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RED footage with endless problems

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Luke Ogden
RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 19, 2012 at 4:51:43 pm

I've recently started a project that requires a 1080x3840 deliverable video (two 1080 screens on their side and stacked).

I decided to shoot on the RED as I saw it as the simplest way to get the that kind of resolution.

All went sweet until I began editing an I'm now tearing my hair out and very worried.

Heres the situation:

-Began the edit in Premiere editing the native R3D files, things we're going well.
-Then Premiere starts getting really slow, glitchy, crashing, freezing etc.
-Tried all the usual checks, trash preferences, clear video cache etc
-Move to a new system:

•3.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7
•16GB 1333MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 4x4GB
•1TB Serial ATA Drive + 256GB Solid State Drive
•AMD Radeon HD 6970M 2GB GDDR

and tried using different scratch disks. External FW800, Thunderbolt SSD
starting the project over.

-manage to cut a few rough sequences together but premiere and media encoder freezes/crashes when trying to export some of the 1080x3840 Quicktimes

-Attempted putting the R3D files in to 4k ProRes4444 using REDCINE X in order to edit them in FCP X, again experiencing all sorts of problems, crashes, failed or partial transcodes etc.

So now i'm stuck, going a bit mad and I literally don't know where to go from here.

I feel like I've tried to isolate every variable and the only one left is the footage, could the R3D files be corrupt some how? how could I check?

are there any other workflows or work arounds I can attempt?

thanks as always

Luke


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Ryan Mast
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 19, 2012 at 6:47:17 pm

Have you tried transcoding to ProRes 422 HQ and editing that in Premiere, instead of working directly from the R3D files?

--
Meteor makes pretty.


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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 19, 2012 at 8:12:33 pm

When transcoding out of RED CINE X (build 506) one of 2 things usually happens.

1. It crashes and closes
2.The clips begin transcoding in the batch monitor, half way through each clip the details column states a "decode error in frame 60,61,62......"

My export preset was:
Quicktime
422 HQ
4096x2304
Automatic Gamma Correction
Debayer Setting 4k: Full



Are there any other programs you can use to transcode the footage?
Or would it help help to take the clips to one of London's many post houses set up with RED hardware, and have it transcoded there?

Is it possible the clips are corrupt somehow?

thanks

Luke


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 19, 2012 at 10:32:21 pm

[Luke Ogden] "Is it possible the clips are corrupt somehow?"

Sure.

Do you have another copy of the footage to try it on?


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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 19, 2012 at 11:24:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Do you have another copy of the footage to try it on?
"

I have a few copies, all seem to yield similar results.

I realise now that I dont have the .log and .profile from the original RDM folder, could this be causing the problem?

It just odd because I can see/play them in Premiere and RED CINE X just can't export them from either.

thanks for the help so far

Luke


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 19, 2012 at 11:34:09 pm

Have you tried a 1080 export just for grins?

Apologies if you said that already.


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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 1:14:24 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Have you tried a 1080 export just for grins?"

Yes, I just tried this with a different clip and it worked fine.

I've since managed to export a 4k ProRes file, but as soon as it got to the next clip in the batch exporter REDCINE X crashed (quit unexpectedly).

Its almost as if certain clips are fine and then it get to others and just goes haywire.

Any remedy suggestions?
Any similar experiences?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 2:08:00 am

[Luke Ogden] "Yes, I just tried this with a different clip and it worked fine. "

Now try it on one of the files that was giving you grief. Forget 4k for now. QuickTime gets funky with these large frame sizes.

If 1080 works, your footage is ok.

Yes, I've dealt with corrupt footage from a Red, but let's not go there quite yet.

Jeremy


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David Battistella
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 11:25:54 am

Try exporting 1920 x 1080 files from RCX- P in the Prores 422 (HQ) version.

I think you are dealing with some custom frame sizes.

One step at a time.

First get all the footage rendered.

Then, open up a new FCP X project.

Then, let FCP X do it's thing to opitmize media.

Then Start editing.


David

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert
http://vimeo.com/battistella



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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 1:53:01 pm

[David Battistella] "Try exporting 1920 x 1080 files from RCX- P in the Prores 422 (HQ) version. "

Made some 1080 422(HQ) exports, from two different locations and shooting days.

Two clips had detected errors.



but in reality all the clips from the second location/card have been exported as just black clips with he exception of one, which plays for a couple seconds and then goes black.

They are correct in length but small in file size.

Just odd because the same clips imported and played in premiere albeit with their own set of issues.


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David Battistella
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 2:50:54 pm

This sounds like the files are corrupted. Are they 300fps clips?


David

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert
http://vimeo.com/battistella



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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:02:27 pm

[David Battistella] " Are they 300fps clips?"

No they are either, 25fps 4k or 100fps 2k.

Hopefully there is a way to save the corrupt files! or else i'm screwed

Is it due to the .log and .profile that weren't copied over?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:13:06 pm

I agree that they are probably corrupt.

This is what I did to get around the corrupt frames: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?55426-Corrupt-R3D-Files&p=736362&vi...

Did you use a data managing program to do your transfers? Something like shotput pro?


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David Battistella
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:22:18 pm

It has nothing to do with that.

A proper copy program like R3D data manager or Shotput pro, copies and verifies that the data has been transfered.

The only other thing I suggest is that you "rollback" to a previous build of REDCINE-X to see if the files will play in a previous version without the corruption issues.

Othere than that if the copies were just "drag and drop" then it could be corrupt media.

Some people have been having problems with offspeed 2K material.

David

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert
http://vimeo.com/battistella



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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:47:38 pm

The clips were unfortunatley drag and dropped in finder from the RED CF card to a FW Hard drive via an express card CF reader.

MISTAKE!

Wish I had had shot-put.


[David Battistella] "The only other thing I suggest is that you "rollback" to a previous build of REDCINE-X"

how do you go about doing this?

Thanks for all the Help guys. Really appreciated

Luke


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David Battistella
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:51:31 pm

Go to RED.com and download an older version of the software. You can have a couple of different versions.

I usually have the latest and two versions back and then ONE way back version, just in case.

IE
Current version is BUILD 10

I have 9 and 8 and the an old version of REDCINE X (before it turned pro.


R3D data manager is what I use. It lets me copy the files over, verify and leave a copy of teh verification on the drive I would hand a client.

Protection.

David

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert
http://vimeo.com/battistella



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:52:07 pm

Luke-

Simply download an older version. It's defineitly worth a shot, but my hunch is that it's not going to be your problem.

Take one of your problem clips and do what I outlined in the reduser post. See if you find some corrupt frames.


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David Battistella
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:55:32 pm

Second Jeremy's very good advice....

David

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert
http://vimeo.com/battistella



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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 4:12:30 pm

Ok, i'll download a couple of the old builds of RCX and give it a go.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Take one of your problem clips and do what I outlined in the reduser post. See if you find some corrupt frames."

I'm going to give this a go. Although I'm a little confused by the process so i'll let you know in due course how I get on.

Once again thank you so much for you patience and help in resolving this.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 4:26:56 pm

[Luke Ogden] "I'm going to give this a go. Although I'm a little confused by the process so i'll let you know in due course how I get on."

In short, you use RCX to make a low res tiff sequence.

When it's complete, browse to the sequence in motion, if there is more than one sequence in the browser, you have dropped frames.

If you have adobe bridge, you then browse all the pictures in there. Scroll through and look for corrupt/partial/green/black frames, and write down those frame numbers.

Then use the r3d trim feature of RCX to export around the corrupt and missing frames by frame number. Lets say you have a 2400 frame clip. If frame 1-998 are good, frame 999-1001 are bad, 1002-1586 are good, 1587 is bad and 1588-2400 are good, you would export using r3d trim three new r3d files that are frames 1-998, 1092-1586, and 1588-2400.

In my scenario, we had a mixture of both corrupt and dropped frames. Its a pain in the arse to fix, but we fixed it and we're able to salvage the edit, despite the missing media.

Jeremy


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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 7:11:02 pm

Ok here I go......A long night ahead!

In my test clip I have managed to identify the offending frame (just one!) but I'm not great at RCX

[Jeremy Garchow] "Then use the r3d trim feature of RCX to export around the corrupt and missing frames by frame number"

where is this feature? Its important for me to bypass the viewer as opening the clip in there crashes the program.

Also what would be the quickest preset setting to export my Tiff sequences? my test took ages.

Thanks


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 20, 2012 at 8:03:31 pm

[Luke Ogden] "where is this feature? Its important for me to bypass the viewer as opening the clip in there crashes the program.
"


Yes, not loading a clip to the viewer to begin the cache process will save that crash.

The settings are in the Export preset dialog.

Because you seem like a nice guy, and I've been sitting where you are, I have uploaded the two settings that I used.

One is called the "corrupt frame finder" which will generate 640x480 tiff sequence. Yes, it takes a long time and it sucks. A Red Rocket would help here.

The next setting is the R3D Trim. To load these in to RCX or Pro (either will work) right click in the export window and choose "load" and point RCX to these XML files.

Download here: 3555_r3dtrim.zip

You will have to change the output destination as I set these to my desktop for you.

You add all of your corrupt clips to a bin in RCX, then you set the view mode to list view.

Find the "clip in" and "clip out" columns.

Type in the in point (usually 0) and then type in the frame number right before your corrupt frame. So if frame 68 is corrupt, set your in to 0 and your out to 67. Then select that one clip, choose the R3D Trim_Cow export setting in the export window, choose Bin (selected clips) and hit Export.

Then go back to that clip and enter the new in point (frame 69 in the above example) and the out point (which will be one less than the total number of frame of the clip, so if there's 248 frames, your pout point will be 247), choose the export setting and hit export again.

This will give you two new R3D clips without the corrupt frame.

As I said, pain in the arse, but it will save your shoot.

Jeremy


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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 21, 2012 at 5:51:33 pm

So.... after a long night with plenty cups of coffee, I have managed to save around 90% of the footage. Its looking like the project is back on track

I can't thank you enough for the help and support guys.

Jeremy you are the DON!

thanks again

Luke


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 21, 2012 at 6:00:47 pm

Glad it worked for you. Took me the better part of 5 days to get back on track last time this happened to me.

What happened to the other 10%?

Was 10% of it damaged?


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Luke Ogden
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 21, 2012 at 9:51:18 pm

some of the corrupt frames were in the middle of an action, thus the clip was essentially lost. only a couple were affected in this way.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 21, 2012 at 10:31:53 pm

Got ya.

Glad you're up and running.

Jeremy


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Darren Kelly
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 24, 2012 at 3:31:02 am

I would have said your computer was underpowered. You need a multi disc RAID to run that footage correctly. 3-5 drives would be my recommendation. The video card should be changed too. Try an Nvidia card, GTX570/580.

Why do so many people try and edit HD and higher footage off a single drive? We couldn't do it in the old days, why do people think they can now?

DBK


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Jan 24, 2012 at 3:55:52 am

[Darren Kelly] "I would have said your computer was underpowered. You need a multi disc RAID to run that footage correctly. 3-5 drives would be my recommendation. The video card should be changed too. Try an Nvidia card, GTX570/580.

Why do so many people try and edit HD and higher footage off a single drive? We couldn't do it in the old days, why do people think they can now?

DBK
"


I don't know who you're talking to, but I'll take a stab at it.

1080 ProRes does not take a multi drive raid. Red one cameras record their media on to a compact flash cards, for better or for worse. The new generation cameras conveniently got rid of them (also due to hdrx and faster frame rates)

If you read my reduser post, you will see that in my case we were able to retrieve a few cf cards before they were deleted, and those cards had the exact same corrupt and drop frames. My raid (which I do and did have at the time) and graphics card had nothing to do with it. This is a red problem and if you dig deep enough, you'll find more cases exactly like this.

While its recommended to have a raid for more speed, and mostly capacity and protection, editing ProRes it isn't necessarily needed. A KiPro has a single spindle 2.5" hdd drive, and I have been using then for a couple of years now with zero hdd problems. It's not quite the same as editing, but the point is there. Single spindle drives get 100 MB/sec these days. That's plenty for even ProRes 444 @ 1080p 24.


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Jon Frost
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Feb 22, 2012 at 7:48:45 am

Everytime you backup card from the RED, you have to copy the whole file structure from the card!!! No exceptions. RED ONE, RED SCARLET, RED EPIC...

If you don't have all the little files that connect the R3D to the clip, you are most likely in serious trouble.

Your backup HDD file structure should look something like this...

MY PROJECT
Original RED Footage
Day 1 011912 CARD 1
Day 1 011912 CARD 2
Day 1 011912 CARD 3

Into each folder for a given card you copy the entire contents of the Card or Drive from your RED camera into the file folder for each card. Remember that you don't want any files with the same name in the same folder or you will overwrite something. On the RED this is not as big a deal since it captures so much data in a single file name that duplicates are not that likely.

Hope this helps.

e-mail direct for more info.

Jon Frost
frostgfx@gmail.com


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Nelson Goforth
Re: RED footage with endless problems
on Mar 7, 2012 at 8:39:17 pm

I had a similar problem and Red support had me execute an operation on DIP switches on my Red Rocket card - resetting the card. Scary - especially as I was in the field away from my tools and magnifier, but it worked. If the problem occurs again I suggest a call to Red.

Red Camera Rental & Indy Features, Denver Colorado.
rockymountain4k.com * 303.506.2456


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