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I'm never shooting video again.

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Jerry Hofmann
I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 3:44:20 pm

RED RULES.

After all the years of folks 'trying' to get a film look from video cameras, trying anything in fact, it's a done deal with a RED camera. It's look rivals 35mm film (even in 2k). In fact I think we're seeing the end of film acquisition.

I was honored to talk to the RED user group at NAB, and to introduce Ted Schilowitz at the FCP Supermeet in front of (count 'em) 1500+ FCP users. Apple announced over a MILLION FCP registered FCP users. Man, at the first of these meets I think there was about 50 people... LOL, we've come a long way baby! Also honored to show the betas of the RED workflow with AJA's Kona 3 and RED's new log and transfer plugin on the NAB show floor. I've returned to Denver now with no voice at all. I was SWAMPPED by folks wanting to see the way to edit this new format. (Log and Transfer plugin was just released in beta too if you're interested). Further honored to see the demo reels for Mammoth HD I did shown all over the floor in like 20 booths, and all day Thursday in the NAB theatre and it's 100 screens.

The gist of what I said to the RED and FCP crowd was this: I've been in video for longer than I want to consider, but in those years I've seen 3 watershed events that truly changed the industry. First was 3/4" video tape machines. They started a business video renaissance. This business is now larger than Hollywood for sure... Second was AVID. Changed everything. Going from linear to non-linear eidting was a no brainer for us all. I bought serial number 004 right off the floor at NAB 1989...

Third was a 1-2 punch by FCP and DV. Working in affordable higher end happened, and the look from DV cameras for 3k rivaled Betacam SP 40k+ of the previous year. A watershed event for sure.

Now? RED. Who in their right mind would buy HD if they can shoot RED, and it works in their workflow? It's another no brainer folks. For likely around 5-6k next year (by the time you've bought the accessories for Scarlet), you'll be able to shoot 3k... Scarlet will just rock the whole industry I think. Looks like film, sells as film, cost? CHEAP. Consider this... the cost of shooting 35mm on a feature film shooting 50:1 is about 1 million bucks by the time you've rented cameras, bought film stock and done a one-light to videotape for editorial... you could buy 15 RED ONE setups for that. and use them next shoot too!

But there's a "hidden" advantage to shooting RED instead of film. Time. You can see the shoot right on the set in real time and it saves those 'safety" takes that you end up doing in film. All ya need is an Io HD and a MacBook Pro running FCP with an appropriate HD monitor...I think it should speed up a traditional film shoot by about 40%. This is a savings of Millions of dollars on a feature for sure.

Is it for every shoot? Nope. Not for live broadcast, and likely not for mulit-camera shoots in general (however, Peter Jackson has purchased 10 RED ONE's)... but for anything else? You bet. It does have a bit of a learning curve, but with Scarlet coming down the pike, it's over for video shoots for me. Scarlet will be the FIRST camera I've ever actually owned. (I've rented them throughout my career in the past) RED footage won me totally over during the testing I did for the NAB show, and man was I tempted to talk about it, but the ol' NDA's kept me silent for the past couple of months.

So now that the cat is outta da bag, let me say that working in RED is amazing. So wonderful a format. If you've ever worked in RAW photography, working in RED is similar. It's RAW photography at up to 120 fps! Fixing an overexposure is truly amazing... could NEVER do that with video. Making it look like film is also a no brainer. It just does.

There are few times I've been this excited about a new technology, and this one has me feeling like a kid at Christmas. WAY fun.

Jerry



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Shane Ross
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 4:24:36 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "Who in their right mind would buy HD if they can shoot RED, and it works in their workflow?"

Good caviat..."and it works in their workflow." Those of un in TV land who don't need film like pictures. Sports, news, even many MANY documentaries...and stuff with a fast turnaround.

I agree with all of what you said when it pertains to shooting feature and independent film, and possibly moving into dramatic TV shows. But since there are TONS of reality shows, documentaries, home improvement, talk shows...plenty of television that is NOT narrative nor wanting to be film like, there will always be a need for other formats of HD.

I doubt that SURVIVORMAN would walk around with 4 Scarlets in his bag...and all that is needed to offload that footage...while he is trudging thru some jungle.

Personally I am amazed that RED is trying to tout Scarlet as a $3000 camera. Sure, if you don't want to see what you are shooting. They have to add the basic accessories, THEN announce the price...like you just did. $6000 or so. Rivals EX1 and Panasonic P2 at that point...so many people might replace them or get the Scarlet instead. But for me those are B cameras to the F950 and the Varicam...and all the HD shows I am working on shoot on those.

And knowing Hollywood and their want to stick with the familiar...and how they have to be dragged KICKING AND SCREAMING from it...I will be stuck with those formats for a while.

But thanks for the announcment...it is very exciting. When they get it all working.


Shane



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Graeme Nattress
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 3:09:41 am

Shane, there's a built in 4.8" LCD panel, so no need to spend more money to see what is happening. The larger LCD bolted on the top is to show how configurable the camera is, not what is needed to shoot with. I'd expect, and I'm guessing here, the only thing you'd need on top the $3k price (and I hope that will be a < $3K price) is a compact flash card to shoot onto.

As for "speed" of shooting / editing, there's a RGB record in the spec if you don't want to do RAW, not that the Quicktime movies that point to the RAW are slow or uneditable.

Emma, we're serving serials #1501 through #1750 now, so that's a lot of RED Digital Cinema cameras out in the field, being used on all manner of projects.

Dan, I'm sorry you think that RAW is a PITA. On a DSLR, if you shoot JPEG you're probably loosing at least a stop, maybe two or more (depending on camera / lighting / settings) of dynamic range and some picture quality. I know plenty of professional photographers who won't shoot anything other than RAW, because RAW gives the most creative options and quality, and now with Lightroom and Aperture, it's not slow, and not hard. It's certainly not a PITA. I not a professional photographer, but I shoot professional quality images for fun and education. I've never shot JPEG (other than on a point and shoot where there's no option). RAW also means you can take benefits in RAW conversion technology that are improving all the time. The earliest RED owners can get a better image from their footage today, than they could when they got the camera. I could take our development footage and re-process and make it look better than ever. You can't do that with video or JPEG.

Yes Jerry, shooting with RED is quite easy indeed. I certainly have a good laugh to myself every time I use a CF card reader rather than an expensive boat anchor of a video recorder. And that sentiment applies to other cameras that use a similar memory card based workflow also. I disagree that the images look like 35 though. 35 has a special feel with the grain and other stuff that RED does not have. In that respect we look closer to 4k scans of 65 (as I've seen played back to back with RED footage on our 4k projector).

Aaron, there are lots of workflow options, and yes, that can be confusing, but it's better than being locked into very few options.

A fully admit not all aspects of the workflow are perfect yet, but they are getting vastly better all the time, and are more than usable today. I seem to remember it taking a couple of years before DV had all the kinks worked out of it in FCP.....

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 10:03:28 pm

Hey, I don't care. I love the images, and they sure don't look like video. Fools most eyes for sure.

That said, you still could add grain to it... then I'd suggest it would fool everyone. Doesn't matter in actuality. RED is a watershed event and I've only seen 3 others in my 30+ year old career in this industry.

Jerry

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Emma McNeill
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 5:16:57 pm

I don't really see the advantage of this thing. Looks like a lot of proprietary equipment, un-proven equipment at that, that provides a small amount of image benefit over the EX1/EX3 or a dozen other cameras.

$250 for a "red-grip". If one of our guys said we needed that we would certainly be telling them to get a grip all right!

Filming is like stills photography, it's not the gear, it's the shooter and until Red get some kit on the ground that everybody can buy/rent and test then it might as well be vaporware.

Emma



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Dan Brockett
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 5:28:45 pm

Jerry:

Thanks for the report from the front lines. I must say that after attending the first LA RED User Group meeting at Kappa Video last month, I am sold on the RED camera itself, but the RED workflow seemed very buggy and glitchy. I know that it is sorting itself out and will be streamlined probably by the end of this year or early next year, but I asked several other producers there, "if you were shooting a narrative television show or indie feature TODAY, would you use this camera and workflow?" All of us agreed that TODAY, we wouldn't. The editors we spoke with all related tales of potholes in the road with both the RED files and the proxy files, huge rendering times to convert, etc.

I am also a still photographer (semi-pro - I do get paid for some of my photography) and I can tell you, I never shoot RAW because it's a PITA. I shoot JPEGs as do most of the professional photographers I know. It all depends on the situation. If I were shooting an editorial portrait and knew I was only going to take 20-30 images, RAW is great, but when I am out shooting hundreds of images at a time as I often do, RAW is too time consuming. I would think that it will be similar with the RED workflow, it all depends on your budget, crew, time, etc. For certain projects, it will be a Godsend, but for others, too much of a PITA.

My .02,

Dan

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Nate Stephens
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 6:08:08 pm

"if you were shooting a narrative television show or indie feature TODAY, would you use this camera and workflow?"

New gear that defines chapters in our Professional Life, are great,

.. being a sell it, write it, shoot it, edit it guy..

I can dream about the client that would pay me to shoot the Red..... but if the Red, moderately outfitted is priced at $30K, or the Scarlet at 6K than it puts a lot of pressure on the just announced gear at NAB... .. So wouldn't it be great if the new Varicam 3700 P2 was priced to give the Red grief.. talk about nice specs for new gear.... and better yet Varicam and P2 have a proven FCP workflow.....

Ya gotta luv the new toys... is it Christmas yet..


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 6:11:34 pm

Well, one of the new workflows I showed on the floor are very similar to P2 import. Install the RED "Log and Transfer" plugin, and in the prefs of FCP's log and transfer tool, RED shows up to transcode to ProRes or ProRes HQ. If P2 import doesn't bother you, neither will RED import. It's much the same and it's just slightly slower. Most won't even notice the difference. 2k ProRes is only 6% larger a file than 1080. All you folks out there transcoding to it from HDV will get this... it's about the same feeling as 1080 ProRes post/wise.

True, you have to grade it. But hey, you should have been grading everything you shoot no matter what camera was used. I've never seen a video clip not be improved with a bit of color correction.

IT's VERY DOABLE NOW... People aren't getting it yet don't think. 90% of all production away from live stuff could easily be done now with RED in FCP via that ProRes import feature just released. Takes QT 7.4.5 and FCP 6.0.3 with the REDCODE plugins from RED (they are free BTW).

I did this very workflow for the NAB tapes... it's fast, it works, it's wonderful.

Anyone thinking RED isn't ready for primtime, is missing the fact that it already is, and there are several features being shot now in it, some already in post, more on the way, TV? dunno, but anything scripted and shot cinema style i.e. single camera, will be as easy as a P2 workflow. If that's not in your workflow... shoot video. I won't be doing that unless it's the only way to get the job done though. Can't get over how easy and fast it is to get RED to look like the best images you've ever seen. This isn't slower by enough for it to offset the look you end up with... no way.

Until you've tried it, you don't really get it. Copping, resizing, re-framing 4k is a miracle. You can get cu's from wide angles folks, and STILL have full res HD in the end.

Your pictures will look like 35. THERE ISN'T A VIDEO CAMERA IN THE WORLD THAT RIVALS 35 for less than a new home... end of story. RED rivals 35... for a LOT less than a new home. Scarlet for less than nice motorcycle guys... You want a pro looking HD tape? One that looks like you spent a zillion dollars to shoot? RED's the answer.

Jerry

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Aaron Neitz
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 6:25:59 pm

RED really is amazing stuff. In a way it's even sharper and more detailed than 35 since there's no gate jitter, no grain, nothing other than pixel for pixel data.

The post workflow is still a bit all over the place - but it's more a function of the sheer amount of options you have to convert out footage than anything else.



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 6:34:29 pm

I think that because the post workflow has SOOOO many options, it confuses people... But the Log and Transfer to ProRes workflow should be pretty familiar to most, and is exactly like working in P2 actually. Takes about 3 minutes to import a 1 minute clip right now, but hey, it's just as fast as ProRes HD in FCP once done. It's an improvement over the proxy workflows because it doesn't require a really fast mac to edit the footage. It could be transcoded on an intel machine, then edited on a G5 dual even... or even a MacBook Pro etc... it's very doable now, and it's not really a slowish workflow at all.

It does have to be graded though. It's raw photography. BUT that adds options you NEVER had in video, and quite frankly, everyone should be grading their footage no matter what shot it...

Jerry

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Aaron Neitz
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 6:43:35 pm

totally, the Log and Transfer option is going to be AWESOME.



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 6:56:56 pm

If you've not seen the footage, then how can you judge the benefit? Check it out in a web stream anyway here: http://www.mammothhd.com/MHD_RED5A.html

This footage was shown all over the floor at NAB this year... I got a ton of complements on it.. I did the grading and the edit. It was fast using the ProRes HQ import workflow. Grading it was a snap (didn't take longer than video, actually took less time because it's so responsive and predictable). It's not hard, nor is it particularly time consuming as long as you know how. (there's the gotcha, you have to learn to color correct if you've not done it in the past and relied on the substandard color processing done in video cameras). Don't know of any series TV that doesn't go thru grading, video or film actually.. they all do already, so don't see where this will be a slower workflow actually... if they aren't being graded, they are very low end..

It's huge Emma... it's like 35.. finishing in 4k is doable in Scratch, and this can be printed to film... (so can 2k for that matter) there's no ex series nada that will compare to the look. Not even close. This stuff fools everyone. It looks like 35mm. not 16, not nice video attempting to look like film... it looks like 35mm. Ever wondered why your stuff doesn't look like a Hollywood feature? With RED it will.

This camera will be so obliquitous within a couple of years, (there's to be 5000+ RED ONE cameras in the field by the end of this summer alone) that whether or not you like the idea of grading footage, if you're a post house, you'd better get ready to do it. there's going to be a HUGE number of shoots in RED. There already are. Just try to rent one in LA.. they are all booked... there's a reason too... it's the look you simply cannot get from video, and it costs piles of money less than shooting film. It's a crop you simply can't get away with shooting HD. It's better than HD, it's bigger than HD, it color corrects finer than HD etc... it's better. If you don't believe me, rent one and try it... it's going to blow your mind when you can fix over exposure... even fix over exposure with secondaries and not touch the rest of the exposure. Try that with video... it simply can't be done when the processing was done in camera.

My images mean something to me, and if I can get the look of 35 for the cost of a run of the mill HD camera, I'm done. If it takes longer to ingest, so be it. It's not that slow now (with the log and transfer plugin just released by RED), and faster macs will make it faster, updated software will too, but for now? it's fast enough for just about anybody who is shooting single camera and is editing the show, delivering in HD or SD... Kona 3 does a LUT for editorial before you send to Color for the real deal... or even use the CC 3way, but Color rocks...

Jerry

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Ben Holmes
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 8:38:08 pm

Jerry

Welcome to the future - come on in!

A couple of years ago I showed a friend (who is a talented camera operator and now a commercial DP) a story about RED on a gadget blog. It all sounded kind of implausible at the time, but there was big money behind it and they seemed so SINCERE.

A week later I saw him again and my friend had put down a deposit on the camera. It was a fully refundable $1000 - he figured it was worth the 'not really a' risk. He spends a lot of his time shooting video with Pro35 adapters etc., and just wanted to be able to get the film look, with film lenses. He didn't really care about the 4K. Sure, it seemed to future-proof the camera, and he thought it might open up new avenues to him, but as he said for $17,500, if it shot good looking 1080p with 35mm depth of field it was still a bargain...

Fair to say he owes me a beer now - he took delivery of camera number six hundred and something a couple of months ago - long before most of the hire companies here got theirs. He makes extra hiring his to them until their cameras arrive!

As soon as we started testing it, it was clear the camera was something special. We had spent over a year watching test stills posted, and they looked great. Seeing them move was something else. Even the stock RED lens and accessories were excellent, and cost a lot less than many others - such as ARRI! The poster who complained about £250 handles misses the point here, and has obviously never shopped for film accessories - most of REDs are a steal, especially the glass.

He has some high profile commercial work coming up for it now - and I assist with the post workflow and sometimes on set for him. On set with CF cards, it's very similar to swapping mags on a film camera, doesn't really break the flow. He also has the RED Drive for continuous shooting. Backing up on set is essential. One thing is certain - this ISN'T video to shoot. It is a camera with 35mm depth and focus requirements, it's heavy (but shoulderable nonetheless). These problems will be allieviated (eg. focus) with Scarlet and with Epic (which is more powerful but lighter apparently). Oh yeah - and a year after he bought his camera, if he wants to upgrade to Epic, the new 5K camera, they'll give him FULL NEW COST ($17,500) towards the more expensive Epic. Unbelieveable, and unprecedented in the pro world.

What about post? Yup, there are some kinks, but really not so many now. If we shoot 4k, FCP right now will allow me to import using log and transfer as 2K files - not 16x9 yet, but 2:1. I can resize when I'm done to 16:9 when we do the final export. In the meantime, my Blackmagic multibridge (as well as the Kona's of course) play back the 2:1 2K files perfectly on my 1080p monitor. The downsized 2k files look AMAZING. Better than anything I have ever had the pleasure of working with. I can apply a 'look' to the RAW footage in log and transfer I have set in REDALERT, the free software RED provide for outputting DPX sequences.

RED also provide - for free! - a cut-down version of Assimilate's Scratch called REDCINE. This allows me (via third party software called Crimson) to cut my shots in FCP (via the proxy files the camera automatically creates, no rendering) and export an EDL to REDCINE, where I can do pan and scan on the 4k files - a wonderful process - and one-light the RAW footage (so much lattitude!) before round-tripping to FCP again as whatever you like - ProRes in my case.

At NAB RED showed Color working natively with r3d files (the RedRAW camera footage) via an as yet unreleased Color update - RED are very tight with Apple. When this is released (within the year we hope!) it will allow everything to be done within FCS. Color will not, however, allow you to work with 4K, as I understand it - not yet. Still, 2K is great - especially as the camera now shoots up to 120 fps at 2K.

Wow - I know this is long and gushy, but anyone working and producing with FCP has to look at RED. Scarlet will be another leap forward. Everyone I work with is falling over themselves to shoot on it, post issues real or imagined, so you'll come across it sooner or later. Right now, if we want to shoot for TV, HD, we use the RED and log and transfer makes it about as taxing as shooting P2. Ingest is not real time, it's around 3:1 right now, but that's not a deal-breaker unless you are shooting a lot every day or multiple cameras. Even on a doco, you'd only shoot a few hours a day, and that's now an easy overnight ingest.

RED did what they said they would, sooner than anyone said they would, at the price they said they would. And they p*ssed off a lot of people doing it. I think they like that. Some people don't - and I have varying opinions about the REDUser forum where RED hand out product titbits to a mixture of fanboys and pros. It's a lot of noise to wade through, unlike the COW. The noise was so bad after the NAB announcement the company founder took a leave of absence from the website. I think he was incredulous that he announced Scarlet and Epic, and got complaints about the features... Mind you, don't know many billionaires who post regularly on user groups either.

So - longest post ever. If anyone on the COW want to know what it's really like to work on RED footage in FCP ask away. Yes, I'm a believer, but I'm also a long-time FCP user and sceptic, I promise to tell it like it is.

One last thing from NAB. Next year RED will launch REDRAY alongside Scarlet. It has 4 HD-SDI outs and 4 HDMI outs for 4K playback, which you can play from a CF card slot on the device - making it effectively a deck for the RED camera. Calls on the user-group for it to include deck-control have been met favourably by the company. Oh, and it also has a DVD drive in it. Using a standard DVD-R9, RED claim they can compress onto and playback 2 hours of 4k footage, using new compression algorithms. Well, they DO have Grahame Nattress on board.

So, it's a 4K movie distribution device and a RED deck. How much you ask? 5K, 3K? 30K? RED claim the target price is UNDER $1,000. And I have to believe them - I've seen them deliver.

So if you pre-order one, buy me a beer in 2009 - ok?

Ben



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Leo Ticheli
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 19, 2008 at 10:43:58 pm

Hi Jerry,

It's all true; because of Red, we're enjoying the biggest revolution in our business since non-linear computer editing.

There are really only three kinds of people who deny the incredible quality of Red footage; those who have never seen it, those who are simply lying because they have a vested interest in something else, and those with severe visual impairment. You know, the blind.

I guess I could add trolls to the list.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo










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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 20, 2008 at 12:05:00 am

Well, I've never claimed to be a shooter because I don't freelance as one. I just can't shoot and direct. One or both suffer. I've done my own table top though the years.

However, I've studied images for a very long time. and shoot RAW stills with a DSLR... Canon stuff. RED is the REAL DEAL. It's just like shooting that only 120fps. yikes.

The school's RED ONE is in the now serving numbers. http://www.coloradofilmschool.net I teach a class there or two as adjunct faculty. I'll have some access to it during my vigil for a Scarlet..

It is the future. ProRes makes this much more doable now in more shoots than not. So IMHO, it's already arriving.

When you choose bleeding edge you bleed. But the pain's being "dulled" big time. A short time from now Log and Capture will work right I'll wager and fix most all the bugs. It was developed to this point fairly quickly as these things go actually.

RED's Lean, Mean, and will move faster than the NLE companies can. Shoot, how many firmware updates have these guys done? More than big companies ever could. I say their way of doing business is up front, straight forward and worth a LOT more than they are asking us to pay.

Something else... RED's competition was really badmouthing RED on the show floor I hear from the RED shooters... THAT is a huge victory for RED. It's sealing the deal. RED doesn't have to trash talk the competition. They show what they have, and the deal's pretty much done. It's superior pictures, and less expensive. Gads it's obvious isn't it?

Whether RED makes the big time with this technology is a no brainer. They already have. Bravo Jim, Ted, and the rest of RED. It was so evident at NAB that they had a killer show. I was mobbed, they were mobbed. It was a thing of beauty.

Jerry




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Jeffrey Cirbes
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 7:33:10 pm

How can you view a 4K raw image in real time?



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Leo Ticheli
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 9:37:26 pm

The Red camera is capable of shooting at several combinations of image size and quality. When set to 4K, the RAW files themselves can be viewed in real time only with specific hardware and software; however the camera also makes proxy files, Quicktime movies, which and be viewed in real time and imported directly into Final Cut and edited. You can use all the color grading tools there or Apple Color.

For a short while longer, you cannot open the full 16:9 4K files in Final Cut, so you must set the camera to 4K 2:1. This is a software issue which is being address right now.

The RAW files offer much greater range of color grading, but the proxy files look fine and can either be used as the final output or can be replaced with the color graded RAW files.

The 4K RAW files can be color graded and converted to almost any required format with Red's free application, RedCine. At this time the processing time is lengthy, so dedicated hardware or software is necessary for high volume operations.

I hope this helps; you will find much more detailed information at the Red site or the Red users forum.

Best regards,

Leo






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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 10:00:09 pm

In reality though, when you view a proxy you ARE viewing the 4k file... but only in 2k. It's basically showing you every other pixel from the 4k but using the 4k to show it. It's the magic of the wavelet compression... pretty neat trick IMHO.

Hey, there's very few ways of actually viewing the 4k in 4k... you'd need Scratch, and you'd need a 4k monitor or projector...

Trust me here, the 2k will knock your socks off.

Jerry

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Jeffrey Cirbes
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 10:27:20 pm

"Trust me"?
The real time output from the camera is 720 with frame lines
et al. Correct me if I'm wrong, but trying to check focus on that requires more than trust.



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 10:41:59 pm

You don't think 720 is good enough to check focus with? I should think it would be. But the eyepiece should certainly show whether or not you're in focus.

Seems to work for the 20 odd shooters material I've posted so far... They aren't having problems with focus from what I'm seeing.

Jerry

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Jeffrey Cirbes
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 10:58:56 pm

"You don't think 720 is good enough to check focus with?"

No, and trying to fit the Director, UPM, Studio Exec, DP all
around the EVF is going to be a problem. They barely fit at video village now.



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gary adcock
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 11:21:31 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "In reality though, when you view a proxy you ARE viewing the 4k file... but only in 2k."

Sorry but that is just not correct.

I would guess to say that maybe 90% of the people viewing the proxies are only looking at
the 8bit YUV part of the R3D file. That is certainly the case when just viewing the file in QT or when looking at any of the proxies without first configuring FCP to handle the file.

Even when your FCP is configured correctly - something as simple as improper usage of graphics or certain transitions still cause FCP to revert to the easiest part of the file to read- the 8bit YUV- and FCP will go keep going back there every time you let it.

This is the real reasons behind the Kona support for RED you were demoing at the AJA Booth at NAB Jerry, since it is enabled in the hardware to FORCE FCP to look at only the 4:4:4:4 / 32bit float part of the R3D file while playing thru a Kona Card was such a big deal.

The complexity of the RED workflow has been one of the factors that kept the vast majority of users on high end in frame based workflows (DPX), now with the support for Gluetools vastly improved across the FCS2 suite in the current release, I see more and more people keeping that workflow intact for a while, since it has been around in the DI world for a while.

"Hey, there's very few ways of actually viewing the 4k in 4k."

Cinetal, Marshal and Astro all have shown 4 K viewing solutions- Astro was showing a 42in 4K monitor at IBC last fall.

Quantel, Assimilate, Lustre, Iridas, Filmlight all are now capable of handling and delivering 4K work, but Jerry is correct most people are staying in the 2K realm for now.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 22, 2008 at 12:17:52 am

What I was referring to is that the proxy is reading the 4k file... which it does in RT down resing it to 2k..

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D


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Gunleik Groven
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 10:21:34 pm

OK. I have a RED. I'm biased! :)
I also have a P2 cam (selling it)
And I have been posting most cams availabele around here.

RED is easier to work with (on osx) than p2. The instant preview files are very tempting. And the proxies (if shot properly) looks better than most "raw" (not as in RAW) footage I've seen from most cams.

Preview in 4k.... No, you can't really on any standard system, but there're three important additions to this statement.
1. Downsampling from 4k to 1080 is gorgeous and quite fast to a video codec.
2. Going to 10 bit log dpx from the raw and then CC'ing is (to me) really an eye opener. Whatever delivery format.
3. You CAN do previews of 4k on some systems, if it is really neccesarry. Nope, not on a dvcproHD system, but on film gear tuned towards it.

The thing is that you can (generally) follow a really easy and fast"video" workflow, or you can follow a heavyer "film scan" workflow. The fun thing is that you have both options with the same RAW material. It's your choice.

My moral is: I sorta like it...



It's gonna be a Red Hot Year
http://www.vulture.no/Websted/Reel.html


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Clark Dunbar
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 21, 2008 at 10:13:13 pm

Hey Jerry,

as discussed - RED footage changes the game - period!

for those who haven't quite 'gotten it", we have over at Mammoth HD, a dedicated RED footage library, previews, RED Demo Reels and a cool "4K, 2K, HD1080, HD720, SD format" interactive comparison chart -> http://www.mammothhd.com/MHD_compformat2.html

With shooting in 4K or 3K you can scale, crop and pan/scan within the frame for HD projects.... and NEVER be less than 1080. Get you hands on a RED or some RED files (either ProRez or preferably the camera originals r3d file) download the free software from RED and the Log/Transfer plug for FCP and PLAY with the images. The image quality will convince you, and the workflow is very workable - for everything from corporate to broadcast to feature/indie film - pick your route.

Another online workflow tutorial that's been posted is "RED - Mythbusters" with Ted Schilowitz from RED and Michael Cioni of Plaster City Digital Post - a must see ->>http://www.red.com/red_mythbusters





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Russell Lasson
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 22, 2008 at 9:51:15 pm

Wow. It's interesting to see the different sides of this. There are a lot of people who are saying,
"RED is going to rule the world!" and others who are saying, "What's the big deal? My clients love my 720p material."

As for me, I'll second the notion that I THINK RED IS GOING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!

I know that there are all of these little cameras that people have been using like the HVX200 and the XDCAM EX1, that there is a market for those (at least for another year until Scarlet starts shipping.) The RED ONE isn't really meant to replace those cameras. RED ONE was meant to replace or compete with everything from a shoulder mount HD camera and up (including film). The big news at NAB this year was that RED succeeded in entering the market. The big news next year will be that RED will be starting to dominate the market.

Just to put this into perspective. Here in Utah over the past several years, I only know four people that I could rent a Varicam from. I knew less that I could rent a F900 from. If I wanted a 35mm film camera, there was one place to go to. If I needed any 2k camera or HDCAM SR, I would have to go out of state to get it. So as you can see, it's a small market for cameras.

Now RED has only been shipping for six months and I know of at least six or seven cameras that I could rent. A year from now I could easily be twenty or thirty RED ONEs here, not to mention once EPIC and Scarlet start shipping. Any one who doesn't see this as a MAJOR industry shift is not seeing the reality of what is happening. I will be using RED in the next year or two regardless of whether I see it coming now or not.

While RED isn't going to put Panasonic or Sony out of business and while both Panasonic and Sony have some great cameras, RED is going to really hurt them. I'm a big fan of the HPX3000 and recording in AVCIntra, but if it will work for the project, I'd rather shoot 4K or 3K RED. All of the local DPs who were looking at spending $30-$80 an XDCAM, HDCAM or P2HD camera are now looking at the RED ONE.

Currently, RED isn't perfect and it will still have some growing pains, but as it stands today, I'm going to start using it whenever I can.

Thanks for your comments Jerry. It was a pleasure to be able to talk with you as much as I was able to during NAB. Same goes for you too Gary!

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 23, 2008 at 2:17:51 pm

Ya know something? 720 and RED just don't look the same at all IMHO.. The shallow depth of field you can achieve with a RED camera isn't there, nor is the color saturation... LET ALONE the fact that if you shoot 4k for HD delivery, you can crop and resize the picture on an amazing basis... like getting CU's from medium shots? just try expanding 720 and doing that... pixilation city... not with RED though, it's a piece of cake. Full 1080 cropped from 4k allows you to crop out 75-80% of the picture and STILL have full quality 1080... think about it.

There's so much more to the picture quality it really doesn't compete. You'd have to shoot 35 to get a competing look...

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D


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Sam Roberts
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 24, 2008 at 11:59:27 pm

I just purchased FCP with the Aja io HD breakout box. I'm also in the market for a new camera and RED looks very interesting. Can someone walk me through how I get the video from RED's drive
(or cards) into FCP using the Aja io HD box.



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gary adcock
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 25, 2008 at 2:05:05 pm

[Sam Roberts] "Can someone walk me through how I get the video from RED's drive (or cards) into FCP using the Aja io HD box."


The IoHD was not designed for RED, for full capability and support of the REDCode you need to work with the Kona 3 card, and upcoming V6 of the Kona Driver that offers RED support.

To Use RED with the IoHD you will need to disconnect the IoHD to transfer the data from the cards then reconnect the unit for playback from FCP

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Sam Roberts
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 25, 2008 at 6:44:49 pm

Gary...thanks for the info. I've got a few weeks to to return the ioHD and swap it for the Kona3 card. Looking at the specs there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between the two except for the pro-res thing in the io HD.

Any idea how much the Kona 3 breakout box is?

Thanks,
Sam



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gary adcock
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 25, 2008 at 7:53:50 pm

[Sam Roberts] "Looking at the specs there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between the two except for the pro-res thing in the io HD"


What about Dual Link and 2K support in addition to the hardware support for RED?

There are some real differences with the card and the Io.






gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Sam Roberts
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 26, 2008 at 5:08:17 pm

I understand. Well I will probably stick with the io HD for now as I need to input legacy Betcam material as well as digital. And I won't be purchasing a camera until next fall or early 2009. When and if I buy a RED can a KONA 3 card and a io HD both be connected to the same Mac Pro?



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 29, 2008 at 9:47:01 pm

I think you might be able to do that. Check with AJA for sure before you count on it, but I don't think there would be a problem with it. Two I/O devices, but one is PCI and the other is Firewire... Been doing that with DV and a Kona for years.. and leaving both up at the same time...

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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gary adcock
Re: I'm never shooting video again.
on Apr 30, 2008 at 1:27:37 pm

[Sam Roberts] "When and if I buy a RED can a KONA 3 card and a io HD both be connected to the same Mac Pro?"

Only in the new standalone mode
(settings preset then the unit is disconnected from the computer) but that is essentially what you want something that will allow passthru of the older analog data into the system.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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