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Carlos Manuel
a 90min take in 4K
on May 2, 2011 at 11:20:02 pm

Hi all,

I'm writing a script for an independent film, and a major question is in my head.

The film will be done in a single take.
A 90 to 100 minutes one take only.
I want to shoot in 4K.

Since we can not use cards to record the video, we will have to capture and record on a Disk Array.

The computer with the capture card will be around 10 to 16 meter away from the camera. (the camera will be mounted on a steady)

What capture card / disk / etc. do you recommend?

I would like to save the images on 2 diffrent computers, as a safety option. What card will give me a loop-trought for the video signal?


Any input is VERY welcome.

Thank's
Carlos


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Stephen Lovett
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 3, 2011 at 3:48:03 am

Hi,

Really not an issue. A 640GB RED Drive will provide you more than enough room to accomplish this.

Best,

Steve


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Uli Plank
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 3, 2011 at 5:28:12 am

But maybe not with the safety level you need. It is a RAID 0…
I'm afraid there is no other possibility, since some people experienced difficulties even with the longer drive cable – which is far shorter than what you are asking for.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Stephen Lovett
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 3, 2011 at 5:48:03 am

Uli is correct that the RED drives are in fact a raid 0 array.

Having said that, thousands of folks use these drives every day as there principal media and they are used on big shows as well.

I recently shot on a five camera RED shoot for a Swan Lake performance where each of the cameras only cut for the two intermissions, and that performance was almost three hours long. Even with loud music, and a less than solid balcony, we were OK.

I think the ET ISO mounts are a good investment, I've got them on my drives, and haven't had any issues. (

To my knowledge there aren't any 256GB ssd's in the wild yet, that would be your best option.

We've got the SSD side module for our MX... but no media yet, hopefully soon.

Steve


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Uli Plank
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 3, 2011 at 1:55:22 pm

Sure, ours never let us down either. But Carlos was even asking for parallel recording, so I thought I should mention that. If it's a feature with high production value and continuous recording, I'd get a bit nervous myself. Even Swan lake hsot with several cameras would give you some fallback.

Remember the St. Petersburg production in the Eremitage from Russia? The first electronic one take feature I know, and they dragged heavy recorders around behind the camera…

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 4, 2011 at 3:35:43 pm

[Carlos Manuel] "Since we can not use cards to record the video, we will have to capture and record on a Disk Array."

Are you saying something like a raid? As of right now, there's no way to get 4k out a Red One via baseband connections.

If this isn't what you are talking about, then the other posts make sense.

Jeremy


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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 4, 2011 at 10:58:22 pm

First of all, let me thank all the answers.
I'm not an English native, so apologise for any language mistake.

I'm writing a film that will be shoted in a single take (like the Russian Ark).

The camera will be on an Milo motion control.
http://www.mrmoco.com
It will move (max) 8m horizontal and will go 4m in vertical.

We will have around 20 actors that will platy during the 90/100 minutes single take.
I can do this only one time.

I have never worked with the RED or in 4K, but because most of the film will be in wide angle, 4K is the best option in terms of detail.
I can also (maybe) do some small digital zoom in post for the HD/2K final master.

I do not know the RED but I believe that there is no way, in terms of capacity, to record 4K uncompressed using SSD cards.

I thought that I will need a computer with a capture card (blackmagic ?) and a LARGE disk array (Raid 0) to save the images.

Is this possible?

Recording on 2 seperate systems is only for precaution.
It will be a tremendous disaster to have a problem during a single possible take...

- Does the RED as "video out" that can do this?
- If not the RED, any advice?

- do you feel that the Decklink 4K will be good for me?
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/decklink4k


- Steve said that with a 640GB RED Drive I will do the work.
640 GB will have enought space for 100minutes of uncompressed 4K ?

- Jeremy says the the RED has NOT 4K Out via connections.
What is the advice for me to shoot in 4k then.


I apreciate all the advices that you can give me.

Hope that you can understand me.

Sincerely
Carlos


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David Battistella
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 5, 2011 at 5:34:43 am

I think if you want 4K on a 90 minute take then you might have a couple of options:

FACTS:

The Red One records 4K to RED MEDIA DRIVES.
You can use one single drive on the camera at a time.
You can use RED RAID 320 or 640 GB) drive to capture the take.
You can opt for a 256GB RED RAM (solid state memory drive)
You can OPT for RED SSD and 256GB drive and record at 4K and possibly fir 90 min on that.

You can not record 4K from the video outputs of the camera.
The camera monitor output is limited to 720P ONLY (no 2K, no 3K, no 4K.
There is not a tape format that will record a 4K and 4K is not even availble of the camera.


If you want 4K then you can only record to RED media.

Those are the facts you should consider when making your descision.


David

Peace



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Uli Plank
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 5, 2011 at 5:33:22 am

Sorry, Carlos,

but you need to learn much more about the RED first. Get Noah's book, it's a very good first reading.

The RED does not output 4K uncompressed, period.

It is recording in a proprietary format, which is RAW (similar to a DSLR) and compressed, like a digital negative. You can't even look at it, since it's not 'developed' yet (called de-bayering).

You can record that file only to drives from RED, and currently the RED RAID is your only option for feature length.

If you don't trust it, you'll have to go 2K and use a solution similar to the "Russian Ark" or wait for a solution in 4K from other manufacturers to come to market, like Sony.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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David Battistella
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 5, 2011 at 5:35:21 am

I agree with Uli,

Also, if you are the films writer, why are you so concerned about the 4K technology?

David

Peace



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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 6, 2011 at 8:03:54 pm

Thanks all.

Let me try to explain myself better.
This film will be the "film of my life".
I'm the director and I'm writting the script and dialogues.

It will last for 80 to 100 minutes. Don't know the exact time yet.
Most of the film will be in wide-angle with around 14 to 20 people on the set. Full body.
That's the main reason for shooting in 4K. I want defenition.
I can also do (if need later) to do some electronic zoom for the 2K final master.

At this point, I have 85% chance to play a role on the film, so I will be in front of the camera all the time.

Can you feel my hearth ?...

I'm not a DOP but I will co-produce the film, so I want to know all the options involved. With some detail, but not on a deep level.

I've realized that the RED One has not a 4K "video out", so all the images captured pon 4K have to be registered with RED hardware.


My main concern is:
-Can I record, with the RED hardware, 90minutes of 4K uncompressed - or with a native RED codec, that later on can de "expanded" to an editable format WITHOUT loosing quality?

You have talked on a 640GB RED RAID and on a RED SSD.
I can't find them on the Red website.

640GB for 90m 4K uncompressed seems a bit to short, but maybe with the native Red codec, that amount of time will fit on the 640GB.

Obviously that I can shoot on "regular" HD or 2K and solve this, but the 4K option, at this point, is very important for me.

I hope that you can understant my concerns. The camera will be on tip of the MILO all the time.
I will be acting with all the other actors.
I can ONLY shoot one time. No chance for doing all the next day!

It's my money there... ...

In my mind I need to know a bit of all, to be absolutly in peace (??)


Black-Magic is planning to lauch a new borad that will capture 4K to a computer.

Is there a camera that will output 4K in order to connect to that capture card?


I'm sorry if all this sounds to silly for you all, but I've never worked at this level, and I need some advice on this move.

If the RED is not a good option for my project, do you have any other advice?


On the RED website, in the Products, the REDRAY is not yet for sale.
The RED ROCKET board seems to have nothing to do with capture.

On the Tech Specs of the RED ONE, on the Digital Media, there's a RED SSD 256GB Capacity.
How many of these SSD can be connected at the same time?

What time will fit on 256GB in 4K?


I hope you don't feel I'm a P***.

Many thanks,
Carlos


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Uli Plank
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 7, 2011 at 7:15:16 am

Hi Carlos,

you wrote:
"My main concern is:
-Can I record, with the RED hardware, 90minutes of 4K uncompressed - or with a native RED codec, that later on can de "expanded" to an editable format WITHOUT loosing quality?"

Yes, with the native codec, there is no uncompressed recording with RED. You spend much, much more for anything like uncompressed 4K, if you can even find it. But don't worry, the quality is very good, have a look at all the films made with RED.

"You have talked on a 640GB RED RAID and on a RED SSD.
I can't find them on the Red website."

They are in short supply, try to rent. Many things are hard to get these days in electronics after the desaster in Japan.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 7, 2011 at 4:45:13 pm

Thanks Uli,

Yes, I will rent. It's a One day shooting (90min), so rent is the only solution.

I need to "be in control" of the process and want to know what tp expect in tech terms.

With your answer, I have less stress.
Shooting with the Red codec, I can record 90min, on a 640GB RED support.
At this point, that's enought for me.

Obvioulsly, on post, if we decode to uncompressed format, I will hgave a couple of TB...
But I'm expecting that.

I thank you all for the support.


Knowing my project - one take, 90min, RED mounted on a MILO motion control, around 25 wireless mics, recorded separatly on Nuendo or Protools, do you have any advice, tech related.

For example, I believe that the camera should be powered by an external power supply and not on batteries, correct?

ANY input from you is quite welcome.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Carlos


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Paul Provost
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 7, 2011 at 5:45:37 pm

rental house / dit should be in charge of providing this info/support for you.

http://www.postandbeam.tv
grade and finish @ post + beam


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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 7, 2011 at 5:51:24 pm

I undesrtand that.

But sometimes rental houses try to sell what they have in stock and not exactly what we need...


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Uli Plank
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 7, 2011 at 10:07:05 pm

You can run the RED on mains or with a specialized double battery pack where you can change one while the other is active – check if your rental can offer that (plus a third as a backup).

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Uli Plank
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 2:07:34 pm

BTW, even the smallest SSD which might be available soon, should be OK for 90 minutes at REDCode 42.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 2:13:19 pm

On the RED website there are 3 MEDIA SSD.

64GB http://www.red.com/store/media/product/red-mag-64gb
128GB http://www.red.com/store/media/product/red-mag-128gb
256GB http://www.red.com/store/media/product/red-mag-256gb

Are you talking about the 64GB ?

I can't find any chart with average recording times for the RED Codecs.


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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 3:56:20 pm

Well, I've find something.

On one of the videos on the website, a superimposed chart says:

Uncompressed 4K = 42 GB/min
Redcode 4K = 2 GB/min

According, with a 256GB SSD I can shoot a single 128 minute take in 4K using the REDCode codec ????

GREAT !

Is my math correct?


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Paul Provost
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 4:01:00 pm

is that redcode 4k at 28, 36, 42?

http://www.postandbeam.tv
grade and finish @ post + beam


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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 4:02:42 pm

I don't know.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 4:06:32 pm

Make sure you test, Carlos. As in get a camera/SSD and record for 90 minutes.

Make sure you can do this before showing up and shooting.


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Paul Provost
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 4:12:15 pm

hence my comment re: DIT/rental house being responsible for this area of the production.
you say in you first post you are the screenwriter of this project. Call me old fashioned, but is data rate and storage really where you need to be spending your time?

http://www.postandbeam.tv
grade and finish @ post + beam


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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 4:20:38 pm

@ Jeremy Garchow

Oh yes, I will test all.
I will never star shooting without being 100% sure of all.
Tech and performance.
Thanks


@Paul Provost

Thank you also for your concern also.
But please, try to understand.
It's my film.
My script, my direction, my acting and my money.
And also my time.


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David Battistella
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 4:24:13 pm

[Carlos Manuel] "According, with a 256GB SSD I can shoot a single 128 minute take in 4K using the REDCode codec ????

GREAT !"


You know.

I actually stated this option in my first reply to this thread.
But instead there has been a bunch of noise.

David

Peace



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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 4:42:29 pm

Many thanks David.


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David Battistella
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 5:01:04 pm

Thanks to you Carlos. RED is a hard thing to get your head around (at least for some) and espescially at first. The best thing to do is see it in action.

When people start into RC 42, 36, 28, etc, just remember that Che was not even shot on 28 in it's pre beta release, so if that film went around the globe and RC28 was the compression they used, then most of us can be OK with it too.

I would think that you could shoot your project with a RED MX camera that has an SSD module on it and some 256GB media at RC 36 (MORE THAN ENOUGH QUALITY) as REDCODE is a wavelet based codec that produces NO ARTIFACTING. I have never seen artifacts in an R3D file with RED and that is even on very complex scenes of foiliage, etc.

Feel confident that because you are capturing RAW data you have a lot of control over the final image for your film.

Good luck with the project and do not get to caught up in the technical details.

There was a time the greatest painters in the world mixed their pigment with egg yolks, olive oil or even their own urine to create their masterpieces. Some would have told them that they needed to shoot RC42 or their film would be shitty.

Get what I am saying. :)

David

Peace



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Carlos Manuel
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 5:23:46 pm

David,
With you last post I feel at home.

George Lucas, as far as I know, has used a single plan in SW Ep.I that was shooted in 1920x1440.

A couple of years ago, I've wined a prize with a corporate film shooted on BetacamSP, captured in Y/C and edited on Premiere 6.5.
So I understand quite well what you say.

I do not know everything and the churchs ar full of saints...

As I've told first, for several reasons, this will be the "film of my life". The story is quite personal, and beeing a single shot for artistic reasons, turns an independent project a nightmare.

I will have a DOP and the usual stuff, but I want to know the boat I will go on.
And at thisa moment, the posibility of capturing the 90min without using a separate computer with a capture card is like heaven.

The film will be shooted with a motion control, because of a unusual camera movement that can not be done with a regular crane.
For this I've also tested and asked opinion.

Like I've told you, and I know you understand, every day in my life I have more questions, and realize that don't know all.

I'll inform you, and all the others, when the realese of my "masterpiece" .

Sincerely
Carlos


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Paul Provost
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 7:38:06 pm

I find it useful to know what datarate you're using when calculating drive space requirements
Try the Aja data rate iPhone app
Get you in the ballpark

http://www.postandbeam.tv
grade and finish @ post + beam


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 6:24:06 pm

I feel like there's two sides to the Red camp. Those that have been hit with dropped and corrupt frames, and those that haven't. If you haven't been hit, the sky is the limit. When you have been hit, the reservations abound. Red is a technical camera, there's no doubt. I think as someone who is financing this, you have to at least think and respect the technical aspect of this shoot. There's no "do overs". There's one camera. Everything must work for 90 minutes straight, from the camera to the talent. That is a lot to ask. This is a technical shoot conceived in art. Treat it as such.

The typical response to technical snafu's is "hire the right people". Well, when you have nothing invested in the gear and you are renting a camera, there's only so much you can know about that particular camera. If you don't have the crew to support it, things can go wrong very fast, even if the right people are standing by. My advice would be to find an owner operator. Red was not built to be a "live event" camera. Let's face it. Even though this isn't a live event, it is essentially a 90 minute live performance.

At the very least, perhaps you think about having a few more cameras (that don't necessarily have to be red cameras) to cover important angles/moments. This way, if things go wrong, you will at least have something to show for it, but I am sure you are smart enough to figure that stuff out. Production at this level must require some contingencies.

Last time I checked, you can't record red code on urine, although that would be a sight to see.

There's no doubt Red can do some wonderful things, take great pictures and allow flexible options in post when shooting in 4k. You must respect these options and give them their due diligence as to what's possible, and what is not. It is within these limitations that art is truly created.

Good hunting,

Jeremy


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David Battistella
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 7:09:29 pm

Actually maybe the best way to to this film woudl be this:

get two RED ONEs or EPIC camera's fr that matter and hook up a 3D rig. The motion control should be able to handle the rig.

make sure both camera's are SSD drives (not the raids)

by recording a 2D film in stereo you are effectively "double recording" every take. by using the camera's in a paralell 3d rig, you could revert to the "other" eye in the event of currupt frames.

I have never encountered corrupt frames. I understand they are ususally the result of poor copying practices. IE: not using a program that checksums data, etc, or using media that was a copy of a copy or something like that.

I wasn't stabbing at anyone in this thread. We just tend to draw out threads with information that can further push the question past where it was intended. Of course the poster benefits but it can add to confusion.


David

Peace



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Uli Plank
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 8, 2011 at 9:28:56 pm

Hi David, I second your idea of recording S3D, might even improve the chances for distribution.

Corrupted frames are not only caused by bad copying practices, but by bent or dusty CF-card connectors too. Should be much safer with SSDs.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 9, 2011 at 4:12:26 pm

[David Battistella] "I have never encountered corrupt frames."

See? Two camps. :)

[David Battistella] "I understand they are ususally the result of poor copying practices. IE: not using a program that checksums data, etc, or using media that was a copy of a copy or something like that. "

That rumor holds up accept when you have the checksum data and clips are still bad. Or you have the original data on a CF card, and the corrupts frame are apparent are apparent on the original recording.

Sorry to veer off topic a bit on this post.

Jeremy


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David Battistella
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 10, 2011 at 9:53:01 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "See? Two camps. :)"

Yeah. I guess i have been lucky. It's not like having a dropout, with a data stream corrupt frames can really mess things up. I think RED can be very helpful in recovering the data when this kind of thing has happened.

I have not personally seen the problem so I guess I am in the "lucky" camp.

I know that even with good practices bad stuff happens. CF cards are delicate things and I have seen a lot of people really be a bit to rough with them and jam them into the reader when all it takes is a gentle push. I think a thing like corrupt frames is inevitable but I also believe that it happens very rarely.

Just like at the end of a day on earth far many more good deeds have been done than bad.

David

Peace



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gerardo Campos
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 12, 2011 at 2:02:50 am

Carlos, I'm in the same position that you are; I'm writing the film of my life, an epic movie; and I'm a tech man, i love cameras and I have to say that RED One is a good camera but is far away to be a 4K camera, RED use a Bayer CMOS, that means less than a 40% of the definition to be a 4K camera. If I have to take a decition for your film I'll say wait for the Sony F65 with a real 8K sensor that will give you real 4K recording uncompressed, so be patient and make a real good work in your script.
Gerardo Campos
http://www.gecofilms.cl
(sorry for my bad english)

Gerardo Campos
http://www.gecoproducciones.cl


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Uli Plank
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 12, 2011 at 5:26:59 am

Yeah, if it's the film of your life, waiting another year or two means nothing, does it?

BTW, we measured more than 3K true resolution from the RED One at our labs, and the EPIC should be a bit better…

The Arri Alexa, which is all over the industry now, has 2K.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Kris Anderson
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 16, 2011 at 7:55:54 am

David, your idea of recording stereo is great. Really, a fantastic idea.


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David Battistella
Re: a 90min take in 4K
on May 16, 2011 at 8:57:06 am

[Kris Anderson] "David, your idea of recording stereo is great. Really, a fantastic idea."

Thanks, I think it really would be the only way to "double record" with the RED.

David

Do it today.



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