
Region of interest………………..x…………………V…………….V…………….V……………...x
Rolling shutter……………………x………………….V…………….x……………x……………….x
Smart edge………………………..x………………….x…………….V…………….x……………...V
Frame damage……………………x………………….V…………….V…………….x……………...x

The best quality tracking have Smoothcam. LL is a little lower Smoothcam but more tweak able, so all program errors can be corrected by human.


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Roger Bolton
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 11, 2010 at 12:59:25 pm

Hello Yuri, our plugin is currently as fast as final cut pro allows us to be. You will notice that NONE of the third party plugins have "smooth playback" according to you. Thats because smoothcam uses an RT method which is not available to third party plugins. We have already explained this to you. If a future FCP upgrade allows us to playback faster using unlimited RT then we will support that, until then there is nothing else we can do.

Lock & Load is in use by many professional editors around the world and is a professional level product, many flame editors and very high end users find it useful. Check out the list of testimonials on http://www.lockandloadx.com

Roger
CoreMelt

-
CoreMelt V2 plugins


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 11, 2010 at 8:44:09 pm

Hi Roger! Earlier "Lock and Load" had smooth playback in digital cinema preview mode (previous version). Now it is not working. Can you restore this ability?

Hello Yuri, our plugin is currently as fast as final cut pro allows us to be.

"C2 3d image random spacing" plays very smooth. It is do the same transformations! Horizontal and vertical movement and rotation. It is do with 16 copies and within 3D space. How it can be so smooth? Apple says:

Page 9 FCP FxPlug rendering path:

"In some circumstances, sequences cannot play back in realtime on all machines. When this happens, the RT engine can adjust quality in several ways in order to maintain reasonable playback performance."…"In general, medium quality is half the resolution of high quality, and low quality (if the codec supports it) is one fourth the resolution of high quality.
By default, Playback Video Quality is set to Dynamic. This means that the RT engine, in order to maintain the frame rate, adjusts quality during playback. If the RT engine cannot maintain playback at high quality, it shifts to medium quality—and then may shift back to high quality subsequently if it detects that it can.
The key point is this: your effect should be ready for quality changes in the middle of playback. You should not assume that image dimensions and renderInfo.scale will be constant from one frame to another."


I checked the page 11. If your plugin is properly support kFxQuality_MEDIUM or kFxQuality_LOW i will see HALF or QUARTER resolution. This is working for most other plugins. Unfortunately, all developers of stabilization software does not consider it necessary to support this feature.

Thank you for patience Roger!


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Eberhard Ammelt
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 12, 2010 at 9:12:51 am

Lock & Load doesn't know if it renders to the canvas or to the DCD and behaves in the same way. It just renders to the output which is provided by FCP. Everything else depends on FCP.

Regarding downscaling during playback this is a misunderstanding. A plugin cannot decide if it supports
downscaled render size or even request a downscaled render output according to the quality level.

FCP presents the downscaled render destination to the plugin when necessary, and Lock & Load will correctly render to this downscaled destination. A plugin has no choice in this respect.

Can you profile a render or a preview with Shark? If so, you'll see that Lock & Load is very fast in rendering.

Regards, Eberhard


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 12, 2010 at 12:34:56 pm

Hello Eberhard!
I see that the "C2 3D Random Spacing" plugin can play smooth and support dynamic quality playback. It does the same transformations and rotations like Lock and Load, but more complex - in 3d space with same image copies. Why Lock and Load is so slower and does not support dynamic quality?

Take a look:
http://picasaweb.google.com/109330232755636112679/Untitled?authkey=Gv1sRgCK...

Lock & Load doesn't know if it renders to the canvas or to the DCD and behaves in the same way. It just renders to the output which is provided by FCP. Everything else depends on FCP.
So, if i need a realtime playback in DCD mode, i must to downgrade to previous version Lock And Load trial?


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Eberhard Ammelt
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 12, 2010 at 5:26:56 pm

Yuri, I have been trying to explain that Lock & Load does support dynamic quality, but for some reasons FCP may not apply downscaling to increase preview frame rate. FxPlug filters are not all comparable with each other as they expose different properties to the host.
In my tests with a 1080p 25 fps clip I get a frame rate of about 12 fps with no downscaling applied. If FCP were applying downscaling, full frame rate would surely be achieved.

Regarding DCD there is no performance or quality difference between the current version of Lock & Load and its predecessor. If you find that the previous version works better for you, you can use it of course, but this may not be true in general.

Eberhard


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 12, 2010 at 6:32:45 pm

Thank you Eberhard! I understand what you mind except one thing. If I select MEDIUM quality, FCP always sends half resolution frame to plugin, right? But if I apply Lock and Load FCP always sends FULL resolution to plugin, even if MEDIUM quality enabled?


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Eberhard Ammelt
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 13, 2010 at 7:29:24 am

In my tests I couldn't get FCP to render at half resolution when Lock & Load is applied at any quality level.
This seems to be related to a certain property flag which is used by Lock & Load but not by other effects such as "C2 3D Random Spacing". This is required for Lock & Load Frames but maybe not for Lock & Load X. I'll check if we can avoid this for Lock & Load X.

Eberhard


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 13, 2010 at 8:46:49 am

I just checked Lock and Load X in DCD mode (with second monitor connected). It is works with half or quarter resolution and have smooth realtime playback. It is can be a solution for simple projects, not good, but better then nothing. Ok, I have more question about LLX for now. May I analyze all my videos with LLX rather then use it in timeline? Like smoothcam? When I use smoothcam, I add all my videos to project bin, analyze it all and then I don't think about analyzing then I edit my videos. Smoothcam store analysis information on disk and I not need to reanalyze. If I analyze video with LLX, where is information stores, may I use it any times I want (in other projects with same video)? May I run LLX tracker outside FCP via Terminal or Qmaster to create long batches? How many clips I can send to LLX tracker from FCP simultaneously?


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Eberhard Ammelt
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 13, 2010 at 9:07:46 am

With Lock & Load X and Frames you can analyze clips only from the timeline, and you can run the motion tracker only from within Lock & Load.
The tracking data is stored in the project and cannot be used from other projects.
You can send as many clips as you like to the motion tracker.

Eberhard


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Yuri Radaev
Re: Any progress with Lock and Load slow playback?
on Sep 13, 2010 at 1:49:22 pm

Thank you very much Eberhard! I hope you will realize RT playback in future.


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