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Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.

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Jeremy Garchow
Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 11, 2010 at 11:50:51 pm

So we went from exactly 0 Red projects to exactly 2 Red projects, both on parallel delivery paths.

Project 1 will be 4k @ 23.98, Project 2 will be 4k@ 23.98 with a few 2k @ 120fos thrown in for good measure. Both deliveries will be 1080p.

The first project is relatively "simple". It will involve green screen Red composited with 5D BG plates. It will be 5 separate pieces, 5 separate one take shots. My plan is to do most of everything in After Effects as there's no reason to edit the video and I'd like to pull keys in AE CS5. Anyone have any experience with taking the raw Red files in to CS5 and compositing? How'd it work out for you?

The second project is a more traditional edit. My plan is to log and transfer the footage. Don't know what resolution yet (getting test footage on Monday). I'd like to go native if possible, but not sure what performance costs this entails. If they are grandiose, then I'll probably of ProRes Proxy to later conform back to RAW in Color using FCP following one of the Red Whitepaper workflows. Using a 8 core 2.66 and fast raid/Kona3. I know, not the newest setup in the world.

I have solid advice to use RedCineX for yet another workflow, but I'm a bit confused by that process. If I am understanding this correctly, I'd use RedCineX for a one light, render at the resolution/codec of choice, import and edit in FCP then use Clipfinder(?) to conform an FCP XML back to Red raw then send to Color. Is that how that works? No, I don't have a RedRocket and I am sticking to software this round (besides the K3). Clipfinder seems to be in some sort of perpetual state of Beta. Does it work with the latest builds of everything for Red?

Thanks for your time, and sorry if this all rehash from other posts. I have searched and read, but felt the need to post anyway.

Jeremy


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Uli Plank
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 7:16:22 am

Regarding the compositing project, you'll be fine with AE CS5, working natively. We've been through such a project recently, and it was a breeze with R3D footage and Keylight.

For the editing, why don't you go Premiere Prop if you have CS5 anyway? Works fine.

Or go ProRes, if you like FCP better. Do you first light in RCX, using REDLogFilm, get your color neutral, fill the histogram well and transcode to ProRes 422 HQ (or 4444, if you are a quality fanatic). Edit and grade to you liking. No need to go the complex re-conform route for a 1080 delivery (like HDTV or Blu-ray), there's plenty of room to grade in REDLogFilm.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 7:33:46 am

Thanks so much for the response, Uli.

Just not ready for Premiere. I know AE, I don't know Premeire.

RedLogFilm, huh? Why not RedColor that seems to be what is recommended for MX sensors? Log will preserve everything until the "real" grade I imagine?

Is the conform process with Clipfinder that complicated? Project 2 is two 30 second spots.

Just curious as I wouldn't mind grading from the raw in Color. I guess if I go that route the log and transfer method is best...

Appreciate the advice,

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 4:40:16 pm

Hey Uli,

I see where you are going with RedLog. Thanks so much for your time.

Jeremy


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Alex Elkins
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 5:33:32 pm

Hi Jeremy,


[Jeremy Garchow] "Is the conform process with Clipfinder that complicated? Project 2 is two 30 second spots."

Clipfinder is very straightforward to use. Simply export an XML of your offline and then use the 'Run conform on FCP XML file' function. You tell it to reconnect to the proxy files which can then be sent to Color to grade native.
You can also render the offline files using Clipfinder. Personally I prefer it to the RED tools or Log and Transfer. Incidentally, you can use it as a sort of database for any .mov assets, not just RED files.

As Uli says, grading the ProRes HQ (or 4444) 'offline' files will yield excellent quality for a 1080p output. However, IMO if you don't have a REDRocket then the time spent rendering 1080p high quality ProRes files is rarely recovered. This is particularly true with shorter projects, I think.
I tend to go for an SD offline and not worry too much about quality (as long as you can see enough detail and your client understands the process!), then link back to raw files for grading. (Although now we have a Rocket this has changed - highly recommended if you're using RED more often).


Good luck!

Alex Elkins

Salad Daze Films - Freshly Tossed
Check out my latest addition to the Creative Cow Reels Section


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 6:10:22 pm

[Alex Elkins] "You tell it to reconnect to the proxy files which can then be sent to Color to grade native."

Meaning Red generated proxy, correct? Which one?

[Alex Elkins] "Personally I prefer it to the RED tools"

I know it's a personal preference, but how so?

[Alex Elkins] "(Although now we have a Rocket this has changed - highly recommended if you're using RED more often)."

If it comes to that, definitely. Does this mean you have a dedicated Red Rocket computer? You can't have a Kona and a Rocket in the same machine, right?

Thanks for your time,

Jeremy


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David Battistella
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 6:16:21 pm

Jeremy,

I've used this workflow very simply and with 100% confidence in any length of project.


1. Edited in FCP with transcode OFFLINE media created with clipfinder (or redrushes)
2. Exported XML file of FINAL FCP SEQUENCE
3. Opened Clipfinder and ran CONFORM FCP PROJECT with XML file to create NEW file.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT NOT to rely on the RESIZE the SEQUENCES to 1920x1080 in clipfinder.

4. Opened NEW XML in FCP and set the sequence by hiting apple key "0" to the following. CUSTOM 2048x1024, 23.98, etc
5. used SEND TO COLOR command to open sequence in COLOR
6. CHANGE floating point to 10-bit in COLOR
7. Change EXPORT size of FINAL project in USER settings (it is very important to do this set within COLOR or it will not work!)

***ADDING TWO THINGS HERE to eliminate any frozen renders you might get. (DOWNLOAD LATEST VERSION OF BETA CLIP FINDER)

8. Close Color project
9. Open Clipfinder
10 In the tools menu run the Color Project through "FIX LOOPING BUG IN COLOR PROJECT" navigate to the Color project file and select it.
11. Reopen in Apple Color and proceed.

You now have FULL access to the R3D files and can use the RED TAB in Color and render out great Prores 4444 or Uncompressed without any problems.

Peace



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David Battistella
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 6:18:39 pm

and remember, It never matters what size proxy you send to Color, you always have access to the full range of r3d data in Color, but tools like FLUT are not enabled yet in the Color RED tab.

While RCX has a good toolset it lacks the full functionality (secondaries, garbage mattes, etc) that a program like Color offers while the quality they spit out is exactly the same.

I have found that the GPU of Color is pretty fast but Color is also REDROCKET enabled and can use some of that power to render and display files.



David

Peace



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Alex Elkins
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 6:45:52 pm

Hi Jeremy,

First off, I can second everything David Battistella has said, he's spot on. Follow those instructions and you won't go far wrong.


[Jeremy Garchow] "[Alex Elkins] "You tell it to reconnect to the proxy files which can then be sent to Color to grade native."

Meaning Red generated proxy, correct? Which one?"


Correct. Any.



[Jeremy Garchow] "[Alex Elkins] "(Although now we have a Rocket this has changed - highly recommended if you're using RED more often)."

If it comes to that, definitely. Does this mean you have a dedicated Red Rocket computer? You can't have a Kona and a Rocket in the same machine, right?"


We've only just got hold of the Rocket so haven't yet tested in conjunction with Kona (although I've read some people saying that it does work and others saying not). Actually, what we're doing is a little unusual in that we tend to take the Rocket on location in a PCIe enclosure and do most of the transcoding on set with a laptop (finishing off any remaining transcodes back in the office but still within the PCIe enclosure). What we use is similar to the Maxx Digital Mobile Rocket, but better as it has 3 PCIe slots.
For anyone interested we've been able to run the REDRocket + Fiber Channel RAID-5 storage with a laptop using this setup. It's pretty cool!


All the best,
Alex Elkins

Salad Daze Films - Freshly Tossed
Check out my latest addition to the Creative Cow Reels Section


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 6:57:02 pm

[Alex Elkins] "For anyone interested we've been able to run the REDRocket + Fiber Channel RAID-5 storage with a laptop using this setup. It's pretty cool!"

Say what? More info please....


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Alex Elkins
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 7:19:08 pm

Hi Jeremy,

You can check out a picture of the back panel of this unit which includes some preliminary test results here: http://twitpic.com/35kj5v (not sure if you have to be signed in to Twitter to see it. Let me know if there's a problem viewing. It connects to the laptop via the Express card slot.

We're still testing the unit getting it running as fast as possible, plus there are a couple of mods still to do to the housing itself, but the picture hopefully gives you the gist of what it does. The bottleneck is the laptop Express slot as it is limited to 1x PCI speed. Nothing we can do about that, however you can also connect it to a Mac Pro and get 8x speed, the benefit being that you actually add PCIe lanes to your Mac Pro.

Twitter @postbluetv to keep up to date with the testing results.


All the best,
Alex

Salad Daze Films - Freshly Tossed
Check out my latest addition to the Creative Cow Reels Section


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 7:33:30 pm

Awesome. So it's a custom built chassis, eh?

FLUT not being available in Color is kind of a bummer, but I'm sure I'll survive.

I thank you all for your help.

Jeremy


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Alex Elkins
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 7:42:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Awesome. So it's a custom built chassis, eh?"

It's a custom modified chassis. The actual metal case and PCI backplane are bought but we are drilling bits and bobs onto and into it to gear it specifically towards REDRocket use.



[Jeremy Garchow] "FLUT not being available in Color is kind of a bummer, but I'm sure I'll survive."

FLUT is good but with the RED controls already in Color you can easily get some amazing results.


Good luck with the shoot/post.

Alex

Twitter: @postbluetv
http://www.PostBlue.tv
Shot on RED, Post on FCP/Color: Short Capoeira Film


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Graeme Nattress
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 7:50:37 pm

There's no FLUT control in Color, but the FLUT math is all in there, so when you adjust ISO you get a rolloff protection still, just not the fine control. For fine control, try the brightness control which is FLUT enabled also.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 12, 2010 at 8:10:03 pm

Excellent to know.

Thank you, kind sirs.

Jeremy


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Uli Plank
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 13, 2010 at 8:20:23 am

You see, there are so many ways to work with RED footage, there is no single right or wrong.

Clipfinder is a great tool, and the beta Color plug-in you find somewhere at reduser is already Rocket enabled.

Unfortunately, even after applying Color Fixer, editing with proxies is not 100% safe. We have seen rendering stalls in Color on complex projects, which didn't show with re-wrapped QTs.

There are caveats, though: take care never to go over 100 IRE when adjusting in the RED tab, cause Color will clip on import, even if Broadcast safe is disabled. Plus, qualifiers in the Secondary Room will always access the RAW data, which is pretty flat.

Alternatively, have a closer look at Resolve.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 13, 2010 at 5:37:50 pm

Thanks, Uli.

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 21, 2010 at 4:34:19 pm

First of all, thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this board, and those who I have called/iChat and asked for help. It is much appreciated.

Second, the Red system is an awesome system and I am lucky that I have been introduced to it later in the game. I really feel like Red is about to really hit it's stride. The workflow is really not that bad, just time consuming. It seems to be worth it.

Third, the two shoots are done and things are going well. I of course have more questions. The information that is out there is extensively varied, overwhelming and some of it is old already (over a year) :0)

Red Rocket:

If we continue this Red path, a Red Rocket is of course going to be necessary. I can see that now.

Is there a cable snake that comes with the rocket? All I see is two DVI ports. I also see the breakout box. What would one need to monitor single link 422 SDI for now?

Will the Red Rocket allow single link 10 bit 422 SDI monitoring out of RedCineX? How about out of anything else? CS5? I know it won't happen in FCP, but maybe Color?

Is anyone running a Kona and a Red Rocket in the same machine, or is it bite the bullet and get your own damn MacPro for the Rocket? I have read it both ways.

I see the Mobile Rocket. Does that allow real time debayer/playback on a laptop to a 422 SDI monitor? If so, maybe we just share the red rocket in a mobile rocket between the studio and set until we figure out what we need and want?

Red Metadata/RocketCineX:

Does all metadata get saved to the RMD file that is NOT anything having to do with Color Science in REDCineX as well? ie, I know the color info gets saved to the RMD, but all the boring stuff that no one wants to talk about like clip naming, log notes, etc etc that are crucial to me as editor; that info gets saved as well when saving an RMD, right? My limited testing showed that it didn't, but I might have screwed up. Is there anytime where automatically saving RMDs is a bad idea? Meaning, is it ok to leave the "always save RMD" on all the time knowing that it will always save whatever I have done to color and text?

If it does get saved, and I want to change something after my proxy creation, how do I update FCP with my redCineX ProRes proxy files with the modified RMD metadata?

Is there any chance of helpful user clip names or should I use other metadata fields and subsequent FCP columns to name them something helpful for the edit process? ( I know not to edit the R3D names/folders/structure, I am strictly talking from a metadata standpoint. Having been using a mostly P2 MXF background in which metadata in infinitely changeable (even userclip name) and being allowed to track back and send to FCP via XML through the edit process has been great and something I'd like to explore with R3D workflows).

FLUT:

Seems to work swimmingly but sometimes it will clip (right goal post is raised) if other parameters are moved before moving FLUT. I think it happens when using the Gain tool (raising whites) and then FLUT, it will clip. Again, haven't done extensive testing yet, but I have repeated the problem. Perhaps I'm missing something, like don't use the gain tool, but use the brightness or curve tool, or something to that effect. I guess it could also make sense that one would raise the white level, and FLUT would then be "ignored".

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I do appreciate the clarity here.

Jeremy


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Uli Plank
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 21, 2010 at 7:50:39 pm

"IIs there a cable snake that comes with the rocket? All I see is two DVI ports. I also see the breakout box. What would one need to monitor single link 422 SDI for now?"

Nothing. It'll come with an extra slot piece with two SDi connectors for single stream.

"Will the Red Rocket allow single link 10 bit 422 SDI monitoring out of RedCineX?" Yes.

"How about out of anything else? CS5? I know it won't happen in FCP, but maybe Color?" No.

"Is anyone running a Kona and a Red Rocket in the same machine, or is it bite the bullet and get your own damn MacPro for the Rocket?" I run it with a BM SDI card without problems.

"Does all metadata get saved to the RMD file that is NOT anything having to do with Color Science in REDCineX as well? ie, I know the color info gets saved to the RMD, but all the boring stuff that no one wants to talk about like clip naming, log notes, etc etc that are crucial to me as editor; that info gets saved as well when saving an RMD, right?"
Storm by The Foundry is going to do all that and more.

"If it does get saved, and I want to change something after my proxy creation, how do I update FCP with my redCineX ProRes proxy files with the modified RMD metadata?" Not at all. But you can use ClipFinder to update metadata in Color.

"Is there any chance of helpful user clip names or should I use other metadata fields and subsequent FCP columns to name them something helpful for the edit process?"
No problem, you can name it any way you like inside FCP, it carries internal IDs.

"Seems to work swimmingly but sometimes it will clip (right goal post is raised) if other parameters are moved before moving FLUT. I think it happens when using the Gain tool (raising whites) and then FLUT, it will clip." Check Graeme's comments on reduser about FLUT – he made it.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 22, 2010 at 7:14:11 pm

Thanks, Uli.

[Uli Plank] "Nothing. It'll come with an extra slot piece with two SDi connectors for single stream."

Meaning it takes up another PCI slot?

[Uli Plank] "I run it with a BM SDI card without problems."

Just curious, what GPU do you have?

[Uli Plank] "Storm by The Foundry is going to do all that and more."

Cool.

[Uli Plank] "Not at all. But you can use ClipFinder to update metadata in Color."

Text or Color metadata?

[Uli Plank] "No problem, you can name it any way you like inside FCP, it carries internal IDs."

I understand, but I like the text metadata to travel with my footage, not the FCP (or whatever) project. Any chances of that at this point without Storm?

[Uli Plank] "on reduser"

Oh man, do I have to? ;)

One more new question that I can't find any info about. Out of RedCineX, what software scaling is recommended out the eight possible options?

Thanks again,

Jeremy


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Uli Plank
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 22, 2010 at 8:27:42 pm

"Meaning it takes up another PCI slot?"

You can drill holes to avoid that…

"Just curious, what GPU do you have?"

Works with both GTX 285 and Quadro FX 4800.

"Text or Color metadata?" Color only.

"I understand, but I like the text metadata to travel with my footage, not the FCP (or whatever) project. Any chances of that at this point without Storm?" Yes. Get CS5 and add metadata in Premiere.

"Out of RedCineX, what software scaling is recommended out the eight possible options?"

Whatever you like. Isn't it described well enough? From soft to crisp.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 22, 2010 at 8:33:06 pm

[Uli Plank] "Yes. Get CS5 and add metadata in Premiere."

Cool, that's easy, I have it.

[Uli Plank] "Whatever you like. Isn't it described well enough? From soft to crisp."

OK, I see I might be asking too many questions.

There's 5 smoothers, 2 sharpers, and a smoothest.

Clear as mud?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Are you ready? More Red newbie questions.
on Nov 23, 2010 at 6:22:22 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Uli Plank] "on reduser"

Oh man, do I have to? ;)"


OK. I found the thread after a lot of reading. Thanks, makes more sense now.


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