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Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!

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Aaron Neitz
Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 24, 2008 at 5:10:50 pm

The big problem with 4K capture in close ups -> you actors need to have perfect skin and your make-up artists need to be well above average!

This camera has no mercy! lots of beauty work having to be done in post! ARGH!

I wonder what the relative resolution of RED vs 35mm really is? our DI techs on a HD to 35mm filmout mentioned that a 35mm print in theaters has an approximate vertical resolution of 500 lines because of gate chatter and pin registration variance. We ran a side by side projection on a 40 foot screen of our project: one half from a 35mm print and the other half on a 2k Barco - astonishing difference!



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Leo Ticheli
Re: Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 24, 2008 at 6:48:46 pm

I do not agree.

Beauty + beautiful lighting = Beauty

Beauty + bad lighting = Ugly

The resolution of the Red, or any other camera, film or HD, is irrelevant. The "problems" in the makeup and set/props departments which appeared with the advent of HD were far more due to inexperience than resolution. I suspect over sharpening was the chief offender.

I'm quite sure depth of field played a part as well, for some switching from 35MM to film may have failed to take into account set pieces being sharper than before. Since Red has the same depth of field as 35MM film, this is not an issue.

Not appealing to authority, but I don't believe I'm alone in this opinion.

Additionally, the native Red images are rather soft looking, although you can certainly add sharpening in post.

Cinematographers, not cameras, make pictures.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo



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Aaron Neitz
Re: Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 24, 2008 at 8:39:32 pm

Uh.... I'm not sure what to make of such a rebuke?

Of course you need good DP's and makeup. Do you take me for an idiot?

You suspect "over sharpening" was the culprit? Sharpening in post??

And for some "switching from 35MM to film....set pieces being sharper than before." not sure what you're getting at?

I work in post production. 95% of my media has been shot on 35. When we moved from SD finishing to HD finishing we added extra hours into the post schedule for cleanups and beauty work: resolution makes a difference. Crow's feet that aren't apparent in SD show up in 1080. How can you say resolution is irrelevant?

Not trying to be combative, but I'm a little taken aback.



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Leo Ticheli
Re: Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 24, 2008 at 11:48:48 pm

My comments are certainly not a rebuke.

Red camera files are RAW and the sharpening, if any, is applied in post. The native images are rather soft looking.

Yes, I did mistype in my comment about switching from 35MM film to 2/3" HD which has more depth of field. I wrote, "from 35MM to film;" I meant to type 35MM to HD. Objects in the BG that are pleasantly out of focus in 35MM can be objectionable when shooting 2/3" HD because they are in enough focus to show flaws.

I do agree that there's a difference in look posting HD and SD, but this is unrelated to the capture medium, which was the subject of your original post. We should always shoot for the highest quality medium, not the other way round.

Sorry you are having trouble in post correcting what I believe should not have reached you that way in the first place.

Not that I haven't been rescued by post artists, but it's the cinematographer's duty to give you the proper look regardless of post format.

Best regards,

Leo






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Steve Wargo
Re: Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 26, 2008 at 5:51:13 am

Can't you turn on the "skin tone" feature and soften the skin color without affecting the rest of the image?




Steve Wargo
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Uli Plank
Re: Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 27, 2008 at 6:19:45 pm

Don't confuse the Red with any ordinary video camera – SD or HD. All of them add quite a bit of artificial sharpening (technically some overshooting of high-frequency signals). And actresses – even very young and pretty ones – have good reason to hate this.

The Red is not doing anything like that, so some folks blame it to be softer than other cameras at 2K (remember the 3 letter camera compare). But IMHO they do the right thing: they leave it up to the post artists to apply any corrections, may this be sharpening or skin smoothing. Every decent post system has these filters nowadays and since they don't need to be realtime (at least not in full rez) they offer better quaity and much more control.

Apart from that, I agree with Leo regarding lighting and cinematography.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 28, 2008 at 2:26:10 am

I think one of the problems getting people to understand the camera is the fact that you can't see what you have until processing the picture. (much like a film shoot. If you have some experience with RAW digital stills, then an analogy can be drawn, and the people who do have experience with RAW get it right way...

RED is it's own revolutionary thing for sure.

That said, there are ways to soften skin tones in post fairly easily. I made a 55 year old nice looking gal look like she was in her early 40's with a plugin for FCP the other day that made her very happy. Patrick Sheffield wrote this plugin.. nice and very easy to use... Only softens skin tone of course. and you can mask out others if you have to etc.. pretty neat. Sheffield Softworks. But I'll bet you could do much the same in Color's secondaries... just not as easy. He calls it "Electronic Makeup Artist" I think... FCP FX Plug class plugin. works wonders on other things too.. I love it. A "natural" looking blur sort of.

Jerry

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Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

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Graeme Nattress
Re: Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 28, 2008 at 2:59:44 pm

Yes, it's the aggressive sharpening / aperture correction that makes skin look problematic on HD. That's needed as they're desperate to try to get 1920 resolution from 1920 sensors, and to do that, they go for extreme electronic jiggery pokery.

No sharpening is applied by default on RED footage. It's there if you want it though. We also offer three levels of detail extraction (not to be confused with sharpening - this is how intensive the algorithms work to pull detail out of the raw and it's not just a euphemism for unsharp mask!) so if you want, you can leave a shot at lower detail if necessary. That's one of the advantages of RAW for you.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Nate Weaver
Re: Warning about RED and Beautiful Actresses!
on Mar 29, 2008 at 4:46:54 am

[Graeme Nattress] "We also offer three levels of detail extraction (not to be confused with sharpening - this is how intensive the algorithms work to pull detail out of the raw and it's not just a euphemism for unsharp mask!)"

That's actually hugely important to know, Graeme. I wondered about that.

Nate Weaver
Director/D.P., Los Angeles
http://www.nateweaver.net


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