FORUMS: list search recent posts

If you can't "stand" back pain, stand

COW Forums : Art of the Edit

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Bob Cole
If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 5, 2009 at 8:19:36 pm

I think this thread first appeared on the FCP Forum, but it really applies to all editors: how to avoid becoming a back-cripple while still spending hours in front of an NLE.

One person mentioned his solution: elevating his desk so he could stand all day. At the time I thought that was kind of radical, but in the Season 3 "Lost" DVD "day in the life" video, one of their main editors actually does just that. His desk was propped up on two wooden boxes; there was a bar stool in the room, but in the clips he was shown simply standing, alternating between the keyboard/mouse and the script, which was propped up on a little stand.

I'm not sure I could commit myself to standing all the time, but it would be neat to have a desk whose height you could change. The only ones I've actually seen are extremely expensive. It would actually be cheaper to have a second set of monitors and keyboard at a second desk (if I had the space).

Bob C


Return to posts index

Jason Diebler
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 5, 2009 at 8:25:32 pm

Walter Murch has only ever edited this way... he says editing is a dance.

Of course, this wouldn't work for me, my back hurts worse if I'm on my feet very long.


Return to posts index

Bob Bonniol
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 5, 2009 at 8:30:48 pm

I am totally sold on this. I made the change, and I would never go back. My chronic back pain has totally receded. I am losing weight, and have more energy. I also absolutely buy the Murch opinion that editing is dancing. When I am cutting or compositing I am dancing bobbing, FEELING tempo, rhythm...

I don't use anything fancy... Just have my table jacked up on piled half apples...

I totally recommend it.

Bob Bonniol

MODE Studios
http://www.modestudios.com
Contributing Editor, Live Design Magazine
Art of the Edit Forum Leader
Live & Stage Event Forum Leader
HD Forum Leader


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 5, 2009 at 8:54:23 pm

What I want is a table/desk that is a monitor (computer, video, and otherwise). It can be height adjustable for standing or sitting. Basically, the table is one huge giant touch screen monitor with the NLE interface of your choice and of course all programmable. No mouse, just our fingers, or a pointing device of your choice. Point, drag, done. keyboard is built in and can be configured in whatever shape or fashion you like.


Return to posts index

Arnie Schlissel
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 1:16:28 am

Jeremy, what you want is that workstation that Tom Cruise had in "Minority Report"!

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 1:33:21 am

[Arnie Schlissel] "what you want is that workstation that Tom Cruise had in "Minority Report"! "

Mmmm, kinda, but without the over acting, the "just to be cool" cool factor, and the pre-cognition people in the hot tub. A simple table with height and tilt adjust that's an actual touch screen and not a virutal touch screen would be kick butt.


Return to posts index


Arnie Schlissel
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 1:39:26 am

So, more like a giant Cintiq, and no hot tub, gottcha! How's about an integrated espresso maker?

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 1:58:15 am

[Arnie Schlissel] "So, more like a giant Cintiq,"

Now you're catching on. Along with that, a touch screen keyboard, a 42" color critical broadcast monitor (or 24", or full screen or whatever, basically, the whole thing can be a broadcast monitor if you want), could be scalable according to your needs. Of course, all pertinent video connection in and out to extend to your facility as needed.


Return to posts index

James Henley
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 9, 2009 at 11:33:26 am

It would take a while to get used to, but i think this could work well for editing:

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jeff_han_demos_his_breakthrough_touchscr...

J


Return to posts index


grinner hester
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 5, 2009 at 8:50:59 pm

I have a way bum knee that makes that impossible. Having had ten too many bad car wrecks, the ole back is a bummer too. I have found the best solution for me is a custom made console that is much higher than desks, allowing me to scoot my chair under it and rest my arm on it as I sit and edit. It's high enough I have to sit up straight, couldnt slouch if I wanted to. I have to pop my back about every hour as pinched nerves will make it numb in spots... then tingle which aint cool.
We are all made differently. It aint a one size fits all world. An oversized console is the fit my me.



Return to posts index

Bob Cole
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 5, 2009 at 9:18:46 pm

First, Jeremy -- Sheesh. I love the ideas, but NLE-style editing is already a lot of fun compared to upright moviolas and razor blades. If editing gets any cooler, do you think anybody will hire us to do it?????

Grinner, you may want to check out therapeutic yoga. My wife had a few sessions of it for back pain, and it really helped her. I'm starting regular yoga (cheap style, with a DVD from the library), and it is kind of neat. I like the way that it focuses on teaching you how to relax, even though it's a real workout.

I want to find the adjustable-height-but-cheap table.

Bob C


Return to posts index

hamish boyd
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 12:15:12 am

A mate of mine has this desk...

http://www.amesystem.com.au/products/computer-desks/Height-Adjustable-Compu...

motorized desk.. so he has the best of both worlds.
He has a number of monitors on arms hanging off it and splits his day up from standing and sitting.

Awesome piece of kit. Not sure where you get it in the states though.



Return to posts index


Arnie Schlissel
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 1:15:19 am

[hamish boyd] "A mate of mine has this desk..."

Yes, but does he have those stiletto heels? I think Eddie Izzard has a few pairs!

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


Return to posts index

Mark Raudonis
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 12:18:36 am

[Bob Cole] "I want to find the adjustable-height-but-cheap table. "
Saw this at NAB:

http://www.activatethespace.com/Activate_The_Space/Mode-AL.html

Very cool adjustable edit furniture. Don't know the price, but this stuff AIN'T cheap!

How much is your back worth?

mark




Return to posts index

Bob Cole
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 2:04:44 am

[Mark Raudonis] "How much is your back worth? "

More than dollars can measure. Unfortunately, I still have to be able to pay for whatever I come up with. If the editor of "Lost" stacks his desk on boxes, there's no shame in my doing the same.

But that motor-driven adjustable table with motor-driven monitor height adjustment... awwwwwesome. Just for curiosity, did you get a price?

On the Fantasy Front, with all this talk of ultimate desks, why does the image of Jabba the Hutt lounging in his den of decadence come to mind? They call it WORK, people. It shouldn't be too luxurious! What's next? hit a button and ambrosia fills the air? Built-in espresso machines? Hit another button and a little hand comes out and rubs your back?

Bob C


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 2:39:49 am

[Bob Cole] "They call it WORK, people."

THe amount of time I have spent sitting at an edit desk, ti deserves to be full of fantasy. Don't you think?

I'd also like a 'Gin and Tonic' button and the 'Limo Full of Dancing Girls' button.

And of course, the 'New Clients with Lots of Money' button when things slow down.

Did I just say that out loud?




Return to posts index

Tim Kolb
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 12:57:17 pm

I had my editing console designed to stand or sit in a drafting chair... I like it. Between that and lighting the room completely D65, I have a lot more energy...(and more rack room under the countertop).

...plus a surface that is bar-height just feels more natural for someone from Wisconsin.

:-)




TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


Return to posts index

Mark Suszko
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 3:08:06 pm

Touch screen or gestural interface like Minority Report seems like it would be cool... but do I really want to be doing tai chi eight hours a day, just to edit? I picture poor Frederson moving the clock arms around and around in "Metropolis"... no thanks! For me it has become about reducing movements to the barely perceptible.

As far as the back thing, you'd be surprised how much of that is moderated by proper eyeline and ergonomic monitor placement, as well as good shoes and flooring.


I keep looking for a quality adjustable-height version of the "balans" "knee chair". This is the chair that makes you look like the lazy people in church that kind of shlump halfway between kneeling and sitting. The balans chair looks awkward but is supposedly very good for your back because it keeps you straight without a back support cushion, helps build your back muscles up, keeps better blood circulation thruout the legs as well. However, I can only locally find the cheap plywood and particle-board models that don't last and are not height-adjustable. So right now I still sit in Aeron chair knockoffs, not bad though if the lumbar support is set right. I also take lots of little breaks to walk around for this and that.

For Christmas the wife gave me one of those Homemedics brand chair cushion full-length back massagers that straps to your office chair. It is very nice to digitize and log tape while getting unlimited shiatsu rolling massages in the upper and lower back..... mmmmmmm. Comes with a 2-part cord so you can use it in the car, but I'd be afraid of driving too relaxed and getting into an accident:-)

(Coroner): "Looks like this was recent, no rigor yet."
(paramedic): "When we pulled him out of the car, he just sort of poured out".
(Coroner): "And look, he's still smiling..."


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 3:13:42 pm

[Mark Suszko] "For me it has become about reducing movements to the barely perceptible. "

I see, you want to control the interface through your eyes!


Return to posts index

Mark Suszko
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 4:01:27 pm

Been done. Back in the early eighties. One of my early freelance forensic video jobs was documenting a cool project done by the rehab Institute of Chicago. The patient was a little boy with severe problems and paralysis from a traumatic birth accident, basically he was like a 6-year old version of Steven Hawking, in terms of his mobility, and he could not speak.

The Rehab tech guys emulated the head-tracking gun controls of an Apache attack helicopter, using a primitive apple iic strapped to the wheelchair, and eyeglasses with a harmless low-power Infra-red laser diode bouncing a beam off the kid's eyeballs. The eyeglasses had changeable icon decals along the edges of the clear glass lenses. The computer read the eyeball position and timed how long the kid would fix on a a particular decal icon, then the kid would trigger with a blink to make the mac speak with a voice synthesizer. So when it was all put together, with just a little training this kid who couldn't communicate at all before, was now able to put together sentences like "I am cold, mom." "I am hungry". "Love you". Can I watch TV now". etc. They even had simple games he could play using the glasses. This was important because with the new communications tool, they were able to finally assess the kid's true level of mental ability and it turned out he was in much better shape than anybody could guess, he'd just been locked inside his own head and unable to express himself. With new proof of his true abilities, the defendants settled and the court changed the award from the lawsuit to add special ed tutoring and such to improve the kid's life. Money was also awarded to further develop the translator system and improve it and make it easier to work with, with expanded vocabulary and functions.

I was deeply affected by this assignment, in that it showed me how creative people could take a sword, a technology developed for war and killing, and turn it into a true ploughshare, a tool for better communication, for healing. And it showed me that you really don't know a person just by what you perceive from surface impressions. Everybody, particularly the insurance company and defense lawyers, had written the kid off as a vegetable, thus undeserving of additional therapy, when he really wasn't. His quality of life was immensely improved by the work of the guys at RIC.

I often wonder whatever became of the device; by now, thanks to modern advancements it should be about the size of an ipod, and spin-off versions should be available for us to use as a GUI input instead of or to complement a mouse.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 4:32:56 pm

That is a truly awesome story. I caught something similar about 6 months ago on Discovery Channel (maybe it was Discovery Health). The kid was immobile, but he was hooked up through his eyes to a Macbook and could then communicate. He had a girlfriend and everything.

I like your sword analogy, it's so true.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Mark Suszko
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 8:24:31 pm

It was a challenging shoot. Our camera gear was very distracting to the kid, if he saw the camera or operator, he'd just concentrat on that instead of the therapist/evaluator. The director mused that he wished we had a 1-way window in the house to hide behind. I came up with the next best thing: we used two sets of auto-poles stacked verically to create a place to hold up a mirror we grabbe dfrom somewhere and gaffed/clamped on. We shot into the mirror from behind the kid so we got his face using a telephoto shot but he couldn't see anything but a blank lens, and this worked awesome. I earned my money that day

"Oh, you wanted to RECORD that?"


Return to posts index

Mike Cohen
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 6, 2009 at 8:31:45 pm

Donald Rumsfeld famously used a standing desk in his office at the Pentagon. Clearly this helped him make wise decisions during his career!

Seriously, I am a big proponent of good ergonomics, regardless of your favorite position for working.

Here is what the government has to say
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/components_monitors.ht...

Get a chair that lets you adjust the height of not only the seat but the arms as well. Your arms on the arm rests should be somewhat parallel to the floor. Of course if you work for the Penguin and your floor is seriously tilted, then you're on your own.

The angle of your back should be straight. A chair with adjustable back angle is best, or one that is fixed in the vertical position.

I like the center(left-right, top-bottom) of my monitor roughly lined up with my nose, roughly arm's length from my person.

As for the keyboard, the J key should be lined up with the sternum or solar plexus. I prefer to have the mouse at the same vertical level as the keyboard, that is on the table, level with my belly button. If you do not have a belly button, then your navel! This is based upon a standard 30" desk height.

Speaking of your navel, just down the road is your posterior. Those of us who sit a lot need whatever extra padding we can get. I use a small cushion on top of my chair's built-in cushion. There are other drawbacks to prolonged sitting which I shall not get into (eat bran).

Depending upon your leg length, your feet should be flat on the floor. If you have long legs, you may need to extend your legs at an angle in order for the other positions to hit their marks, or get a higher desk.

The positions of other frequently used objects is just as important. If your telephone is behind you or on a short wire, this can impact your neck and other appendages.

Most important of all is your snack drawer. You should be able to reach a Snickers bar or can of Jolt without even looking or moving your chair!

Hmm, now where did I put that heavy instruction manual..ah, here it is, let me just reach at an odd angle for that...ooh, got it.

Mike Cohen




Return to posts index

Timothy J. Allen
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 7, 2009 at 2:57:49 pm

I have a drum practice pad and sticks on a desk right behind me. When I start feeling tight or tired, I take a short break and go through some snare drum exercises and warm-ups. It exercises and stretches both my muscles - and my creativity.



Return to posts index

Arnie Schlissel
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 7, 2009 at 12:57:37 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I see, you want to control the interface through your eyes!"

He wants to make an eye-line cut!

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


Return to posts index

Abraham Chaffin
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 7, 2009 at 2:45:22 pm

A woman who had chronic back problems, when she found I did a lot of computer work, told me that sitting all day is one of the surest ways to end up with back problems.

I do this once in awhile with a portable shelf I work off of. It's good to make sure you move around or walk a bit so you don't stand stationary too long and end up with varicose veins in your legs as the blood pools. Standing on something soft is also important.

Abraham


Return to posts index

Jason Diebler
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 7, 2009 at 8:35:23 pm

Did anyone else notice the Anthro Furniture ad space conveniently placed to the right of this thread?


Return to posts index

Nick Griffin
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 10, 2009 at 7:19:40 pm

I have an Anthro desk for our primary work station and know that a number of others do as well. Proud Bovine Walter Biscardi's #2 edit suite appears to be configured with Anthro furniture always at the standing position.

While the Anthro desk doesn't adjust the monitor up or down (have to tilt them up or down to shift positions) it does raise the keyboard/mouse surface for standing and lower it for sitting. I don't switch back and forth to standing often, but do on occasion. More often than not I'm switching between the keyboard at its lowest point and a mid-point while still seated.

On our standard def workstation (and my desk work area) I have a small ledge under the desk, a couple of feet in, which allows me to prop my feet up and lean back for a different work position.

Quite possibly of far greater comfort for back and neck pain is having a set of fixed vision glasses. You youngsters won't understand this but once you get over 40 close-up vision starts to go. The solution to this used to be bi-focal or tri-focal glasses. Then somebody came up with the bright idea of "progressive" lenses which gradually change from close-up at the bottom of the lens to distance around the middle and beyond. This must work for some "normal" people, but for me it means that only a horizontal sliver is in focus at a time to I'm left to hold me head at a particular angle to see the screen sharply and raise and lower it to look at different parts of the monitors.

I cured this idiocy by sitting down with the optometrist, determining the exact distance I work from the monitor and having a special pair of single vision, that distance alone glasses cut. They reside on my desk and that's all they're used for. Honestly having them has relieved more back and neck pain than any chair or desk ever could. (But that's just me. What do I know?)



Return to posts index

Bob Cole
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 11, 2009 at 1:00:43 am

[Nick Griffin] "Quite possibly of far greater comfort for back and neck pain is having a set of fixed vision glasses."

Nick has a good point. Ever since I needed glasses at all, I realized that editing, especially with dual monitors plus a broadcast monitor, required me to sit farther away than I would with a laptop, but still not so far that my distance lenses were helpful. Since having a special pair of editing glasses made, I have tended to contort and strain forward a lot less just to see what I'm doing.

I'd like to see that Anthro set-up sometime.

Bob C


Return to posts index

Nick Griffin
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 11, 2009 at 10:55:52 am

[Bob Cole] "I'd like to see that Anthro set-up sometime."

Not hard to see a LOT of Anthro stuff. Here's one of the bigger ones, there are many.

http://www.anthro.com/ppage.aspx?pmid=35


Return to posts index

Jeffrey Krepner
Re: If you can't "stand" back pain, stand
on May 12, 2009 at 5:57:01 pm

I got a nice big fully motorized sit/stand desk for about $550 last year. (Also available with a hand-crank.)

http://www.tvilum-scanbirk.com/default.aspx?ID=1793&ProductID=80400/760803&...

Here are some others:
http://www.tvilum-scanbirk.com/default.aspx?ID=1793&GroupID=Working

The more (much more) expensive and better known Scandinavian Sit/Stand is Jesper.
http://www.jesperoffice.com/Sit_Stand_.php?cid=240

If you do a search for "Danish Sit/Stand desks" you'll find more info. I was told that it is mandatory in some countries for employers to provide sit/stand desks for all office workers. I got mine from a Scandinavian furniture store in Columbia, MD. (between DC and Baltimore) http://www.indoorfurnitureusa.com/, however I don't know if they still carry them. But they might be able to order or point you in the right direction.

It's pretty cool and also makes a nice cat elevator to raise lower cats to/from the window sill. It is really refreshing to stand, especially for those of us that get restless easily. The other bonus is that it is easy to slightly raise or lower the desk so you can position your chair totally under the desk, like Grin likes, or more at waist level if you want to sit back.

Get one!

Jeff



Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]