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Michael Kammes
EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 1:35:12 am

I'm seeing all over the interwebs that the data rate for the new Epic is 225MB/s. (Megabytes)

That's huge. Is this a typo and it should be 225mb/s? (Megabits)?

I'm attempting to calculate storage requirements.

Thanks!

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com


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Noah Kadner
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 2:45:48 am

I'd guess megabits were intended which would be about 28 Megabytes per second- still pretty hefty.

Noah

Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Canon 5D Mark II and 7D.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 3:53:45 am

Considering CF cards can do 90 megaBytes a second, 28 is nuffin'.


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Michael Kammes
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 5:10:03 am

RED RAW off the RED ONE is over 30MB/sec. So, 28 is actually a savings!

However, I finally got ahold of some other RED docs, and they also claim 225MB/s. Looks like some RED people are going to make some lucky storage manufacturers VERY happy.



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 5:55:15 am

I guess this camera isn't coming out for a while then. I haven't seen any module thing announced than can record 225MB/sec.

Things are moving so fast, though, I guess we will see rates like that on SSDs
in a few years.


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Michael Kammes
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 2:48:22 pm

I's shipping now. They're being made by hand, at least until Q1. I'm assuming they're somehow RAIDing CF cards / SSD drives together to achieve the bandwidth needed.

I have my feelers out the brain trust at RED - I'll report back when I get more info.



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 3:08:29 pm

Do tell. I'll add my hunch says 225 MB/sec is high.

Foundry Storm beta released today as well.


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Russell Lasson
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 10:11:48 pm

Up to 225MB/sec sounds right to me.

Don't forget that this camera is recording up to 120fps at 5K in RAW at 12-bit or 16-bit. It can also do something like 2:1 compression.

Currently REDONE records at up to REDCODE42. REDCODE36 was roughly 30MB/sec at 4K/24P. EPIC will record up to something like REDCODE225. 225Mb/sec doesn't come close to being enough for EPIC at the highest settings. REDONE surpasses 225Mb/sec already.

As far as recording media goes, I'm not sure if the current REDMAG SSD goes faster than 225MB/sec, but it should certainly handle up to 150MB/sec okay. These aren't the basic SSDs, as you can tell by the price. So whether you can record the maximum capability of the EPIC on the first generation RED media is still questionable, but I haven't read anything yet that suggests that you won't be able to.

So 225MB/sec!!!!!!!!! What the heck?

Don't worry. Just because the camera can do that data rate doesn't mean that you have to use it on everything. You'll be able to choose the quality level for whatever you feel comfortable with. Even though the REDONE can record up to REDCODE42, I've heard people say several time that they were fine with REDCODE28 or REDCODE36. There will be plenty of flexibility and I think that even big budget projects might opt to record at a lower data rate. But how cool would it be shoot with a camera that CAN record at 225MB/sec :)

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 10:59:59 pm

Well, well. Looking around I found these that claim a sustained write of 250 and max to 275, 285 read.

http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/solid-state-drives/sata-ii/2-5--sata-...

Yowsers.

So, considering 225MB/sec, that's 13.5 GB/min. 15 minutes of record time on 200 Gigs.

Michael, you are absolutely correct in that storage companies will probably be very happy come Epic time.

Jeremy


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Russell Lasson
Re: EPIC Data Rate
on Dec 1, 2010 at 11:15:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, considering 225MB/sec, that's 13.5 GB/min. 15 minutes of record time on 200 Gigs.

Michael, you are absolutely correct in that storage companies will probably be very happy come Epic time."


At what point does data become unmanageable? 225MB/sec? 300MB/sec? 1GB/sec? I don't know, but I thought that 85MB/sec on the SI2K cameras was bad! That looks like it was just the beginning!

Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Noah Kadner
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 2:53:22 am

He'd know this one...

Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Canon 5D Mark II and 7D.


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David Battistella
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:02:38 am

This would represent REDCOE at it's MAX data rate which is about 3:1 compression.

REDCODE is wavelet based compression which when compressed to 2.5:1 is mathematically lossless. That also means it is visually lossless.

The high data rate announced would represent a REDCODE that can record 2.5:1 compression.

RC 28 is about 10:1
RC 36 is about 7:1
RC 42 is about 5:1

CHE was recorded at about 12:1 compression.

Hope this is helpful

Peace



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Michael Kammes
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:27:25 am

Heh.

Graeme replied to my query on this on twitter and confirmed 225MB/s.

This opens a whole 'nother can o' worms:

-How is the RAIDing being done with CF Cards?
-Offload from RAID to lcoal storage workflow?
-Will RedRocket be able to handle the file in RT? If not, what is the time?

The list goes on and on....



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:29:38 am

[Michael Kammes] "-How is the RAIDing being done with CF Cards?"

I highly doubt you will be able to shoot to the current crop of CF cards. It will be SSD.


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Michael Kammes
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:47:31 am

That was a brain cramp, I mean SSD, of course. Thanks!



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com


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Russell Lasson
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:52:11 am

[Michael Kammes] "-How is the RAIDing being done with CF Cards?"

SSDs won't need to be raided. They should be able to keep up. (hopefully!)

[Michael Kammes] "-Offload from RAID to lcoal storage workflow?"

All depends on the data rate that you choose. But if it's full data rate, I would have a tower on set with a RAID attached. Use the RED Station set up and copy over eSATA.

http://www.red.com/store/media

[Michael Kammes] "-Will RedRocket be able to handle the file in RT? If not, what is the time?"

At 5K full, it won't. But I seem to remember that it will at 5K half. Can't find the thread though. But it was also stated that rocket optimization is still going on, so who knows where it will end up.

Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Graeme Nattress
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 1:23:57 pm

REDCODE operates over a range of data rates. You will be able to pick the data rate based on the speed of your media (CF or SSD) and based on your choice of how low a compression or high a compression you wish to use.

The highest data rate supported is that 200 odd MegaBytes per second, and yes, that needs to go on the SSD module.

REDRocket handles the 5k indeed, but I've not played with that myself yet.

For copying, yes indeed REDStation with eSata over to a RAID or whatever. If you're using a more moderate data rate - I think I was using around RC48 for some testing, copying is extremely fast, even over FW800 to my laptop internal drive.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Michael Kammes
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 2:20:24 pm

I'm now hearing directly from RED that "the version of the mags will be about 160MBytes/s at the highest", and of course this is dependent on the resolution and flavor of REDCODE.

So, who knows where the 225MB came from. Guess I'll have to wait and see with test footage (like the 5D and 7D; proposed Data Rates and actual Date Rates have some latitude)

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com


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David Battistella
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 2:34:24 pm

[Michael Kammes] "So, who knows where the 225MB came from."

It comes from the idea of what a maximum frame rate would be for wavelet compression schemes.


David

Peace



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:04:41 pm

[Michael Kammes] "(like the 5D and 7D; proposed Data Rates and actual Date Rates have some latitude"

Yeah, as you know, this is no where even close to the 5d/7d.

No offense to anyone, but I really hope those cameras go away for video really soon.


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Noah Kadner
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:11:14 pm

Talking about the 5D/7D going away for video? I don't expect that will happen until a camcorder exists with interchangeable lenses at a similar price point. Though definitely newer camcorders with DSLR sourced sensors such as the Panasonic AF100 and Sony NEX-VG10 will start to take away the midrange and upper end prosumers that were using those DSLRs as video cameras.

Noah

Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Canon 5D Mark II and 7D.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:35:50 pm

[Noah Kadner] "Talking about the 5D/7D going away for video? I don't expect that will happen until a camcorder exists with interchangeable lenses at a similar price point. "

But aren't people starting to see the veil has been lifted? The tremendous amounts of noise, the lack of resolution, what I like to call the false latitude, crap sound, no timecode to sync with anything else, bad rolling shutter, skew, did I forget anything? Oh. Yeah. No way to hook to a real monitor while you're shooting. That's always fun to try and explain to clients. And overheating.

It's maddening. All for tremendous amounts of depth of field for a look that people will eventually get sick of.

[Noah Kadner] "will start to take away the midrange and upper end prosumers that were using those DSLRs as video cameras."

I surely hope so. At least they are video cameras.

Jeremy


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David Battistella
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:41:44 pm

I have to say I agree jeremy,

I see some nice, short burst quickie, nice DOF looking images but as a tool? no. The more I see guys extending their jonsons with a 7D built up with every piece of tinker toy adaptor from Zacuto to Zoom H4 to build a "muscle car". The more I have to laugh.

Just go buy something that is built for making films and is thought out that way. Having video on a DSLR is a "feature", it's not the "Purpose".

The 7D revolution is a mechano set for adult males who like to take photo's and want to "look" like film makers.

I did one shoot with a 7D along side a RED and had to toss EVERY FRAME of 7D footage. While all over the net people are saying they can mix this footage? NOT!

rant over.

David

Peace



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Michael Kammes
Re: Paging Graeme Nattress
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:13:59 pm

Hehe, after I typed that I kinda figured I'd get a comment ;)

I'd agree.

To the original point, the reported data rate of the Canon cameras for video were off - enough of a difference from the ACTUAL data rate, that it made calculating mass storage for many, many hours difficult.

225 MB/s and 100 MB/s is a huge difference which makes anticipation and planning to be OK on storage difficult - especially when dealing with SANS where dozens, if not hundreds, of TB are necessary.



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com


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