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24 fps vs 30 fps

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David Tate
24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 5:55:47 pm

We have a bunch of TV projects coming up and our DP want to shoot them at 24 fps. The Final Deliverable will be NTSC 29.97. These will all be shot on A Red camera. I have found that adding the pull down at the end has been a headache getting the final to look right with the added frames. Is there any easy way to convert the 24 fps red footage into 29.97 before editing and have it look good? Or should I just push for him to shoot at a 30 fps time base. Any input would be wonderful.
Thanks
Dave Tate
Chopshop


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 8:33:56 pm

[David Tate] "I have found that adding the pull down at the end has been a headache getting the final to look right with the added frames."

What process do you use for this?


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David Tate
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 8:52:53 pm

I have tried it a few different ways one project I just exported a full res movie and then brought it back into FCP and dropping it on a 29.97 timeline worked fine. Other Projects I have put into AE and then added the 3/2 pulldown and exported at 29.97.

I have made the pull down work I am just looking for a better workflow.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 9:06:14 pm

[David Tate] "I have tried it a few different ways one project I just exported a full res movie and then brought it back into FCP and dropping it on a 29.97 timeline worked fine. "

that's the exact wrong way to do it.

[David Tate] "Other Projects I have put into AE and then added the 3/2 pulldown and exported at 29.97."

That's a better way.

[David Tate] "I have made the pull down work I am just looking for a better workflow."

A real time hardware down-convert from 1080sf23.98 to NTSC 29.97 would be the "best" way.


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David Tate
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 9:15:15 pm

I understand a hardware downconvert is best I do do that for some tape deliverables but I also have to do digital delivery to stations in HD and they ask for 29.97. What I am asking is the DP only wants to shoot 24 fps is there a easy way to do the pull down when converting the Red files to prores for FCP. What would be the best workflow. OR should I push for 30fps based files??

Thanks
Dave


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 9:29:50 pm

[David Tate] "What I am asking is the DP only wants to shoot 24 fps is there a easy way to do the pull down when converting the Red files to prores for FCP."

You would have to log and transfer (or use whatever method you sue to get ProRes files) and then add pulldown to those files.

[David Tate] "OR should I push for 30fps based files??"

If you want a 30p look, then yes. I wouldn't though, I'd edit everything @ 23.98 and conform at the very end for NTSC.

Jeremy


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John Heagy
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 10:06:20 pm

Ah yes... the "cult of 24" is strong!

If you can work in a 24p "clean room" and scrub any 30p or 60i from your project, and can manage the dual master headaches (24p for timeline & web, and 60i for broadcast), then by all means shoot and edit 24p native.

If you don't need a true international broadcast master, then 30p is a great US master frame rate. It works equally well for US broadcasts and international web delivery. It avoids interlaced images completely. Shooting 24p means delivering in 60i. Progressive is the future.

A great example of 30p native is Food Network's "Diners, Drive Ins and Dives".

If your DP is the only one pushing, and doesn't have to deal with the headaches... push back.

John Heagy


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David Tate
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 10:21:37 pm

My DP and my boss are pushing for 24 since the last project we did at 29.97 with a Red Camera for this client said it looked too "Videoy". I am looking for a way to make them both happy and not be pulling my hair out at the deadline makeing the pulldown look good.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 10:33:56 pm

[David Tate] " I am looking for a way to make them both happy and not be pulling my hair out at the deadline makeing the pulldown look good."

Do you have a Kona card? Access to KiPro? Compressor?

Pulldown is falldown easy.


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David Tate
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 10:33:25 pm

Yes I have Compressor, a Kona3 Card, and a Blackmagic Multibridge but I don't have a HD Deck.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 10:37:45 pm

[David Tate] "Yes I have Compressor, a Kona3 Card, and a Blackmagic Multibridge but I don't have a HD Deck."

So is that two computers with the Blackmagic and the Kona?

If so, take the final master file, and from a 23.98p timeine set the Kona video output to 1080i29.97 (which will add proper 3:2 interlaced pulldown to the video signal) and record that signal on your Blackmagic machine (1080i29.97). This should leave you with a 1080i29.97 ProRes HQ file ready for tape.

You will have to account for the difference is 23.98 NDF and 29.97 DF if that timing is a concern for you.

Jeremy


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John Heagy
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 28, 2011 at 11:14:05 pm

LOL... yup, that would do it. One headache for another. I'm always amazed at the lengths...

[David Tate] "Is there any easy way to convert the 24 fps red footage into 29.97 before editing and have it look good?"

I missed the before editing nugget before.

Why before editing, and how were you adding pulldown before that produced the poor results?

Are you mixing native 30p or 60i into your timeline? That's really the only case adding 3:2 to 24p prior to edit makes sense.

Understand that by editing 24p this way produces a broken 3:2 timeline. It will "flip out" modern TVs that may have "cinema look" or (insert other marketing terms for 3:2 removal here) turned on, causing interlaced field flash frames at cut points. Cleanly returning a timeline edited this way back to 24p is all but impossible. Because of this any web deliverable will need to be deinterlaced to 30p causing repeat frames every fifth frame.

You would be acquiring in 24p, editing in 60i and delivering 30p for web.

The lengths...

John Heagy


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John Heagy
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps side note
on Mar 29, 2011 at 12:25:45 am

Interesting that "steppy" and soft, aka: "Film Look" is so vaunted... and smooth and crisp, aka: "Videoy" is so despised.

Even 30p is too "smooth" to some when compared to 24p. Or is it...? When comparing 30p to 24/60i... 24/60i will always be noticed, due to the inherent uneven 3:2 pulldown artifact. Is this what people have fallen in love with? The "unevenness"? Would native 24p, on a capable LCD monitor, compared to 30p be as noticeably different? Or would the "smoother" native 24p be rejected as well because it's "smoother" than it's uneven 24/60i broadcast version?

Did Charlie Chapin complain when the industry switched from 18 fps silent to 24 sound?

Are people buying 120 and 240 hz TVs?

John Heagy


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John Heagy
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps side note
on Apr 16, 2011 at 6:16:49 am

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-cameron-urges-industry-use-1735...

http://www.slashfilm.com/peter-jackson-explains-shooting-the-hobbit-48-fram...

Now that's what I call progress!

The "film look" redefined... fingers crossed!

Makes my advocating 30p seem modest, which is exactly what it is in comparison to 24p

I saw Sony's 8K camera projected at 4K at NAB. Of course it was shot at 24 because... ya know... it's better. They must have wanted to really show off the resolution and used a narrow shutter angle. I don't have to tell you want 24p looks like without appropriate motion blur. Not much point in shooting 8K, or even 4K, if motion blur kills the resolution. They should have shoot it 60 so as not to give us all headaches.

High resolution pictures (aka: sharp) with less motion blur and silky smooth motion... the horror!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 29, 2011 at 2:53:02 am

[John Heagy] "LOL... yup, that would do it. One headache for another. I'm always amazed at the lengths..."

Im sure you know With a KiPro, it's even easier. Can make a frame accurate serial controlled dub. I use it all the time for 24p programs for 60i broadcast. It's easy and relatively headache-less, and with tc.

As far as the 24p vs 30p difference, it's all subjective. If you can sell 30p to the powers that be, cool, but if people "want" 24p, then making a 60i master is far from impossible.

Have you ever seen a 120Hz TV?

And as far as 18 to 24fps I bet the marvel of adding recorded voice and sound (and listening to something that wasn't an organ during the show) was such a modern marvel that the difference in motion was soon learned and understood. People were probably more infested in hearing what actors and actresses sounded like.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on Mar 29, 2011 at 4:03:56 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "infested"

Or interested.


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Juan Carlos Aguirre
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on May 19, 2011 at 11:41:35 pm

Hello John, I have the same question so want to make sure I'm doing right..

[John Heagy] "You would be acquiring in 24p, editing in 60i and delivering 30p for web."

Using 23.98 Red file (Native or Proress Transcoded?)
Drag it and edit on 1080x1920 60i time line
Master to HDCam tape
use Kona card to down convert to NTSC to deliver SD files to cable stations.

I'm I right ?

Thanks

Juan Carlos Aguirre
HTV Studio
http://www.htvstudio.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on May 20, 2011 at 12:40:28 pm

[Juan Carlos Aguirre] "Drag it and edit on 1080x1920 60i time line
Master to HDCam tape "


Absolutely not. Not with Fcp. You add pulldown at the very end. A Kona card can add pulldown in real time, as well as real time sd down converts (with pulldown) from 1080,23.98. You will have to account for timing of 23.98 NDF to 29.97 df for broadcast if doing longer form work.


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John Heagy
Re: 24 fps vs 30 fps
on May 20, 2011 at 7:07:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "A Kona card can add pulldown in real time, as well as real time sd down converts (with pulldown) from 1080,23.98"

Yes that is the proper way assuming you don't have any 30p or 60i sources. The only caveat would be using the Kona to do down converts, it's not that great. If you can output to HDCam at 23.98 and let the deck handle the down convert it is far better. I've not found a better down convert aside from possibly a Teranex.

John Heagy


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