FORUMS: list search recent posts

Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder

COW Forums : RED Camera

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Edward Koehler
Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 22, 2010 at 1:50:27 pm

I'm working with RED 4K, 3K and 2K _F proxies in a 1920x1080 ProRes422HQ (444 and 10bit YUV enabled) timeline, FCP 6, '09 8-core MP 8GB RAM. I edited using _P proxies then, I rebuilt the sequence using _F proxies.

The footage in FCP looks good, but when I export QT self-contained what I get is a very ugly ProRes422HQ QT with color banding, quantization, juddering pans and actor movement, and a gamma that looks washed out. It looks this way in both QT7 and FCP, including the rough pans.

I believe I have all the latest and correct codecs, etc. I'm using the FCS2 installer, but I believe at some point I updated both the QT codec to v4.2 and the REDCODE color codec to v4.0 beta 2 because it was suggested somewhere in the REDuser.net forum.

The only thing that looks like RED should when I export from FCP is uncompressed, but then it will not playback in QT or FCP.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 22, 2010 at 4:36:50 pm

[Edward Koehler] "I'm working with RED 4K, 3K and 2K _F proxies in a 1920x1080 ProRes422HQ (444 and 10bit YUV enabled) "

you are working in various Rasters, using 8 bit proxy frames when you are editing / delivering in 1080- you would be better to use current RED software and convert the files to ProRes to edit with- you will get far better results

"but when I export QT self-contained what I get is a very ugly ProRes422HQ QT with color banding, quantization, juddering pans and actor movement, and a gamma that looks washed out. It looks this way in both QT7 and FCP, including the rough pans. "

ALL of your work is being done in 8bit and with RT Extreme turned on, when you output via QT- everything stays in 8bit- hence your issues with Banding etc.

"I believe I have all the latest and correct codecs, etc. " "2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6"

IMHO - How does using an older version of the OS and FCP qualify you to be working in the latest codecs ? Your version of FCP is more than 1 year old and not as well suited for the latest RED files and say FCS3 and your 10.5 leopard machine has a 2007 date of release.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 22, 2010 at 6:14:42 pm

Thanks for the reply, Gary.

I'm reverting to the original FCS2 Installer now. That was a recommendation someone made in the other forum, in response to a poster with a similar set-up to mine. Knowing it's best to be current with RED I just followed that advice.

The _F proxies I'm working with were generated in REDAlert. I initially attempted to rebuild the sequence with transcoded ProRes's generated in REDRushes, but those ProRes's suffered the same quantization and banding.

I'm going to transcode to ProRes422HQ again, using current software. Would REDCineX be best?

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index


gary adcock
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 22, 2010 at 9:09:02 pm

[Edward Koehler] "The _F proxies I'm working with were generated in REDAlert. "

Unless you re-graded them there, most use the generated in camera verisons.

It is still a 8bit proxy file that needs to be linked to the original R3D thru QT, to get any higher than that quality you need to force the relinking via Color or the like.

Conversion via RedcineX or Red Alert to your working ProRes file offers a simple direct way to control the quality vs from the onset.

You are working a system below RED's recommendation for playback- handling 4K playback over a fw 800 drive- RED suggests eSata as a minimum for storage.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 22, 2010 at 10:24:31 pm

Unfortunately, what I received from the client were R3Ds only, no other file directories or camera proxies. I don't know what went on there. It was ultra low-budget.
I agree about eSata vs. FW800. I was ready to purchase and install an eSata card in my MP and then I was talked out of it by two other professionals who both use just FW800 with no issues. But can the quantization and color banding, or the pan judder be caused by insufficient data rate?
The nature of the footage is rather low light, with dark background and the areas I'm observing quantization is in the low-light shadows, and the color banding is occurring in the fall-off of pools of light.
It's like a compression worst case scenario, but I still was expecting better from ProRes422HQ. What I'm observing looks a lot like posterization, especially in the fall-off and the shadows (dark wood grain for instance). Does that sound normal ProRes performance with RED?
Again, thanks for all your help.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 22, 2010 at 10:33:37 pm

I forgot to mention it's PAL/50Hz, could this be why I'm getting judder?

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index


Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 23, 2010 at 2:34:46 am

Ok.
After reverting back to the FCS2 Installer, I changed the sequence settings to 'render in 8-bit YUV' from 10-bit YUV, set field dominance to 'none'(default was 'upper'), removed slight speed effects on a couple juddering clips back to 100% from approx. 130%...
and now everything is looking great.
There's just a slight judder every now and then on some pans/movement, which appears only on my LCD. The judder is not noticeable on my CRT monitor.
Overall, this is leaps and bounds beyond what I was getting before, and I'm quite satisfied with the quality of the ProRes422HQ image. No more color banding or quantization to speak of. Gamma is much improved.
Thanks Gary! You can put another tally mark on your slate under the category 'pup shown back to path'.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 23, 2010 at 1:45:54 pm

You are welcome, thank you for the kind words, I hope that I was not too hard on you

Your judder issue may be a couple of things, first of which is camera movement, I am still finding people that are still panning too fast for the camera's recording speed. Less frames mean slower panning speed is essential.

ProRes HQ is roughly the equivalent quality to capturing as single link HDCamSR, with proper file conversion to start with, you should not be having too many issues.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 24, 2010 at 10:19:50 pm

I'm still seeing judder, actually I would call it more of a frame stutter at this point. It seems to be happening most with the 4K footage. It's also inconsistent, effecting different parts of the clips from one playback to another. It happens in QT7 and FCP, and even on DVD playback with DVCPro50 compression (actually it's worst on DVD). It happens when I playback from the FW800 drive and from my desktop.

I succeeded in eliminating some of the panning judder I was seeing by creating a new timeline and removing all speed effects. I also replaced my reverse effects with Nattress GReverse because it shifts the fields as well as reversing and I thought that may have been contributing to the problem. I also tried applying a minimal flicker filter, then a motion blur at "0"... both to no avail. The frame stutter persists.

I searched the old REDuser.net forums and came up with this thread in which a few users describe the exact issue I'm experiencing but there was no resolution except to get a Kona...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20870&page=4

Any ideas what might be causing this and what I might be able to do next? Thanks again.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 25, 2010 at 2:14:55 pm

[Edward Koehler] "I'm still seeing judder, actually I would call it more of a frame stutter at this point. It seems to be happening most with the 4K footage."

Please tell me you missed the part about working in 4K- this resolution is NOT supported on NLE.
Adobe After Effects is the Only Software I know of that can actually handle that resolution without hardware. FCP does not support frame sizes beyond 2048x 1566 for output

Sorry but I do not see the need to work in 4K, I feel that it is a huge waste of time, when at this time in the world delivery is done in 2K for virtually ALL TV, and Theatrical Release. Proper file management and consistent naming would allow for a proper 4K delivery on HARDWARE based finishing systems like Scratch, Pablo, Lustre and others. T

"I searched the old REDuser.net forums and came up with this thread in which a few users describe the exact issue I'm experiencing but there was no resolution except to get a Kona..."


Yeah, that was the next comment- IMHO you need to have a true 2K card to handle footage at this level, and in the desktop world that is AJA, again- something that you should have read on the Red.com workflow section. See while BMD makes mainstream products for most users, when you start pushing beyond the bounds of SMPTE's HD spec's, only the Kona's hold up, that's why they OEM cards for high-end systems like Autodesk and Avid, and why nearly all of the really high end disc recorders ( Stwo, Rave, KG,) use Aja hardware internally.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 25, 2010 at 10:21:37 pm

I was following a workflow recommended by David in the REDuser.net forums here (7 posts from top): http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34206&highlight=ProRes+Bert

Here are the settings I've been using:
Sequence: 2048x1152 / Custom 16:9 / Square / Field Dom.: None / 25fps /
Compressor: ProRes422HQ (100% / 25fps / 444 enabled
Video Process.: 8-bit YUV / Motion filtering: Best

I then export QT self-contained ProRes422HQ 1920x1080 25p. Playing this back in QT7 displays the 'drifting' stutter. What I mean by drifting, is that it's inconsistent and affects different areas in separate playback instances and to differing degrees.

After eliminating nearly all of the speed effects and switching to GReverse it's improved slightly, but it's still happening and seems to get more noticeable with each compression from ProRes to DVCPro50 to DVD. Sometimes the DVD plays back almost fine, and the next time it's stuttering terribly.

I think I'll try rebuilding the sequence again, in a new project, on a new 2K ProResHQ (8bit YUV 4:4:4 enabled) timeline using the _H proxies this time instead of the _F proxies.

If that doesn't work, I'll try going back and transcoding all new ProRes422HQ 1920x1080 ProRes's and finish to ProRes422HQ.

I can't pick up a Kona right now. I would love to whenever I can, but for this project I just can't do it and I have to find some way to finish with what I've got.

Once I get a stable sequence I'm sending it to Color for a beauty grade (it's a female artist). I don't mind if I can't access the raw R3D's in Color, I agree with your statement about finishing to 1920x1080 (for this project anyway).

Does that sound decent? I hope I'm not sabotaging myself again.

Thanks again.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

Uli Plank
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 26, 2010 at 6:18:29 am

The stuttering may have different reasons: no computer without a REDRocket can play 2K proxies fluently right now if you are using the proxies. There's a reason why this is not recommended in the whitepaper.

Go the ProRes HQ route, but don't forget to switch to 10 bit YUV, ProRes is 10 bit, not 8.

If your DVD is stuttering, you should compress the audio to AC3. In my experience, burned DVDs (other than replicated ones) stutter with uncompressed audio.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 26, 2010 at 8:30:44 pm

Thanks for the insight, Uli.

I've tried working with the ProRes's transcoded via RedRushes and they looked washed out, with improper gamma and a bit too noisy in the shadow detail. I'm trying to contact the DP and DIT to ascertain the camera build.

I'm onto REDCineX now, and just going over the interface so I can proceed properly. Thanks for the tip about AC3 audio on DVD. I'll try that. It just seems there is something else going on, because my QT exports stutter as well.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 27, 2010 at 11:02:23 pm

Alright...

I've been testing a clip with REDCineX exporting to ProRes422HQ. It looks great in FCP (same ProRes 10bit 444enabled settings as above), with the same gamma and saturation I set up in REDCineX. So I next tested a send to Color. It looks great in Color too. I adjust and render, send it back to FCP. Still looking great.

Then... I export a self-contained QT using current settings, open it in QT7 and it looks washed out and a bit too grainy and posterized than ProRes422HQ should look. It's like I'm right back where I started before the adjustments above which cleaned up the ProRes export for me.

Just to check, I then open the same clip in FCP and it looks great.

What is going on with QT7, there is some sort of Gamma inconsistency going on, but I definitely have FCP color compatability enabled. I was running REDCode QT Codec v3.9, but I just updated to QT Codec v4.2 to see if there was any improvement... But there is no improvement.
Just as worrying is that I'm still noticing the 'drifting' frame stutter issue.

Can someone please help me understand what is happening?

I found several examples of what I think is the same or very similar issue with washed-out ProRes in QT on the REDuser.net forum, but none of it is really helping me find a solution...

Washed out ProRes in QT-

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44323&page=4

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43841&highlight=Workflow

Thanks for your help so far, I just hope you're still with me.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 28, 2010 at 12:55:24 am

And now for some reason REDCineX (build 261) is refusing to open any clip. ?

EDIT- It's working if I drag a clip into the player window. Sorry I should've tried that before posting but I'm getting very confused overall.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 28, 2010 at 2:12:41 pm

Here's the versions of software I'm using...

FCStudio2 Installer

REDCineX build 261

REDAlert version 21.0.0

REDRushes version 21.0.0(1)

FCP 6.06

QT Pro 7.6.6 (RED QT codec v3.9 & tested v4.1)

Again, the issues I'm experiencing are:
1.) washed out, posterized footage in QT7 when exported from FCP6 in ProRes.
2.) frame stutter.

I was able to achieve a decent ProRes export by making the adjustments outlined in the post above, but the frame stutter persisted.

I then tested ProRes422HQ QT exports from REDCineX, the footage looks fine in FCP and Color, but the bad QT exports returned and again the frame stutter persists.

Can anyone please offer a solution? Or direct me to someone who may be able to offer a solution?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 29, 2010 at 11:37:01 pm

[Edward Koehler] "I was able to achieve a decent ProRes export by making the adjustments outlined in the post above, but the frame stutter persisted. "

Are you still working with 4K files in a 1080 timeline or have you converted all to 1080?

FW 800 is barely fast enough for 1080 ProResHQ if you have more than on drive on the chain or if the drive is more than 70% full.

Once again- the RED software wants to be working with the latests hardware and software version- you are a generation back on both your Apps and your OS and that too is part of the problem.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 30, 2010 at 12:19:18 am

The 4K _F proxies were used only to re-assemble a new sequence atop my old _P proxy sequence, which was 1080. The sequence settings were then changed to 2048x1152, and each clip was adjusted in the motion tab to fit the 2K frame.

The sequence was then exported ProRes422HQ 1080, opened in QTPro7 and looks washed out and displays the intermittent frame stutter.
When I referred to the frame stutter seeming to mostly affect the 4K footage, what I meant was 'the 1920x1080 ProResHQ footage originally shot in 4K'.

The FW800 G-Raid is less than half full, and is not daisy-chained. It's also the only external drive connected to my system at the moment.

I've purchased the FCS3 and Snow Leopard upgrades just yesterday and I'm hoping they will arrive mid-week.

I appreciate your help thusfar. I will update this thread once I have something to report, after the upgrade and further testing.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 30, 2010 at 2:02:17 am

>>The 4K _F proxies were used only to re-assemble a new sequence atop my old _P proxy sequence, which was 1080.  The sequence settings were then changed to 2048x1152, and each clip was adjusted in the motion tab to fit the 2K frame. <<

WTF makes you think you can edit 2K over FireWire?

Why are you not working with ALL of your content at 1920 x 1080? Not scaled down, not a 4k file in a 1080 timeline, not 2048x 1152?

Look edward, everything minor mis-step like this robs your machine of vital power, that coupled with barely able to handle the bandwidth FireWire drives does not allow you to playback your content in realtime.

You need to scale your content down to the performance level of your system and apps.

Working with the latest technology camera system
REQUIRES that you match your computer to what you are
doing, whether it is a Red or a Canon DSLR.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 30, 2010 at 10:15:00 am

I was working with the _F proxies because all of the ProRes transcodes I made out of REDAlert were washed out and quantized. They look terrible and are absolutely unusable.

Also, that workflow was recommended by David Battistella in the REDuser.net forum (seven posts from top): http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34206&highlight=ProRes+Bert

As for FW800, the bad ProRes export and the frame stutter happen when I export and playback from my desktop as well.

I'll install an eSata card, but it was expressed by a few professionals I spoke to that FW800 is sufficient. One of those individuals edits raw R3D's in Avid over FW800, which surprised me...

I really don't think this is all down to my system. There's something else going on with the washed out ProRes because a good number of other users are experiencing it as well: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44323

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

David Battistella
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 30, 2010 at 1:36:23 pm

Was teh footage captured on Camera build 30 or was it on a previous build?

David

Peace


Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 31, 2010 at 10:40:40 am

Hello David.

I'm told by the DIT the camera was build 31.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

David Battistella
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 31, 2010 at 12:46:08 pm

So this would mean that RR and RA, both software versions that DO NOT support builds upward of Build 21 would not be useful tools in the workflow.

When using build 30+ footage then the most important thing to remember is that RCX is your post tool. If you do not have RED rocket installed then it is important to install REDLINE as it will help RCX in multithreading the render process.

Cheers,

David

Peace


Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 31, 2010 at 1:55:11 pm

Alright. Thanks for that.
I'm waiting on the software updates (10.6 and FCS3) to arrive, with a Sonnet Tempo E2P eSata card and an eSata capable 4TB G-RAID.
After that, I'll install REDline and I hope those combined measure will sort it.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks again.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

Edward Koehler
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Sep 3, 2010 at 7:49:07 pm

Just an update... Apparently OS X 10.6 and is on backorder at the moment as well as the eSata card, so there's a bit of delay.
I didn't want anyone to think I've just drifted off.

2 x 2.26GHz Quad-core Intel'09 MacPro / 8GB ram / OS X 10.5 / Black Magic Decklink HD extreme 3 / G-Raid2 1.5TB FW800 / Final Cut Studio 2 / Final Cut Pro 6


Return to posts index

Graeme Nattress
Re: Ugly ProRes422HQ export, color banding, pan judder
on Aug 26, 2010 at 2:07:41 pm

The Quicktime proxies generated in camera or in our software tools reference the underlying R3D data. They also respond to a number a of pixel types that a Quicktime app like FCP can request. If they are asked for 8bit that is what they'll give, but they also respond to r4fl, which is 32bit floating point YUV as used by the 10bit pipeline in FCP.

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]