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Ty Ford
Noisy camera
on Jun 25, 2005 at 11:42:08 am

I was on a studio shoot the last two days and was pretty amazed at how loud the whine was from the Sony HD camera. It was definiitely there in my Schoeps.

Camera was about 12 feet from the talent and boom.

The shooter (kiddingly) commented that the whine was a hallmark of HD production.

Seemed like the noise was louder on the tape side than the eyepiece side.

Any comments? Any solutions? Any Barney's

Regards,

Ty Ford







Ty Ford's "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" was written for video people who want better audio. Find out more at http://www.tyford.com


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tony salgado
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 2, 2005 at 6:02:11 pm



Depending on where the menu for the fan is set to this would effect how loud the camera would sound.


Another item might be the actual tape transport tension issue which might cause the camera to be noisy?



Tony Salgado


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Ty Ford
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 2, 2005 at 7:29:09 pm

Is the fan always on?

Ty


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tony salgado
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 2, 2005 at 7:40:55 pm



It depends on what the setting has been set to in the camera.

The camera runs hot so the fan is essential to keep it cool.

Generally can be set to turn on and off in auto mode I believe.

It should not be set to off forever.


I have not had any audio issues with the fan on only when the transport motor was noisy.



Tony Salgado


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Ty Ford
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 2, 2005 at 7:58:48 pm

I think this was transport noise. It was only audible when the camera was rolling. Then, on a quiet set, even at 12 feet or so, it was audible. More so than the HVAC in the building.

Regards,

Ty



Ty Ford's "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" was written for video people who want better audio. Find out more at http://www.tyford.com


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Michael Brennan
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 5, 2005 at 1:56:55 am

<>

The critical piece of information is how far the boom is from the talent.



Mike Brennan


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Ty Ford
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 5, 2005 at 2:39:47 am

Well the MIC was less than 14 inches from the talent's mouth and they were both more than 12 feet from the camera. The boom was extended about 6 feet and lashed to a C-stand, but I don't think the placement of the boom is an issue. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford



Ty Ford's "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" was written for video people who want better audio. Find out more at http://www.tyford.com


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tony salgado
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 5, 2005 at 8:31:53 pm



Michael,

Unless the soundman was a completely fool and put the mic next to the camera which is not the case in this scenario the noise issues are indeed related to the camera head.

C'mon Mike did you think he was using the on board camera mic? All qualified soundmen would place the boom mic within 18" of the subject for a sit down interview. No such thing as a super duper telephoto mikey phone.

I highly suspect transport noise because I have encountered this issue not only with the F900 but even with older betacam camcorders.



Tony Salgado



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Ty Ford
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 5, 2005 at 8:43:40 pm

I've noticed the Digi Beta cameras are VERY noisy. I was doing sound for a two camera Digi Beta shoot for MD Public TV a few years back. We were shooting a string quartet from about 8 feet in a 13x15 room. I was shocked at how loud the cameras were.

Regards,

Ty Ford

PS I guess HGTV will put music under everything to cover the whine.

Ty Ford's "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" was written for video people who want better audio. Find out more at http://www.tyford.com


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Bryan Rawles
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 5, 2005 at 11:30:38 pm



Was the camera running off of battery or the AC adapter? While the camera does have fans, are they are adjustable, the AC adapter that mounts on the rear of the camera also has a fan which I have found to sometimes rather loud. It has been loud enough that I have had to just go with batteries for some interviews.

- Bryan


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Ty Ford
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 6, 2005 at 1:09:16 am

Battery.

This was a medium high pitched tone that only happened when the camera transport was running.

When the transport was stopped, the tone briefly alternated on/off 2-3 times and then stoppped until the camera went into record again.


Regards,

Ty Ford



Ty Ford's "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" was written for video people who want better audio. Find out more at http://www.tyford.com


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Michael Brennan
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 9, 2005 at 2:42:33 am

"l qualified soundmen would place the boom mic within 18" of the subject for a sit down interview. No such thing as a super duper telephoto mikey phone."

On a public forum one has to eliminate even the obvious.
Sure we all know the camera is noisy! so why is the sound guy complaining about the camera!

If the soundrecordist is complaining it means

1/ There is an unusual fault with the camera so it makes more noise.
2/ Soundrecordist has not worked on video before and is not familiar with normal sound from camera.
3/ Soundrecordist is a novice and either mic placement is incorrect or he has camera mic switched on camera on but doesn't know it. (a not uncommon occurance with pros too)


I said in my post "the critical piece of information is how far the boom was from talent" refering to a previous post from Ty where *camera to subject distance was mentioned*



Tony, you assume the sound op was a pro and experienced on video, this is not always the case!
You also assume that I was ignoring that HD cameras are noisy, I wasn't, others had already mentioned video cameras are noisy in this thread. I do refer to noisy cameras on the FAQ on my website and included it in a book for European Digital Cinema Production Guide, which included a interview with Bergmans dislike of shooting HD due to noisey cameras.


Ty you mention it was a Sony HD camera. Was it a Z1? FX1? f900? HDW750? HDW730? or a HDW700?
The older camera, HDW700 will almost certainly have needed tape transport parts changed or it will become even more noisy. f900 mark ones are probably also of a vintage where this should happen.

Is this mentioned in your book that you advertised on your post; "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide"
was written for video people who want better audio.


Mike Brennan


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Ty Ford
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 9, 2005 at 3:45:31 am

I'm a fairly experienced location audio guy and an even more experienced studio audio guy.

It was a CineAlt camera. I don't consider the Z or F Sony HDV cameras HD. They are HDV. Big diffference for me, although they are quieter than the Cinealt I was working with.

No I don't mention it in my book. Not much you can do about it. I can pretty much tell the producer I'm hearing it and hand him/her the headphones so they can make the call. If they want to go with it, I've done my job.

Based on what I know about the final mix, they were going to put music under it. I don't know if they did that to cover up the noise or just because they wanted to move the sections along.

Regards,

Ty Ford



Ty Ford's "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" was written for video people who want better audio. Find out more at http://www.tyford.com


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john sharaf
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 9, 2005 at 3:58:13 am

It's true that the F900 camera requires a fan for cooling that can be heard in quiet environments or when the camera is close to the subject and mike. It's also true that some transports that are aged or out of adjustment make an even louder sound that the fan, and undoubtedly can be picked up on the track.

It seems to me that it would be obvious if this were the case as you hear (as was mentioned) the noise more when the on-board deck was turning, and a logical corrective manuever would be to use a heavy coat or jacket as a "barney" to deaden the effect where and when its required. There are no commmercial barneys made for this camera that I know of, unlike those which we used to use on our Eclair NPR's (which really cound put out a noise including an occasional squuking sound) and again logic would require that you remove the makeshift barney to let the camera cool when you're not rolling.

By contrast, the Varicam is dead quiet, which can be equally disconcerting because sometimes you're not sure you're actually rolling (except for the tally).


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tony salgado
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 9, 2005 at 3:41:17 pm



Mike,


Are you trying to imply that Ty is not a professional? It was clear to me that he is not a novice just a professional seeking information.

I regret you did not mention the audio information on your website in your first post which would have been quite helpful for all "pro's" seeking information.


Tony Salgado







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Ty Ford
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 9, 2005 at 4:54:48 pm

::chuckle::

Ty

Ty Ford's "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" was written for video people who want better audio. Find out more at http://www.tyford.com


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Michael Brennan
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 18, 2005 at 12:29:27 am

"Are you trying to imply that Ty is not a professional? It was clear to me that he is not a novice just a professional seeking information."

No it is obvious Ty is a professional, the mystery to me is that he was surprised that/by f900s noise, despite having written the book about audio for video.

Hence asking the basic questions to check there wasn't something basicly wrong in the room ie camera mic on , mic placement, faulty camera. Kinda things that happen to everyone eventuially.
I guess this led you to believe I was questioning his professionalism?

"I regret you did not mention the audio information on your website in your first post which would have been quite helpful for all "pro's" seeking information."


Googling the subject "f900 noisy" would get to my site and also I notice, to this very thread!


Mike Brennan



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Ty Ford
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 18, 2005 at 1:00:40 am

Whereas my surprise was that a manufacturer of professional video gear would intentionally produce a camera that generated enough noise to be objectionable. How does something like that happen?

The only parallel I can think of at the moment (and it's a poor one) would be a boom operator who constantly dipped his/her boom into the shot. Of course that would not be tolerated. Why then should a camera that makes enough noise to be picked up by a boom mic.

The only presumption I can muster is that the manufacturer didn't intend for the camera to be used in studio environments or in other moderately low noise environments.

I did sound on a 2x digibeta shoot a few years ago in a 12' x 14' room. We were shooting a string quartet. The noise from both digibeta cameras really compromised the sound. I doubt the CineAlta used on the two days of my recent shoot would have fared much better.

Hey, if nothing else, this should be a wakeup call for camera manufacturers...'Quiet On The Set' includes the camera as well!

Regards,

Ty Ford


Ty Ford's "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" was written for video people who want better audio. Find out more at http://www.tyford.com


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tony salgado
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 18, 2005 at 4:43:42 am



Michael,


"Sounds" to me like we are going around in circles.

If you got something to offer say it here on the Cow.

Be direct, don't be bashful or shy.

Now speak up I can't hear you cause my Googlevision TV volume is up too loud.


Enuff said,


Tony Salgado


PS I do believe Ty deserves the real credit for "Google" directing everyone to the noisy F900 thread since he started it.


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Michael Brennan
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 21, 2005 at 6:14:59 am

Tony
"If you got something to offer say it here on the Cow.
Be direct, don't be bashful or shy.
Now speak up I can't hear you cause my Googlevision TV volume is up too loud."

Huh?
Don't have a clue what you are talking about ...! I'm hardly shy about pointing out faults with a f900 if I run a webite listing them!

Getting back to the subject the concept Ty is wondering why the f900 is noisy as it is.
This is due to it being the first 12bit HD camera that was designed in a hurry.
Up until the 400 from Panasonic there have been no other 12bit HD camcorders.
Varicam engineer said they couldn't make Varicam 12bit due to heat and wanting to keep camera small.
Sony made it and solved the heat with noisey fans.

In respect to comments about noisey cameras in general compromises and workarounds are made everyday.
I used the 790 camera in same room in a pro studio about 6 feet away whilst Sting was recording the actual take of a number. I put a jacket over the camera.
Ditto Shinead O'Conner. A f900 would also have required a barney for the take.

Like SD cameras some are noisier than others, usually as they get older or if they haven't been serviced.
A comment that soundrecordists could make to PMs before a music recording shoot. Sony 20 and 24 inch monitors have a fan on the HDSDI input which is often overlooked.

The fan can be switched off but will eventually come on when the camera heats up.

It could be better but it doesn't seem to be show stopper, many soundrecordists I know take a roll of fabric or drape if they have critical sound to record on location on HD.

Using the Panasonic 400 tomorrow, will be interesting to see what a few years development does to reducing heat.



Mike Brennan




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laguun
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 9, 2005 at 4:33:52 am

[Ty Ford] "I was on a studio shoot the last two days and was pretty amazed at how loud the whine was from the Sony HD camera."

The old 900 cameras can be quite noisy. The newer 750 is completly silent - was one of the reasons why we didn


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Steve Wargo
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 10, 2005 at 8:48:14 pm

The 950 should be exceptionally quiet because there is no tape deck.

I have a difficult time believing how many people do not know that the 950 is a camera head and nothing else.

I'll bet the Viper is a quiet one also.



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yoricke
Re: Noisy camera
on Jul 11, 2005 at 6:19:24 am

[Steve Wargo] "
The 950 should be exceptionally quiet because there is no tape deck."

Yeah, but does it have fans? The taperun never was the problem with the 900&750 for us, but that little fan in the 900.
btw - i can


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