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Jason Flor
RED Wait Times
on Apr 29, 2008 at 7:11:40 pm

Hi all, Anybody have a rough idea what the delivery wait time is(after you place your order) these days on The RED?


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Clark Dunbar
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 29, 2008 at 8:45:51 pm

At NAB -> orders taken were being told about 4 to 5 months. Should be able to get confirmation later today for you from several friends who ordered at NAB.



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 29, 2008 at 9:48:37 pm

You could call them for an estimate, but I heard last night that someone was told it would be early/mid October... The sooner you order, the sooner you get though!

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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Clark Dunbar
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 29, 2008 at 10:42:19 pm

the order at the RED booth/NAB 2 weeks ago -> is due for delivery aprrox. the end of August to mid-Sept.



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Jason Flor
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 29, 2008 at 10:54:11 pm

Thanks. I figured it was around 6 mos. And yes the sooner I order the sooner I get it but my business partner insists on talking to all the Sony-Panny-Ikegami-Grass Valley sales guys to confirm what I've been saying for weeks-- Red is a Paradigm shift both in price and picture quality.



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Uli Plank
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 30, 2008 at 6:26:39 am

Does your partner really expect them to confirm that? Red is killing their business (as long as we are talking cinematography here). Even Panavision seems to be getting nervous these days.

We received our RedOne about week ago (after more than one year of waiting) and if you are into cinematic style fiction work, it's a no brainer. The best price/performance ratio you can get today. Period.

If you are into documentary, news and the like, have a look at all the Sonys, Panas and the like out there or wait for Scarlet (probably more than a year from now).

But Sony F35 ? Arri D-21 ? Dalsa, Grass Valley, Panavision …

How much money do you have to waste?

My two cents,

Uli




Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Jason Flor
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 30, 2008 at 12:30:50 pm

Hi Uli,

No I meant that when they give their sales pitch and start talking prices- 45-50 thousand when you add the glass, viewfinder (viewfinder?!!) etc., it will quickly become apparent that the RED is the better deal all round.

I do everything from sticks only comercials to handheld docs. I would guess you advise looking at the others because of the weight and lens issues with the RED?

Scarlett looks interesting but 25 years in this business means alarm bells go off when I see the Scarlett price point. At $3K with lens it's like their HAS to be a catch! Maybe just another paradigm shift??..lol




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Jerry Hofmann
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 30, 2008 at 1:55:05 pm

Make no mistake. RED IS a paradigm shift. Totally. If EVERY manufacturer of Pro cameras isn't running scared and creating an answer to RED, it's only because they have their head in the sand. If every pro shooter not needing live broadcast isn't considering RED, they too have their head in the sand. Is it for every shoot? No. Is it for 90% of them? Yes.

In the 30+ years I've been involved in this industry, I've never seen a bigger paradigm shift. RED is shaking EVERYTHING up. Production and Post... 3k RAW at 180fps burst mode for 3k??? PLEEZE. If you don't see that as a huge shift in price/performance, you're simply not paying attention. 4k files where an editor can cut 75% of the picture OUT and STILL have full quality pixel for pixel 1080 HD???? Com'on! Keeping the look of film with this camera is EASY... it doesn't require 4k editing, it doesn't require even 2k editing.. you can transcode the 4k RAW to anything you want and it will STILL look like you shot film.

I'm going to create a DVD on the post workflow for RED, and will include some RAW shots to play with. Once you see what you can do with RED files, you're gonna be hooked... You will see the light. Yep, it's a paradigm shift alright.

I know I sound a bit like a fan-boy, but hey, anybody giving us the fabulous look easily achievable with RED, AND make it affordable to most any professional gets my vote.

Jerry


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Jason Flor
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 30, 2008 at 3:33:45 pm

We've been at the mercy of Sony and to a lesser extent Panasonic, with their half-truth specs and bizarre pricing schemes for so many years that just the openness and easy access to information of the RED people is enough to push me over to their side. Repair is a bit of a concern- don't like the idea of FedExing the camera to California and then having to rent until they get to it. Although if enough people buy perhaps maintenance and repair places will start springing up in the major centers.

We also do editing and the workflow is a bit different and will take a little getting used to. We are still confused about which Kona to buy and which montiors we need but I'm sure it'll all become clear, like I said the info is out there you just have to find it. And if you do that DVD please let us know here, I'll be first in line for it.

jas



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 30, 2008 at 4:05:54 pm

Today, you need a Kona 3 to edit 2k and monitor it via an HD monitor. Kona will crop the 2k to HD..

The workflow is confusing I know.. it's because it's got a lot of ways to approach it, and what's best depends on what you're end product will be. Editing 2k in FCP with a Kona 3 and HD monitor is likely to be the workflow that most use I'll wager. You can import the proxies from the RED camera and edit immediately, and the Kona will add a LUT to the party so you can do a 'best light' correction to the RED footage while you edit (remember it's RAW, not processed yet - which is a good thing IMHO). Then the procedure now is to send to Color or use the CC 3-Way for the real deal color correction. It's much like a film workflow in many respects, sans the film. That said, it sounds a lot more difficult than it is. Grading the RED footage is fun actually, like finding treasure hidden in the unprocess footage. and it's really a snap to make it look fab.

Jerry




Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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gary adcock
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 30, 2008 at 4:13:29 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "Is it for every shoot? No. Is it for 90% of them? Yes."

I could not disagree more.

The RED One in it's current state is really only the perfect tool for maybe 20-25% of all production. This is a Film Style camera system and needs to be treated accordingly, there are any number of things RED is not a wise choice for at this time. Long form Docs, Live production, Run and Gun TV shooting, Reality, News, Events, Sports are all examples of the where there are currently better tools for production today.

Now if you shoot tabletop, Music videos, theatricals, episodic TV, spots, promos etc. Red is an easy transition from your film style shooting workflow, so RED is Ideal for many of these users.

Saying that RED is for 90% of users overlooks the needs and requirements that many have.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Michael Hancock
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 30, 2008 at 5:04:28 pm

[gary adcock] "Saying that RED is for 90% of users overlooks the needs and requirements that many have."

It may be premature to speculate given the limited info available, but do you suppose this is what Scarlet is for? The bulk of current videographer's business?

Perhaps Red ONE maintains the film style of shooting, while Scarlet is designed for more run and gun, small shop, one camera with a small/no crew shoot? I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

Michael.





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gary adcock
Re: RED Wait Times
on May 1, 2008 at 1:52:12 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Perhaps Red ONE maintains the film style of shooting, while Scarlet is designed for more run and gun, small shop, one camera with a small/no crew shoot? I'd be interested in your thoughts on it. "


Good observation.
kinda like the Video Ipod and the ipod Nano, you have one, but you need the other one occasionally -so you buy them both....

Please do not get me wrong - this is a major breakthru in technology, but there are still any number of things that still need to be worked out in the RED workflow, and those issues are being dealt with, and all the while Scarlet is still a year away, plenty of time for adjustments.

People can claim they work in 4K all they want, but the reality of RED is Less than 5% of the people using the cameras are finishing with 4K material, The vast Majority of the content is being handled as 2k or 1080 for finishing and delivery, and I DO NOT expect that to change anytime soon.






gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Jerry Hofmann
Re: RED Wait Times
on May 1, 2008 at 2:44:44 pm

Agreed... HD is going to be the delivery for now... there is talk of the beginnings of 4k consumer TV sets... it's gotta be a ways off, but it's beginning...

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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Jason Flor
Re: RED Wait Times
on Apr 30, 2008 at 5:16:01 pm

"Today, you need a Kona 3 to edit 2k and monitor it via an HD monitor. Kona will crop the 2k to HD"

Even if I convert to prores and am not looking to output anything higher than 1080p to DVD?



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: RED Wait Times
on May 1, 2008 at 2:06:12 pm

Yes and no... you can use a Matrox MXO on a 23" Cinema display to play the canvas at 100% size on. Can't "full screen it" but it's a poor man's way of monitoring for grading in FCP editing 2k brought into FCP via RED Alert or Cine with a best light done in that process.

When you log and transfer in FCP, what results is prores, we're still talking 2k files from the 4k or 1k files from 2k... not HD files.

The Kona 3 is a great way to deal with the post workflow. It can add a LUT to the output sent to a HD monitor cropping the 2k in real time, and thus relieve you from rendering a best light for editorial. i.e. import the proxies and edit them directly, watching the external monitor which will look a lot better (with the LUT in use by the Kona) than looking at the files you'll be seeing in the Canvas (no one light added in log and transfer). Further, you can create DPX sequences, keeping a lot more color information to work with, and use the Kona's LUT to monitor to HD with that LUT added. This workflow is better but it also requires a fast array to deal with... the frames will be about 11mb each! that's 240MB/sec throughput you''ll need if you've shot 24fps... More if 30fps.

You could also use RED Cine to transcode the files to HD directly, then the Matrox would allow for full screen playback on a CD... Since delivery will be a DVD, it's pretty workable.

But either way, you need to be able to view on a video monitor which is setup properly, because you need to grade the shot in the end, and that requires the Kona 3 if you don't transcode to HD in the first place... The Matrox isn't going to be as useful in a RED workflow as the Kona would be... it can't deal directly with 2k nor 1k, and if using it with a computer display, you'll not see true black because the displays can't show it to you. Using it externally with a Video Monitor is better than with a computer display however, but the source MUST be HD, not 2k...

Yeah, I know, clear as mud.

Jerry


Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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Jason Flor
Re: RED Wait Times
on May 1, 2008 at 6:36:53 pm

It is complicated. I think I may forget about AJA products altogether and go with the Black Magic Decklink HD extreme which will allow HDMI monitoring and seems to have taken the best features of both the AJA io HD and the Kona3 for a hell of a lot less money. I want to monitor on a 1080P plasma. I just can't justify a full SDI monitoring system at this time. We are changing over both our editing and camera so it is a big expense. My clients are not as fussy as high end TV commercial or feature people. They just want to see it the way it'll look at home on the flatscreen or full frame on a computer screen or projector at some trade show.

Here is Black Magic's pitch...I'd be interested in what you think: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/




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Ben Holmes
Re: RED Wait Times
on May 4, 2008 at 6:54:09 pm

Jason

For half the price of a Kona 3 you can get the Blackmagic Multibridge Pro with HDMI in/out, Dual Link output etc. etc. A no-brainer for me, despite Kona's good relationship with RED - BM have always kept up with new releases, and right now my BM MPB (!) will allow me to monitor 2:1 2K letterboxed, so pixel for pixel - and it looks great.

I also use Kona 3's all the time, so not dissing an excellent product, but it sounds like the BM option might be better for you...

Ben



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gary adcock
Re: RED Wait Times
on May 5, 2008 at 11:35:00 am

[Ben Holmes] " For half the price of a Kona 3 you can get the Blackmagic Multibridge Pro with HDMI in/out, Dual Link output etc. etc. A no-brainer for me, despite Kona's good relationship with RED - BM have always kept up with new releases,"


at http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/98/869671

AJA announced Kona 3 hardware support for the RED Code inside of FCS2, and that is not something the BMD product will be able to do, since most of their features are handled in software, not a good long term plan when REDCode is as computationally hungry as it is for processing.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Jerry Hofmann
Re: RED Wait Times
on May 1, 2008 at 2:36:08 pm

I agree that a run and gun camera, the RED ONE is not. Many Docs can be shot on mounts,... depends on subject matter I'd think.. quite frankly, shooting film style is more common in my experience than run and gun stuff, so maybe my viewpoint is colored by this.

However... the business video industry, Music video industry etc... is larger and represents a lot more shoots than all of the categories of production you've listed I think. For every company out there with 500 or more employees, there's productions being shot film style for.

That's a lot more shoots than broadcast destined material I'd think... for every live TV show, there's likely 20 business video shoots happening. That's the larger market. Scarlet will enlarge the RED market no doubt... a run and gunner.. all that will be left is Live TV, News.. sports.? Superfast turn around stuff...(event videography excluded) Not much in numbers compared to the rest of the shoots out there. Heck, I've one client here in Denver that produces at LEAST 100 projects a year. Coors has 4 edit bays here, Lookheed? something like 8 bays... these are just two companies out of the millions world wide that are doing much the same. Most all of it's shot film style.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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