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Michael Gleissner
Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 5:42:27 am

It is incredible how a company can behave and still draw some kind of "excitement". We have ordered a camera, they took the deposit, and kept promising the delivery date which always changed.

Then, suddenly (= 4 months late) they informed us that "our" camera (serial #1328) "is ready" and would be ready to be shipped upon full payment. We sent the check.

They happily cashed it - but no shipment of any camera. Upon renewed inquiry they talked again about delays, could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks.

In my book, if you tell the customer that your product is ready and he pays, it is FRAUDULENT if it is not. I really don't care how great this camera is, but these guys have ZERO business ethics and customer service.

I hope I can get the money back, otherwise I will sue them. And everybody who talks to me I will warn about such a B.S. company. They probably should have stayed with sunglasses ...

Michael Gleissner


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Leo Ticheli
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 3:10:27 pm

Without any doubt, Red will be happy to refund your money. They have many more orders for cameras than can be filled before a few months wait. After NAB an unexpected number of reservation holders decided to take delivery and that has slowed the process of getting cameras out, even some who received notice and paid.

I've followed Red's business practices closely; they are rather overwhelmed with orders, but they never fail to conduct themselves honorably.

I must tell you that I consider your post to be pretty far over the line of acceptability. Do not use this forum for such unwarranted charges.

Best regards,

Leo





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Kyle Self
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 3:37:36 pm

Leo,

Say you were finishing a product for a client and you called and said "your masters are ready, send the check and I'll get them to you." Then when they asked about there masters your response was , "Now I don't actually know when you'll get them". Tell me how that would go over?

That an unexpected number of reservation holders wanted their cameras is a shoddy excuse. It should be assumed that they all want their cameras. If there were only a certain number available that should have been made clear from the start. Then as soon as you have that many reservation holders that want their camera you stop going down the list until they have all had their chance to make payment. There should be no surprises.

He is not the only person I have heard this from. When you tell someone you can have your product once you pay and then they pay and it becomes oops we don't know when you'll get it after they've paid is bad business. I am in no way accusing Red of fraud. It doesn't have to be an intentional act to be both shoddy and unprofessional. What I am saying is they really don't appear to have their act together.

K



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Leo Ticheli
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 3:43:55 pm

Kyle,

Do you have any direct experience dealing with Red?

Are you an owner or reservation holder?

If not, you really don't know what you're talking about.

Best regards,

Leo







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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 4:00:09 pm

I still like the product, but have heard those issues as well.

I don't have a first hand experience like Michael, but I surely believe a couple of my clients.
Let's hope they do deliver on their promise.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Online Editor
Ph: 310.826.9199
AIM: stuart.colorist
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com

"HD, 2K & RED Post Production for Indies at Affordable Rates"



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gary adcock
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 4:16:56 pm

[Leo Ticheli] "I must tell you that I consider your post to be pretty far over the line of acceptability. Do not use this forum for such unwarranted charges.
"


I am going to second Leo's remarks. Especially when I noted that this was the first and only post from this person. I assume it is meant to instigate ill will towards RED.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Ron Lindeboom
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 4:40:15 pm

[Leo Ticheli] "After NAB an unexpected number of reservation holders decided to take delivery and that has slowed the process of getting cameras out, even some who received notice and paid."

I do not believe for a second that RED is a bunch of liars or crooks but after getting your email Leo asking that this thread be pulled and this guy banned from the COW, I came in here to read this thread and see what is up and have to say this: Based on what you just said above, Leo, if RED were my business, I would have cut refund checks and not kept the money from those whose orders could not be fulfilled. I would have refunded all of it and yet still allowed them to keep their place in the order line. It would have shown good faith and would have been a great way to maintain good will with customers who got caught in this situation. But... If you are going to keep the money of "some who received notice and paid," then you have to expect anger and displeasure when "an unexpected number of reservation holders ... slow the process of getting cameras out." Translation: Some of those who paid didn't get their cameras.

It doesn't take a psychic to see what is going to happen when you do this.

I am going to ask Michael Gleissner to write me at ron@creativecow.net and I will send him my fax number and he can fax proof to me of his claims. If they are true, then I think he has a legitimate complaint and his words stand. If he doesn't fax me or cannot prove his claims to our satisfaction, then we will yank this thread and turn off his account in a heartbeat.

Oh, and we DO check IP addresses and have other ways and means to verify identities, etc., so don't be surprised if we find a claim to be a hoax, that we make public the identity of anyone that tries this as a hoaxer. We have done it in the past in the JVC forum and elsewhere. We will do it again.

But legitimate claims? They stand. They should. The truth is the truth and over the years we have lost more than one company who still refuses to do business with us because we hold this policy.

That is our official stand and policy.

Ron & Kathlyn Lindeboom
creativecow.net


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Leo Ticheli
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 5:24:07 pm

Ron,

Surely you're not suggesting that Red was unwilling to, "cut refund checks and not kept the money from those whose orders could not be fulfilled?"

If Mr. Gleissner was told that he couldn't have his money refunded, he has a very valid complaint. I'd like to see that in writing. Where is it?

Red has always had the policy of deposit refunds to anyone for any reason at any time. They have orders for more than 4000 cameras and are just now beginning to deliver the second thousand; does anyone rational believe they aren't trying to get them out as fast as possible?

Steve Wargo, you're my pal, but you are all wet about Red's business practices. Have you actually done business with them? Do you have a Red camera on order?

I was hoping this forum would be a place where intelligent questions could be answered by those with actual experience both with the camera and the company. This is often not the case.

Once again noise triumphs over signal. Too many, "what lens do I use to make a movie," sort of posts at the Cow, too many, "what professional lighting kit can I buy for $200.00," posts, too many posts from people who have ZERO actual experience but pretend to know what they're talking about.

I have a Red camera. I use it. I do business with Red. I know what I'm talking about. I believe that makes me valuable to people who rely on the Cow for accurate, helpful information.

Best regards,

Leo










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Michael Gleissner
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 5:51:15 pm

Leo, the point is not refunding the money, the point is that they were saying "hey, your camera #1281 is ready, just pay the balance and we ship it" and then after full payment they say "Hey, we are sorry we don't have it" - this is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

I would cancel the thing in a heartbeat had I not been so stupid and rely on what a company says is true, and ordered an underwater housing that is specifically manufactured for the camera (and not refundable). Next time I know better when dealing with startup companies with no track record.

Michael
-------
-------
Michael Gleissner - mgleiss@corp.bigfoot.com
Bigfoot Entertainment Inc.
401 Wilshire Blvd., 9th floor
Santa Monica CA 90401




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Ron Lindeboom
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 7:06:30 pm

[Leo Ticheli] "Surely you're not suggesting that Red was unwilling to, "cut refund checks and not kept the money from those whose orders could not be fulfilled?""

Leo, please DO NOT try to put words into my mouth by twisting what I actually said. I said that I do not believe for a minute that RED is a bunch of liars or crooks. I never said that they refused to send back the money of *anyone* who requested to have it sent back.

What I DID say was that if it were my business, I wouldn't have made those ask who found themselves caught in this unfortunate situation. I would have stepped up to the plate first. I would have made a preemptive strike. I would have let them keep their place in line and refunded all deposits with my apologies for the situation. That is called a "good will gesture."

Without doing this, they left themselves open for this kind of displeasure and disgust from some of their own customers.

If that is hard for you to understand, then I do not know what more I can say in this.


[Leo Ticheli] "If Mr. Gleissner was told that he couldn't have his money refunded, he has a very valid complaint. I'd like to see that in writing. Where is it?"

Once again, you are trying to create a smoke screen around the real issue -- as this is NOT what anyone said was the case, nor the issue. NO ONE said that this happened. You are trying to create a debate on a point that no one said. Ah, but it's a political year and so it seems to be in the air, doesn't it???


[Leo Ticheli] "Red has always had the policy of deposit refunds to anyone for any reason at any time. They have orders for more than 4000 cameras and are just now beginning to deliver the second thousand; does anyone rational believe they aren't trying to get them out as fast as possible?"

Once again, I would refer you to my reply as to smoke screens and debates on issues that were never said nor implied. No one doubts that RED is trying to fill these orders as quickly as possible -- that was never the "bone of contention" nor what the issue was directed at.

To get it off the "bunny trail" and back to the actual issue that was being stated and addressed: It has to do with companies taking money from notices that they themselves sent stating that units were ready and that needed final payment in order to ship them -- only to be told after the money was paid that there were "issues" and that they would NOT be forthcoming as promised.

THAT is the issue.


[Leo Ticheli] "I was hoping this forum would be a place where intelligent questions could be answered by those with actual experience both with the camera and the company. This is often not the case."

With something as revolutionary as the RED ONE, there are bound to be all kinds of preposterous statements made both for and against the camera. But this issue is pretty straightforward from all I can see. Trying to create it in an image of a debate framed in terms and arguments that are clearly neither stated nor implied -- at least not in the terms you seem to hear -- is clearly of the very spirit that you seem to decry as not being one of intelligence.


[Leo Ticheli] "Once again noise triumphs over signal."

Yes, indeed. It appears that it does, doesn't it?

:)


[Leo Ticheli] "Too many, "what lens do I use to make a movie," sort of posts at the Cow, too many, "what professional lighting kit can I buy for $200.00," posts, too many posts from people who have ZERO actual experience but pretend to know what they're talking about."

Wow, Leo. I look around the COW and I see person after person with experience in major motion pictures, major broadcast productions and many other projects that are far beyond the newbies who ask why shop lights can't be used to make their Star Wars fanboy film.

And next time, please feel free to mention me by name as being one one of the ones with ZERO experience that you were referring to. But what you do not know as I do not tell people in the COW what I work on or do not work on, is that I am currently working on a motion picture with one of my favorite actors of all-time, someone whom I grew up watching on Playhouse 90, the Kraft Masterpiece Theatre, Hallmark Hall of Fame, etc., and that is Nehemiah Persoff. Why do I never talk about it? Because you can't build something like the COW without ticking off some people and over the years I have critics who spend too much of their time ripping into me and so I just quietly go about my business and let those think what they will who wish to. I don't care. If I worried about what people thought or said, I'd be a miserable man. So I just do what I wish when I wish and leave people to their thoughts.

But in closing, once again attempting to turn the argument to issues that were not stated nor implied seems to be all the rage this political season and attempts to derail the real issue which was and is...

Why did they take this guy's money at their request and then not do anything to circumvent this kind of displeasure when circumstances prevailed which kept them from fulfilling the promised unit???

That, mon ami, is the real issue and all the smoke screens and bunny trails in the world won't change that nor give your argument any more validity than the near-fanboy anger of one who has to take personal shots because he doesn't like what is being said.

Think what you want, Leo.

Ron Lindeboom
creativecow.net



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Leo Ticheli
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 7:26:44 pm

It's not a smoke screen or anything of the sort. The original poster accused Red of being fraudulent; he wrote, "In my book, if you tell the customer that your product is ready and he pays, it is FRAUDULENT if it is not. I really don't care how great this camera is, but these guys have ZERO business ethics and customer service. "

Throwing around the term fraud is serious business.

What did this post accomplish? It seems to me the poster is suggesting that one should not purchase a Red camera because the company is both unethical and fraudulent.

I've been buying equipment for a long time and have run into very few vendors who were questionable; I've found Red to be a paragon of ethical and honest dealing.


Best regards,

Leo



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Michael Gleissner
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 7:34:26 pm

Leo, I 100% stand behind my post. If you tell a customer "Your camera is ready, send the balance and we ship it" and you do, and then it turns out that the specific camera is NOT there, it is fraudulent. Check the law if you are not sure.

MG



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Ron Lindeboom
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 7:39:15 pm

[Leo Ticheli] "I've been buying equipment for a long time and have run into very few vendors who were questionable; I've found Red to be a paragon of ethical and honest dealing."

Good. I am glad of that. I tend to think that they ARE an ethical company.

I personally subscribe to the belief that great companies are not made from not making mistakes but from what they do when they make one. I believe, as do others here, that RED made a mistake with this particular situation.

Those are "operative words": this particular situation.

In this particular situation, RED allowed their own words -- that the unit was ready so send your money and we will release it -- to become the basis for this user's ire to foment into a rage that made him arrive at the opinion that he was being fraudulently handled when circumstances prevailed that didn't allow RED to live up to their words.

Is that fraud in my book? No. But is it stupid to think that you can let these things foment and that there will be no repercussions from them -- especially from a bunch of users who are *really* looking forward to getting their hands on the thing? I think that is stretching patience to think that you can do this to customers and not have it create a backlash.

If you think it's okay, Leo, that is your business and your opinion. But according to Michael's opinion, he thinks that it is fraudulent treatment.

I think you both have stretched your opinions beyond that which most moderate human beings would see as reasonable.

You fail to understand that Michael has seen words misrepresent what is the actual outcome; you on the other hand, appear to think that people should find no displeasure in this when they are told a unit is ready, they send their money and then they find that the original statement is not true.

Most of us would not go to either the extreme that you espouse, not the one espoused by Michael.

Somewhere in the middle is the truth -- which is nearly always the way it is.

Ron Lindeboom


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Steve Wargo
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on May 1, 2008 at 5:22:05 am

[Leo Ticheli] "Steve Wargo, you're my pal, but you are all wet about Red's business practices. Have you actually done business with them? Do you have a Red camera on order? "

Whoa there Leo. I don't have to have done business with Red to understand that they have certain ongoing problems. if you really want my opinion, I feel as though they violated some serious SEC laws by how they went about financing their venture. Normally, when a company needs a few million dollars in cash to develop a product, they have a legal private or public offering.

The Red team created brochures and a website and then started an internet buzz on a product that none could resist. They took "deposits" that totaled over $4 million. Then, they set out to develop their unit. They claimed that they just wanted to get a real feel as to how many people really wanted to buy. I can see their point, except for one thing; They used the money for R&D. If they had put the cash into an escrow account and sent quarterly interest payments to the "deposit" holders, I would back them 100%. That's not what they did. They did offer refunds with interest but that money was only replaced with fresh money from new "deposits".

There have been NUMEROUS posts from Graham Nattress publicly thanking the "INVESTORS". Isn't this a major felony? I asked several attorneys over the past year and was told that it is. I asked my stockbroker and his eyes got huge.

But, who actually cares? After all, Martha Stewart's following is bigger than ever.



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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gary adcock
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on May 1, 2008 at 2:36:20 pm

[Steve Wargo] "There have been NUMEROUS posts from Graham Nattress publicly thanking the "INVESTORS". Isn't this a major felony? I asked several attorneys over the past year and was told that it is. I asked my stockbroker and his eyes got huge. "


It is not a crime in England where Graeme is from, nor in Canada where he lives.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Steve Wargo
on May 3, 2008 at 4:55:25 am




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Steve Wargo
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on May 3, 2008 at 4:59:08 am

[gary adcock] "It is not a crime in England where Graeme is from, nor in Canada where he lives."

Yep, in the eyes of RED enthusiasts, the RED crew can do no wrong. Shame on you, Gary.



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Michael Gleissner
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 4:47:19 pm

Leo, what I am presenting are the FACTS. And if they would not have specifically said that this SERIAL NO. is ready to ship, you could just call it a production delay. But saying "Hey your camera #xxx is ready to ship, send us the money" and NOT DELIVERING is unheard of. I am not chasing any company for any product if they treat customers that way.



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damian capello
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on May 2, 2008 at 9:23:28 am

Leo,

I am new to the cow. I have been told that the cows are very happy in California. So cheer up. It has also been said to me that there is many ways of dealing with problems. Your answers might not fix my problems. Leave the guy alone and btw you dont speek for Red...



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Steve Wargo
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 4:34:02 pm

[Michael Gleissner] "they informed us that "our" camera (serial #1328) "is ready" and would be ready to be shipped upon full payment. We sent the check."

Some have accused me of being unfriendly toward the "RED" camera and it's company.

What I've said is this:

1. "This camera could change everything. If it does what they say it will do, for the price, it's a wonderful thing."

2. "Their business practices and ethics stink".

I still stand by both statements. If they called Michael to tell him that his camera is READY and to send the money, they needed to send that camera within a week at the most. I can understand being buried in orders but it seems like this is just business as usual for them. Just because they are providing the most advanced product ever to hit our industry does not give them the right to do what they are so known for.

And, I really hate to say this, but I must: The people who are really excited about what the RED team does are far too eager to overlook what the RED team doesn't do.

Think about it, guys, if SONY did the same thing, you would be on the SONY forum screaming about it.

And, by the way, this forum, and all the others, are here to allow us to present both sides of the issue. If RED had called me this morning and said "Your camera's ready. Send the money", I would be extremely thankful for Michael's post.

Let's not condemn the poster without a thorough understanding about what happened here.

And, Michael, please fill out your profile with some contact info. Some others may want to contact you privately to discuss your situation.


Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Russell Lasson
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 10:22:37 pm

If I were Michael, I'd but up set too. But I don't think this problem is because RED is trying to pull a fast one on it's users by keeping their money for a while before delivering the camera.

Check out the official statement from RED:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=210692#post210692

The problem stems from their commitment from people who placed orders before you. Before NAB, many users were undecided. After they saw that RED really was delivering, they wanted their cameras. Evidently it was part of the deal that they could change their mind as to when they were "ready to buy".

I think that it was a bad organizational decision by RED to put off people who had put their money in. It's obvious that they're still learning how to do this (both the technical and organizational).

Once again, if I were in Michael's position, I'd be upset. At the same time, I'd have to respect that RED has been as open as they have been about the whole process (both successes and mistakes). I think they should have allowed the previous reservations to be filled after the existing orders with money paid were filled instead of bumping the ones who already paid.

One suggestion to Michael though, calling and yelling at them doesn't make them want to help you, even if it is their mistake.

Good luck.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Ron Lindeboom
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 11:24:11 pm

I couldn't agree more with your balanced viewpoint, Russell. Thank you.

There is a problem here but, like you, I do not believe that it is one of intent to defraud their customers. But I can and do understand Michael's point in all this and why it upsets him.

Like you, Russell, I believe that RED made a mistake and I hope that they will close the breach that allowed this to happen. I understand their commitment to those that had the earlier numbers that changed their minds and pushed out the order that was already paid for, but in my belief and I think it's one that most would understand: If you give a man a number and he pays and then someone with an earlier reservation number changes their mind and pays later, then to me, give it to the money that came in first and honor the promise made.

It will keep hard feelings at bay and it makes for a morally defensible policy.

That is my belief.

Ron Lindeboom


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Steve Wargo
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on May 1, 2008 at 4:48:36 am

[Ron Lindeboom] "give it to the money that came in first and honor the promise made. "

Yep! Jim Jennard has been a very successful businessman. This is why a lot of people have the confidence that he and his team will provide everything they said they would. However, the way they're going about some things leave room for doubt as to their use of common sense.

I've always been interested in the product from day 1 and have said all along that I will make a decision when everything works at the 100% level. Several trusted posters, such as Gary, Jerry and Leo have given Red the big thumbs up and I think that I can speak for others when I say that this is the verification that many of us were looking for. I would take their word for Red's capabilities without ever hearing a word from Red corporate. I never listen to sales guys, only happy users.

That being said, I think that the "Scarlet" is the camera that most Red enthusiasts should be buying and then later moving up to the "Big Gun". We'll buy a couple of those to put in our rental department without blinking an eye, when it works and when I can personally go pick it up, just to make sure that delivery will be as expected. After all, I've had truthful info from this forum from which to make my decision.




Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on Apr 30, 2008 at 11:39:58 pm

I am personally opposed to "oversee" any mishaps or issues tech companies bring to clients regardless of how small or big your budget /name is. On several occasions I have pointed out issues with the RED camera, workflow and software on the RED user forum, not to annoy people but to inform about my personal experiences in a professional environment with real deadline - paying clients and not just: "lets shoot at the park with my buddy's RED toy".

But I learned quickly that many RED users, owners and even just followers get EXTREMELY OFFENDED if one bit of what you mention criticizes RED Corp in any way. I even had to add to one of my posts: "RED is not Jesus second coming" and even ask a few Red members: "why do you get so touchy?" about any constructive criticism. Only one person reply professionally and objectively.

The funny part is that thousands of RED forum users are not even owners, neither they work with the camera in mainstream projects. The fact is that the RED camera is a great breakthrough in quality and budget, but just like Apple, Avid, DaVinci, Quantel, Discreet or Sony, RED sucks in a few key areas big time.And that is OK!

I am very happy to see Ron making this RED forum open to discussions for both pros and cons. That is what forums should be about as long as the reasons are valid and a professional level of integrity is kept.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Online Editor
Ph: 310.826.9199
AIM: stuart.colorist
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com

"HD, 2K & RED Post Production for Indies at Affordable Rates"



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Russell Lasson
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on May 1, 2008 at 1:18:39 am

[Stuart Ferreyra] ""RED is not Jesus second coming""

Hopefully Jesus won't have the same organizational problems that RED has. That could get really messy:)

Stuart and Ron, I agree with you both. I tried to be involved with another large volume forum on RED, but after just a few days there was just too much emotion and fluff. I'd much rather keep the signal up and the noise down here instead of getting caught up in all of the hype and letting it distort my sense of reality.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Tim Kolb
Re: Could not get a date AFTER CASHING $30k worth of checks
on May 1, 2008 at 2:45:14 am

It sounds like the RED people have had "one of those days" for a couple weeks now with QC issues, vendor issues...Mr Jannard has laid it out at their site.

I would simply accept his offer of a refund. I doubt that he personally examines the incoming checks and then cross-references them with what camera is for whom...somebody simply received the check and they did their job and put it in the bank.

cashing the check wasn't proof of incompetence or malice...it just means that the refund check needs to be all-inclusive.

They created a camera from scratch and they don't use any standardized parts in it...this kind of thing happens. If you are this early in the lineup (Michael) it means you put money down based on a balsa wood model (or are we into the list that saw the Jackson thing before depositing?)

...a little more time and uncertainty doesn't seem like a dealbreaker to me. Maybe it's not the most customer-service finesse ever demonstrated, but under the circumstances I'm not sure it's worth all this...



TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

CPO, Digieffects


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Steve Wargo
Hey Boomer
on May 1, 2008 at 5:38:29 am

We recently purchased two Sony EX-1 cameras out of the first 100 delivered to the US. We immediately ripped into that thing and posted everything that was wrong with it so that those behind us would get fair warning as to the cameras shortcomings. This also happened with the F-900 and the VariCam. There was little or no response aimed at defending Sony or Panasonic. We would not have stood for it.

I would personally like to thank you for having an open forum where the truth can come out. This is better than the U.S. justice system. This is real.




Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Michael Gleissner
Re: Hey Boomer
on May 1, 2008 at 8:30:21 am

Let's face it, RED has just a small window of opportunity. The "big guys" (SONY, JVC, ARRI etc.) will come up with something comparable in the next 6-12 months. So it is really important for these guys how they treat their customers.

CCD, CF storage media, wavelet codecs, this is all no magic, it is (or will be soon) off the shelf technology.

My experience until today is:

- broken delivery promise - not ONCE, not TWICE, not THREE TIMES, but FOUR TIMES

- claimed to have product ready (with specified serial number #1328 - "we have your camera ready")

- apparently sold the camera that was "ready" for me to SOMEBODY ELSE (but still cashed my check instead of HOLDING my checks)

- PROMPT and APOLOGETIC response (after posting the same post in reduser forum - although the moderator deleted it within minutes)

- nice call back from friendly person

- and now it is ACTIONS not WORDS that will decide

As I said, I would have cancelled in a heartbeat had I not ordered an underwater housing that is not refundable.

BTW, I have NO UNDERSTANDING for bad customer service. I was a VP at Amazon.com and there we know how important excellent customer service is.

Also I personally boycott PANASONIC products, they pulled the same crap on me with their P2 storage cards (announced that the larger cards would be available in a few weeks and then it took them forever). So if I read about a new PANASONIC camera? No thanks, too!

Michael
-------
Michael Gleissner - mgleiss@corp.bigfoot.com
Bigfoot Entertainment Inc.
401 Wilshire Blvd., 9th floor
Santa Monica CA 90401




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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Hey Boomer
on May 1, 2008 at 1:09:08 pm

Michael,

You can get your money back by asking for it seems to me, and keep your place in line leaving the deposit, right?

It's those passers on the delivery earlier that have caused this problem for you sounds like from Jim's post in the RED User forum, and there's little reason to believe this isn't the case.

I can attest that the buzz and the lines to get into RED's booth at NAB this year testify to true revolution they are leading. Attendance was down at the show this year seems like, but the interest in RED's booth didn't diminish at all. Long lines again this year just to enter the booth. I too was totally swamped showing the RED workflow in FCP in AJA's booth. The genuine interest is really something to behold.

At least RED is learning... no deposits being taken for Scarlet, Epic, or Red Ray.. until they are closer to delivery. They took deposits on RED ONE very early, and I think it's biting them now.. but they are learning.

I've never seen a more open company in the industry. Jim Jannard posts publicly in an Internet forum... when's the last time you saw Steve Jobs do that? True, they are not as big a company as Apple, but still... a billionaire CEO (or whatever his title is - they reflect their rebellion in their titles too) posting publicly doesn't happen every day.

The viral marketing they've done is truly as ground breaking as their product as is their revealing of their future roadmap. I think that when you are starting a revolution, things are never going to be totally smooth sailing don't think. Remember Valley Forge?

All that said though, I certainly can see where you're upset. But hey, get your money back; they will gladly give it to you I'll bet.

Sincerely feeling your pain, believing that this bump in the road is nothing more than that, and still holding to the belief that RED is leading a revolution,

Jerry






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Tim Kolb
Re: Red complaints
on May 1, 2008 at 2:53:46 pm

Why don't you propose that J.J. buy your underwater housing as part of the deal? He could probably get it sold again to one of the remaining reservation holders.

I'm not an apologist for RED at all BTW, in case anyone wonders...

I was personally weary of the RED hype 6 mos. before anyone had a chance to actually shoot with one.

They are quick to describe the virtues of their camera relative to anyone else's, but cried 'foul' when cameras 1-25 were immediately put into various private comparison tests after over a year of competitor manufacturers having to compare their shipping products to nothing but propaganda, balsa wood and photographs of prototypes with code names that produced test results that we were told about by RED alone for months.

Why is someone who watched all this happen and then paid money to this company surprised that there was some manufacturing and delivery date snafus and that their complaint post was deleted from their website forum?

RED Camera happens to be a company that is completely new to this market and this business and this is the first product they've ever developed or sold.

Now...all that said, those who gambled and bought a RED by putting 1000.00 down very early in the development process bought into the whole "RED revolution" and everything that comes with it.

If what you want is a completely new paradigm (geez I hate that word), a revolution is what you want I guess...and certainly revolutions bring about change that is often a good thing. However, revolutions are messy and revolutionaries are typically completely committed to their cause, reactive, loosely organized, and rarely foresee the collateral issues that will be involved with, or result from their venture.

I think that RED can certainly be criticized for lots of things, but let's be careful about accusing them of unethical business practices. My production business had 10+ employees in the 90s and I almost never handled an incoming check, I had a staff member that took care of that end of things. I'm sure in what is a larger staff than that at RED camera, the same is true, and the employee who cashes checks isn't the same employee who deals with manufacturing QC problems I'd bet...so once again, cashing the check doesn't establish any specific intent of any kind. It's a mechanical business function.

I'm all for calling the whole reservation defer/not defer merry-go-round that RED instituted a really naive business decision, but let's be real here. J.J. could just buy his own island and tell everyone else to stuff it...he doesn't have to be dishonest to scrape together a little cash.

"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." is, I believe the sig line in the founders posts on his own website.

Caveat emptor people...oh, and exspectata ut revolution.




TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

CPO, Digieffects


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Michael Gleissner
Re: Red complaints
on May 1, 2008 at 3:20:08 pm

Guys,

where the rubber meets the road is really simple: Can you DELIVER on your promises, and are you TREATING YOUR CUSTOMERS well. That's what counts for me.

What this camera really is - it is evolution of today's available technology. CCDs and CMOS imagers are becoming better, it is not a "mysterium" - it's call improvement of technology. Record on solid state instead of tape-based media - happening everywhere, in consumer cameras.

A "revolution"? Or "keep my place in line"? Come on, guys, I really don't care about that, I care about a company LIVING UP TO ITS PROMISES.

What if you encounter a problem? What if a pixel on your CCD craps out? If a company does not live up to "promises" they are making when SELLING, what can you expect from service down the road? "Oh, we got your order for the spare part, you are currently #10426 in line and you can expect your camera to be repaired in 18 months"?

And I believe 99% of the customers feel the same. It is $30k I spent, I was promised that they HAVE the camera and then they sold it to somebody else. If that is the "revolution" you are talking about, then - thanks, but no thanks! I rather wait for the "big guys" to come out with their answer, I bet that these are in the prototyping state already (and maybe have better improvements like multiple CF slots in the camera body - SONY, JVC etc. are you listening?)

MG



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Gunleik Groven
Re: Red complaints
on May 1, 2008 at 9:05:35 pm

Hi

Michael, I don't question your experience, but mine has been different.

After taking delivery of my cam in March, I have now ordered two more...

The dialogue with RED during the ordering process is not the deciding part for this choice, but I must say it was very good at all times.

Brent took immediately care of any confusion and Hoover was really very helpfull.

Just my 2c

Cheers

Gunleik Groven


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Steve Sherrick
Re: Red complaints
on May 10, 2008 at 5:07:32 am

Michael,

I understand your frustration, but I assure you a call into Jim will help get things back on track for you. I'm not saying it will get you the camera delivered tomorrow, but I'm sure he'll be open to hearing your thoughts on the matter and will do what he can to make sure you are refunded the money. Jim has openly admitted they are learning as they go. They have shaken things up with the launch of this camera and now they are refining some things.

I've had the camera for a while now and they have been easy to deal with. Sure, we went through much longer delays than what you are experiencing, and I'm still waiting on a couple of things, including the EVF, but we're on the bleeding edge here. You mentioned other players getting involved and sure it will happen, but give RED credit. They got this ball rolling. No doubt about it, Sony was years away from doing this, but they probably have stepped up the efforts due to RED.

I know there are a lot of people that come to RED's defense, often referred to as fanboyism, but keep in mind that those of us with cameras are in the trenches, learning everyday, attempting to master this camera. I am both excited and a realist about it.

Give Jim a call and work directly with RED to resolve your concerns. That to me is the best approach when dealing with these kind of issues. A lot more gets done that way.

Regards,
Steve

Steve Sherrick




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Michael Gleissner
Re: Red complaints
on May 10, 2008 at 5:56:32 am

Hi Steve,

I have to say that after my complaints, RED has stepped up to the plate and constantly updated me. Yesterday I got an email that the camera was shipped. So I am a happy camper again if the thing actually arrives.

Looking forward to it! ;-)

MG

-------
Michael Gleissner - mgleiss@bigfoot.com.hk
Bigfoot Entertainment Inc.
401 Wilshire Blvd., 9th floor
Santa Monica CA 90401
310-230-5698h, 310-990-9606m, 310-388-1091f


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Russell Lasson
Re: Red complaints - Camera Shipped
on May 10, 2008 at 2:45:39 pm

Glad to hear that they stepped it up on their end. Let us know what your thoughts are on the camera after you've played with it for a while.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Lee Dashiell
Re: Red complaints - Camera Shipped
on Jul 11, 2008 at 11:52:39 pm

I can't imagine that they are not doing everything possible to get these cameras in the hands of buyers. I have paid my deposits and been issued a serial number, if there are delays, I'll just deal with them.

http://www.varicamcrew.com
Providing Broadcast HD Camera Crews in SC
South Carolina HDX900 Varicam Crew
DP/CamMate Crane Owner/Operator
803-743-7680


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Twann Hudson
Re: Red complaints - Camera Shipped
on Jul 16, 2008 at 3:40:49 am

Michael Gleissner


have you received your camera? - after reading your frustration (I'm sure this brings up some similar displeasing scenario for everyone)- you must let us share in the victory. (smile)

the real fun begins when the program loads


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