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REDONE or RE DONE

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Steve Wargo
REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 19, 2007 at 5:56:06 pm

Eluding back to one of my earlier posts, I find it humorous that Mr Jannard named his camera the REDONE and said it will never be finished as it will always be in development to further advance the technology, hence the name ReDone. So, my pronunciation will change. I like even numbers so I think I'll order mine when they get to build #100.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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edward  chick
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 2:03:53 am

Why do you have such a hard on for this camera and it's owners? Your posts are quite annoying!


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Bob Zelin
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 4:40:37 am

Mr. Wargo is the owner of many expensive hi end High Definition products. As most owners of "cutting edge" technology, we suffer thru all the bugs of products that actually work (including the Sony CineAlta and Panasonic Varicam). Even though they are "complete products", they still have issues, and owners use forums similar to these to express their issues and complaints, to see if other owners have similar issues (because Sony, Panasonic, JVC, GVG, and others never really admit to real problems with their products - hence the beauty of all of these user forums).

HOWEVER, the Red One is a unique product. This product is truly the product of the future - one that we will all gravitate towards. People like Mr. Wargo will actually PURCHASE a RED One when it WORKS, because he has a client base that will PAY for hi end Hi Def work, and it will financially benefit Mr. Wargo to purchase a camera like the RED ONE when it actually works. However, as you well know, this camera is not like other HD products from Sony, GVG, Panasonic, and others. You just don't take this camera out into the field, plug in your RED DRIVE, and shoot a car commercial. Currently, you SUFFER to use this product, both in production and in post production. It is currently a "science project" - a work in progress. Some may find this facinating (hey, I find it faciniating, thats why I keep up with this product - so does Steve Wargo) - but it's kind of hard to deliver a product to your paying customers when you are dealing with a product that is still in development. However, there are many users, such as yourself, that thinks that this product - which is just a tool, certainly no better than a Panaflex - is the holy grail, and can do no wrong. But for people that WANT TO OWN THIS CAMERA, but can't seem to figure out how to get it to GENERATE INCOME and PRODUCE A REAL USABLE PRODUCT, it's fun to make fun of it, and it's silly religious users.

Thats why.

There is no one more than me that wants to see this product as a real working product, with real disk drive interfaces that can record more than 4 minutes of material, that can easily be imported into a FCP or AVID or Scratch sequence, without acrobatics. No one will ever have to say to me "I told you so" - I know it will work ONE DAY.

bob Zelin


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gary adcock
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 1:52:04 pm

[Bob Zelin] "material, that can easily be imported into a FCP or AVID or Scratch sequence, without acrobatics."


Bob

the future is now.- Red released the native QT plugins for FCP on their website on friday.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php


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Steve Wargo
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 6:04:27 am

Another guy that can't see the humorous side to this whole RED thing. First of all, I have said repeatedly I feel that the RED camera has the possibility of being the best thing that has ever happened to the industry as far as digital acquisition. But, why would you accuse me of having a hard on for the owners? I think that they have been a bit duped into investing into something that is still in the development stage. They are so dedicated and enthusiastic that they will turn a blind eye to any problem and laugh it off as "Oh well". If they had the same problem with Sony or Panasonic, they would be screaming for blood and talking class action lawsuit. We've seen that with several cameras including the Sony PD-150 and the Canon HD100.

Some (not me) have said that RED financed their R&D by getting thousands of people to get extremely excited about a "potential" technical breakthrough that will change the industry, probably. It is said that they took "deposits" of $1000 from thousands of people. 1.4 million dollars, I believe. Well, there is a buzz going around that this was a ploy to get around the Securities and Exchange Commission. So, were they taking "deposits" or were they inviting thousands of investors to finance their research and calling it "deposits". Here's a clue: You don't put down a deposit and then wait two years for your product while the company engineers it.

They released a product that is in Beta, at best, and there are a number of people who went way into debt to get their new camera. They've scheduled feature films, TV commercials and many other JOBS only to discover that they can't do what they thought they could do. Several low number holders that I know personally, have advised RED that they do not want their camera until it's ready to go to work, dependably, every day with a workflow that doesn't require a technical person, but rather a creative one.

Here's what I've heard:

1. Did they know last year that they were two years away from an actual finished product?

2. Why did they release a product that has issues? This thoroughly upset many people.

3. If they wanted to do a Beta program, they needed to be upfront about it.

I don't see any RED ads on the Creative Cow.

>>> Sony just built a new camera (F23) for Feature and Commercial work. They showed fully functional units months before anyone was allowed to buy one. Sony, Panasonic, Canon, JVC and others would not dream of taking a deposit on any product. >>>

A lot of people think that RED was very creative in how they financed their R&D. I have another word for it. I won't put in print what I actually think.

I am looking for funds for my upcoming feature film that we are shooting in February. Maybe I should create an internet buzz and start taking orders, telling everyone that it will be a few months for delivery. Then, make my movie and send it to them in two years. Of course, the first couple hundred copies won't have sound but we'll fix that in 6 months or so with a firmware upgrade. What a novel idea. And I'm only talking $20 here. So, why not send me $20 and you'll get movie number 11. The first 10 will go to my friends. The disc will cost $20. The printed label will be $9.34. The case is only $10. The entrapment insert is $11.55 and the shrinkwrap will be another $8.75. If you come to pick it up, I will give you a slice of pizza and a cold can of soda.

By the way, two of my friends own RED cameras and 1 of them is very upset. The other just laughs off the problems. Two different people. Two different attitudes. If you want to see flaming remarks, spend some time looking around REDUSER.NET.

Which serial number do you have and did I answer your question?

Steve Wargo



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edward  chick
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 2:10:34 pm

RED was up front about taking money to fund the develpment of the camera. Does that make the people who gave their money stupid? I think not. They are speculators just like the rest of us. Only the product they are investing in is not quite ready for prime time
All things great start small at first. I thought the purpose of this forum was to disseminate information about a revoloutionary piece of image aquisition technology; not for someone to constantly write stupid tirades about something they don't own and receive their facts second or third party.

Another guy who believes in having an open mind.


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Steve Wargo
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 22, 2007 at 6:52:31 am

[edward chick] "RED was up front about taking money to fund the develpment of the camera"

and

[edward chick] "speculators just like the rest of us. Only the product they are investing in"

I see that you use the words "speculators" and "Investing".

When people do that in the movie business, they go to prison.









Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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edward  chick
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 21, 2007 at 12:14:10 am

[Steve Wargo] "I am looking for funds for my upcoming feature film that we are shooting in February. Maybe I should create an internet buzz and start taking orders, telling everyone that it will be a few months for delivery. Then, make my movie and send it to them in two years."

Uh, is that not the way a lot of independent films get produced? So what' s your point?


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Graeme Nattress
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 21, 2007 at 12:39:38 am

1) deposits do not fund development. All development is funded by Jim, personally. Anyone who wants or wanted their deposit can have it back with interest.

2) Everyone who took delivery was told of the exact and precise state of the camera and given the option to test as is (and get regular updates and fixes) or wait until they were comfortable with the development.

3) We've been completely up-front on the beta nature of the product. As anyone who has used a high tech product knows, many products are released as "finished", but have bugs in them.

4) We took deposits to find out what size the market was. You can't set up production lines and all that kind of thing without accurate numbers.

5) We've always kept everyone informed of ship dates, any delays, what caused them and why. Yes, the ship date we estimated at the first NAB has shifted past the point we wish it had. On the other hand, we're now recording 4k in camera, on compact flash, rather than 2k, because we figured out the raw compression.

This is the first post on the forum that has provoked me enough to post. For those of you that don't know, I'm intimately involved with the development of the RED camera, working on both camera features, image processing, compression and post production software.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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edward  chick
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 21, 2007 at 12:55:49 am

Finally, someone who actually KNOWS what he is talking about regarding the camera!
Thanks for your reply, feel free to interject at anytime. This forum needs you.


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Steve Wargo
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 22, 2007 at 7:28:46 am

[Graeme Nattress] "4) We took deposits to find out what size the market was. You can't set up production lines and all that kind of thing without accurate numbers."

You found out what the market was by taking in $4,000,000?

Interesting!



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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gary adcock
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 21, 2007 at 4:48:43 am

steve,

I feel your diatribe is a little one sided has gone on a little long, I feel that it is doing a disservice to Cow readers.

Red has delivered on their promises, whether you like their business model, their people or the products that they have delivered, when you have worked with RED camera your comments will carry more weight with me.

I have worked with the camera and yes there are issues, but not any more than I ran into with my first time with P2.

You have a chip on your shoulder and it is unbecoming.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Steve Wargo
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 22, 2007 at 7:30:22 am

Gary

OK. I'll let it go boss. It's your forum and you have every right to tell me to put a lid on it.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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Bill Davis
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 23, 2007 at 7:11:22 am

Gary,

Sorry, but I have to seriously disagree with you.

I understand you're the moderator here - but the ONLY value this forum (or any other PUBLIC forum) will ever have is if it can be an honest and accurate reflection of the thoughts and opinions of it's participants.

RED set up a LOT of expectations. They did so in a VERY public fashion.
And for a lot of people - those expectations have NOT been met. Not, I hasten to add because I think they were trying to be dishonest or to fool anyone, but because in their excitement over the feature set they felt they could achieve and deliver - they didn't fully understand the complexity of their undertaking and the timeframes necessary to both develop - and more critically - perfect - their product. RED was and still IS a revolutionary idea. And while it's certainly cool to foment a positive revolution - it's not easy, either.

Still, it's pretty unarguable at this point that they overreached in some key areas. Particularly in the areas of development time, the complexity of the entire workflow they were trying to promote - AND (and here's where I think they have to take the kind of criticism that this thread reflects) in letting the market see the RED ONE as a camcorder for the masses - rather than the extremely specialized "large crew" camera that it's turning out to be in it's first incarnation.

I, and most people in the industry felt, and STILL feel that they were promoting what they HONESTLY felt they could accomplish.

But - and this is the key - to date it appears that they HAVE NOT created a product that satisfactorily fulfills a LOT of the expectations that they created and fostered.

That Steve, or others, are willing to honestly point this out is not only FAIR, it's NECESSARY.

We're not overlooking the positives of what the RED team has accomplished. Nor are we losing hope that they can EVENTUALLY deliver on their vision.

But as of right now, they haven't.

In reality, every week that goes by without a workable "order and profitably use NOW" camera is going to dim the RED perception.

When RED gets to their ACTUAL "fully realized model" delivery point, the glow will return.

But not until then - and getting upset at people for expressing their disappointment with the state of RED "right now" is not only fair - it's foolish.

Sorry, but I'm with Steve on this one.




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Graeme Nattress
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 23, 2007 at 2:17:52 pm

I daily get phone calls and emails from actual camera users that contradict the main points of your above post.

Graeme


- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Graeme Nattress
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 23, 2007 at 7:26:19 pm

Soderbergh, will shoot "The Informant", starring Matt Damon, all RED, beginning march. He's already shot two movies on RED so far. Do you not think the camera is in working order now and you can use it profitably?

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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blub06
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 24, 2007 at 12:59:06 am

Using Soderberg as some kind of example that legitimizing Red is shocking. Here is a guy who entered the scene with one of the worst photographed films of all times Sex Lies and Videotape. After getting lucky to get another job in not an Indy film company but a studio he decides that he is what the critics have dubbed him, an artistic genius, the new Robert Altman. After a few films he pushes the DP aside and starts shooting films himself to embarrassing effect. If Red is to be sold to DPs Soderberg is a particularly odd choice to help make that happen.

But once again we are back to Red as a buzz machine. Soderberg is beloved by film critics because of one bad film and one good film and his political bent. He is the anointed American artist of film, largely because that


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Bill Davis
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 26, 2007 at 4:02:06 am

Graeme,

Look, I respect your perspective and your accomplishments. I'm a satisfied customer of your filters and believe you write some some truly outstanding code. I also believe it speaks very well of RED that they're got you on the development team. It's precisely that level of professionalism that got so many people excited about the project.

But potential and professionalism can not be the whole story. Not months after a public "shipping date" has come and gone.

You can't argue that the launch thus far has been a story where ONE of the major threads has been "back to the drawing board" and "hang in there until we fix or finish this part."

Again, let me be crystal clear. I don't think this calls into question the commitment, the capability, or the future prospects of RED. I, like many, MANY others are pulling for you guys to make this the digital imaging "tipping point" that will create a better future for our whole industry.

But it's also critical to understand that no matter how many "A" list directors can get their features completed on RED, the real future of this camera - like any other - is what happens when it moves from "maybe consider" to "must consider" for the widest possible range of practitioners.

The feature film industry produces perhaps thousands of works a year.

Below that level there's a rarified world of high end commercials and big bucks music video that might support a focus puller and full crew ala Panavision production. But right below that is a GARGANTUAN market. It's the bread and butter corporate productions, lower budget indy films, art films, scientific films, documentaries, and the tens and tens of thousands of us who can justify $40k for a camera system - IF YOU CAN MAKE THE BUY DECISION EASY FOR US.

That's precisely what Sony did with the original Betacam and it's what the DV Handycam revolution was all about. Push video production out of the rarified atmosphere of Hollywood and into the hands of more and MORE users.

That's the future I hope the RED team is working for. Not just a better toy for a few big names who don't really give a RATS behind what the "camera costs" entry is on their "below the line" budgets.

For what it's worth.



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Graeme Nattress
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 26, 2007 at 12:37:19 pm

Surely the "We're fixing that", "We're improving that", "We're putting a vastly improved PL mount on it." etc. show a totally correct attitude. When was the last piece of perfect software written? When was the last perfect camera made? All major camera manufacturers updates their camera models, both adding new features and bug fixes. What we're doing is being open and honest about the development and actually fixing people's issues, rather than say "there is no x issue" and waiting for a class action suit. AND then after loosing that, waiting for the Judge to force us to to fix the problem for free, rather than charging for it. We'd be silly to go that route, so we don't and won't.

The RED camera is designed for anyone who wants to make very high quality moving images. The primary customer is not Hollywood, but Jim himself, who generally shoots single-handed documentary style. However, the Hollywood crew are the fussiest (so if you get it right for them, the chances are it will be right for everyone), but there are also a lot of indies giving (probably the best) feedback too.

Graeme



- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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gary adcock
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 26, 2007 at 2:09:54 pm

[Bill Davis] "But it's also critical to understand that no matter how many "A" list directors can get their features completed on RED, the real future of this camera - like any other - is what happens when it moves from "maybe consider" to "must consider" for the widest possible range of practitioners.
The feature film industry produces perhaps thousands of works a year. "



Just How many 4K features have you worked on Bill?
Since only 8 Hollywood features were done all of 2006( most notably Spiderman 3 and the Black Dahlia)

I believe the number of 4K deliveries this year ( 2007) will be something in the order of 30, 1/3 of which are being shot on RED cameras.


Since when is 4K a must have for anyone in the "widest possible range of practitioners"
when the vast majority of people on the Cow have never even touched a 35mm film camera?

Too many here are confusing the Buzz around RED with their own actual capabilities and needs.

People who have never worked in Film or Uncompressed HD workflows need to make serious judgements when working in this cutting edge medium,




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 24, 2007 at 1:47:04 pm

[Bill Davis] "I understand you're the moderator here - but the ONLY value this forum (or any other PUBLIC forum) will ever have is if it can be an honest and accurate reflection of the thoughts and opinions of it's participants. "

I do not disagree Bill,

But I felt that the large amount of negative posts from one individual- that has not used a Red camera,and is not planning on buying one, to continually post extended negative commentary without a firsthand knowledge base was not fair.

Anyone making commentary based on "posts on other forums" without a actual experience can and does come across as bias.

I do not disagree that many of the people that laid hopes on Red have been dashed. Most of the people I know that are in that camp are the individuals that thought they could move up directly from a Z1 or HVX without ever understanding that is is a professional product with the needs and requirements of a near cinematic production and post process.

Anyone thinking about working in 4K needs to understand that there was less than 10 films in 2006 done in that format. Everyone of the people I know that are disappointed did not understand nor did they research what they were buying into.








gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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blub06
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 7:28:16 pm

it will never be finished

Sounds familiar, kind of like Lenin talking about communism as perpetual revolution. How'd that turn out for ya buddy?

Like with most things that start small and MIGHT turn out great (like my ego) little things can be snuffed out by the lightest breeze. In this world it pays to get things right, only a monopoly can afford to keep selling second rate stuff with a revision always just around the corner as in Microsoft.

Which is kind of like that Steve Martin joke, how to be a millionaire and not pay taxes, first, get a million dollars....

Chris


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edward  chick
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 10:23:37 pm

I'm sorry, I don't recall communisim as the topic. Maybe you should check what website you are on buddy! ( And no communisim does not work for me, but then again I never tried it).
How do YOU know for sure it will never work? Another "expert" giving his jaded opinion on a product that not many people really know about, which is why they come to this forum.


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Bob Zelin
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 11:26:20 pm

Ed -
did you ever insult a religious person about what they believe in? They get very offended.

I can only imagine that you have invested in the RED camera, and don't appreciate anyone insulting your investment. I am sure that Steve Wargo would not take kindly to anyone insulting the CineAlta, after spending all that money.

I hope it's clear to you that WE ALL BELIEVE that the RED Camera will be a great product one day, and that the 4K workflow will revitalize hi end production value in our business. I know Ted Schilowitz at RED - he is a great guy, and I hope for the best for him and RED, and I hope the best for the continued development for the product. I am in the post production business, and I am completely on top of Assimilate Scratch, and it's associated products to allow for hi end finishing.

Ed, I'm sorry, but the camera is JUST NOT READY. You probably spent a lot of money, it's capable of making great pictures, but to be able to produce a real job, for real paying clients - I'm sorry, but unless someone is doing it and keeping it a secret, it's just not there yet.

Outsiders that observe this (spending money on a product that is not ready to generate income) generates "snickers" from those observers. It happens with all products, not just the RED Camera. If you are familiar with HD-DVD and Blu Ray, and are familiar with the nightmare of compatibility, firmware issues, trouble with DVD Studio Pro, and all the other crap, after a while you START TO MAKE FUN of HD DVD and Blu Ray, even though everyone on this forum knows that it's the future. The manufacturers of these products have turned this into a fiasco, and people LAUGH about it. It just the way life is.

Bob Zelin




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edward  chick
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 20, 2007 at 11:33:55 pm


Actually I don't own a RED. But I'm tired reading all the negative posts that this forum has on it. How about the actual OWNERS viewpoint for once. Instead of other's second and third hand or "my friend owns one" information. Steve, my serial number is 0000 just like yours. I just want to find out more about the camera like everyone else. But it seems this forum is the opposite.


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blub06
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 21, 2007 at 2:15:05 am

Thats so true, I have been hiding all of mine, such as it is.

Okay, sing along with me now, knowledge is bad, blindness is good...


Chris


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Steve Wargo
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 22, 2007 at 7:20:53 am

Red opened themselves up to all of this harrasment.

Yeah, I own a Sony F-900 that I paid a lot of money for, $120K for body and lens and another $30K for accessories. But, I will be the first to tell you that it isn't perfect, far from it. It's noisy, the front mounted switches are a joke, and it runs hot. However, it's made money from the first day on and everything was in place the day it was released. But, that has nothing to do with RED in any way what so ever.

The COW is not a forum that is here only to discuss how great any product is but to disclose the bad as well as the good, on everything. You tend to look at RED through rose colored glasses. If you were getting ready to mortgage your house to buy one, wouldn't you want it to make money today?

Above, Gary says that the software for FC(P) is being released. I think that should have been ready before the camera was turned loose. A beta program would have been a very good thing and the first 50 numbers should have been given the opportunity to be that team. However, it was sold to the general public and the buyers were advised to avoid any commercial work till some things were ironed out.

That, in my opinion, is a slippery slope.

We've read some real horror stories on REDUSER.net and what goes on here is poking a little fun. We're having fun. We're old, we've been through all kinds of product hell in the last 25 to 30 years and RED is just a product to us. You'll notice in my signature that we own 5 Final Cut units. Ask me what I think about that sad little tool.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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Bob Zelin
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 22, 2007 at 4:41:52 pm

Steve writes -
RED is just a product to us. You'll notice in my signature that we own 5 Final Cut units. Ask me what I think about that sad little tool.

REPLY - Steve is absolutely correct. Graeme knows me well via the old AVID-L list for years. I tortured AVID, I know exactly what is wrong with FCP (this is how I make my day to day living, and I drive everyone involved crazy), and the RED is the next great product in the chain. When FCP first really started to happen (with the press given by Walter Murch), I was very vocal and disrespectful to Mr. Murch, as I knew that Digital Film Tree in LA was resposible for all the success of this project, and getting thru all the nightmares, and dealing with the Aurora card (at the time)- not Mr. Murch. Red may be a great product, but it's JUST A PRODUCT, and they will be tortured, just like AVID, AJA, and Blackmagic.

Bob Zelin



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Steve Wargo
Mr. Zelin...
on Nov 24, 2007 at 7:01:14 am

Could you drop me a line off forum and I'll tell you about when I lived in Kissimee?

We can also talk smack about you know who.

steve@sntvideo.com




Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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Steve Wargo
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 22, 2007 at 7:25:38 am

Who is this "THEY" that you're talking about?

If "they" have a great camera and "they" are having a great experience, where are "they"? Why don't "they" march in here and put me in my place?





Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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Joe Yaggi
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 22, 2007 at 4:46:30 pm

Hey Guys,

This is a pretty good laugh! Well done :) Almost better than the pub down the street!

I played with RED over at the Jackson Hole Wildlife Film Festival. Interesting piece of kit. Didn't have sound at the time, still sortin' out work flow, didn't have a zoom lens (though I was told with the adapter it'd work) blah blah blah. Chatted with a couple of guys shooting stock and they were stoked. And it didn't look quite as much like a WMD as I originally thought (good thing, WMDs don't go over well where I shoot). For doc field work? Quite a way to go...

I'm glad I didn't put my grand on the table. But I'll buy one eventually because I think it is the future. And I'd really like to see that little war movie that Peter Jackson did with it, on a big screen of course. But, while we wait, I think I'll go with the EX.

:)

Joe

Joe Yaggi
Creative Supervisor, Director, DP
Jungle Run Productions
http://www.jungle-run.com


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blub06
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 24, 2007 at 1:00:14 am

Perhaps, for Mr. Chick, humor is a bit of a stumbling block, I think you deserve a clarifying note that might resolve some of your confusion.

The truth is a new tool that is at the center of what most of us do is always interesting. Something that promises to breakdown real and imagined barriers with a new approach is intriguing. I would even say that presented in the right way a new tool that


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Steve Connor
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 24, 2007 at 9:36:12 am

Not really sure why this forum is on here - apart from to give people like Steve an opportunity to bait RED owners! That's what the original post clearly was intended to do.

There's not many constructive posts on here at all, perhaps because people don't want to post here for fear of ridicule. I'm not sure that's really what the COW is about.

I'd love to have an active RED forum on the COW as an alternative to the evangelical REDuser forum so we could hear from RED owners first hand and get news on the development of the camera, but I'm afraid this is just not going to happen while people continue to make these sort of posts.

Would it be tolerated on any other forum?





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Bob Zelin
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 24, 2007 at 11:14:15 pm

Steve writes -
Would it be tolerated on any other forum?

YES. Companies like Digital Voodoo (now Bluefish), and Lacie had forums, but no longer - they didn't like the bad press of all the complaints. When a Digital Voodoo forum existed (this was the original capture card for FCP, which "gave birth" to the excellent Blackmagic Design corp), people did nothing but trash Digital Voodoo because of problems, and lack of support. Digital Voodoo not only got rid of their user forum, but changed the name of the company to Bluefish. So is it tolerated - YES IT IS - but the companies that take the abuse don't like it. Hey, AVID is getting plenty of abuse these days as well, and they are a well established company.

Bob Zelin


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Steve Connor
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 24, 2007 at 11:50:31 pm

Bob,

that's not a relevant example I'm afraid, those forums had complaints from actual USERS of the kit, the criticisms on this forum are from people who don't own RED or have ever used one.

It's simple personal opinion based on no real world experience with the product.

Put it this way if an Avid user who has never used FCP posted negative comments on the FCP forum then would that be OK, do you think that would be tolerated?

I'm no RED fanboy, but I'm keen to know more about it. However I'm a big fan of the COW and I think some of the posts on this forum are against the spirit of the COW.

If you bother to wade your way through the Red User forum there is good stuff to talk about and some very promising clips from the camera, but you have to get past the fanboy stuff to find it.

I was hoping that this forum would, in the great tradition of the COW, give people a chance to get questions answered and to find out more about the camera without the BS and hero worship. However at the moment I don't think it stands a chance of doing that.


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JeremyG
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 25, 2007 at 3:18:16 am

[Steve Connor] "However at the moment I don't think it stands a chance of doing that. "

Since there are so few camera out in the wild, there's no reason to come to the Cow yet.

Once this camera gets in the hands of more of the image making masses, you will see a turn around in the tone of this forum. I liken it to P2, not in ability, but in technical discussion and nuance of a format and workflow that is different to shooting anything else.

The P2 forum before the release of the HVX200 was crazy. Fanboys, fangirls, haters, speculators, a few knowledgeable posts know and then, some really long tirades, ruminations on any sort of technical tidbit that was gained at the latest trade show, photoshopped unveilings of a veiled camera, lots of off topic discussions about everyone's knowledge of video, lots of talking about who likes this and who hates that and who has been around longer than others just by the sheer circumstance that they were born first and what that meant for society at large, lots of questions, very few answers. There's a lot of that going on here. Once the HVX200 was released in big numbers (beyond the first shipment) things started to look up and people started asking real questions and got real answers, and as with anything that has a microprocessor in it, people started having real reasons to complain, ponder, wonder, praise and cheer.

Time will be Red's friend, both of this forum and in its development. A few firmware updates will probably help out as well.


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Bill Davis
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 26, 2007 at 4:24:07 am

Sorry, but I don't buy the "your opinion should be dismissed if you don't own one" argument at all.

Of COURSE these opinions are from "non users" - Because the actual owner/users aren't coming here to tell us any different!

All it will take to turn this discussion around is some of the first 100 adopters to come here - or any of the various public forums- and start telling us honestly and openly about a string of successes (or even realistic experiences of ANY kind) - that have followed owning and using their RED ONE cameras.

I honestly don't know why the initial 100 have been so quiet about their experiences.

Of course the "suspicion" is that the early adopters are having issues. RED's public communications have laudably acknowledged that.

But really, how can the speculation be anything other than what it is here when the actual owners don't step up and tell us different?

Sorry, but the antidote to rumors always has been - and always will be - the truth.

I honestly hope the long term truth turns out WONDERFUL for RED.

But to suggest that we're doing something wrong by honestly analyzing a PUBLIC story as it's unfolding is poppycock.



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Noah Kadner
Re: Hear Hear Gary
on Nov 26, 2007 at 8:19:56 am

Just wanted to chime in and say hear, hear Gary. I'm a Cow Forum leader and an owner of Red cameras. That said, the tone of this forum thus far has turned me off completely. To the point of posting the entirety of my experiences with Red(both positive and negative) elsewhere.

If this forum is going to remain on the Cow and serve any technically informative or conversational purpose, I hope you'll continue to encourage/mod those who have no actual first-hand experience with this particular topic to keep their comments to themselves. I for one certainly won't be chasing them to their home forums to harp on their camera of choice all day long. More signal, less noise...

Noah


Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, Apple Color and now the HVX200!
http://www.callboxlive.com


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blub06
Re: Hear Hear Gary
on Nov 26, 2007 at 4:48:07 pm

the tone of this forum thus far has turned me off completely

I know exactly why owners and users have given this forum little feedback. Its comments like the one above which say it all. Red for most is a kind of religion and if you don


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JeremyG
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 26, 2007 at 4:58:16 pm

I am not saying anyone's opinion should be dismissed. Not at all. Actually, it's quite the opposite. I was just commenting on the overall tone of most of the posts so far in the forum and why people might be reluctant to post here. There's a lot of lurkers on the cow, and that's good. How do you get people to post? Provide a good place to do so that is judgement free so people won't feel that their investment is worthless. Once more people can get their hands on a Red, take it out into the field and shoot with it, perhaps people will see the potential of what this camera can be. Until then, it is all conjecture, just like the HVX200. Before people shot with it, they hated it. After people shot with it, it was going to be the camera that changed the way of video, and it certainly brought forth a new era of acquisition to a large amount of people. It's a familiar tune is all.

I don't care say what you want. Blast RED and all it's doings, accuse the company of being a fraud and conspiracy machine and don't forget to mention the SEC, but that is not going to help build a strong community.

The ONE post from a Cow leader who had hands on experience went totally untouched for the most part. That post was positive and truthful. No one commented, no one cared, except Russell Lasson (another Cow leader) who remains positive and asks questions.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/242/313

If you want to start building a strong community of users, it'd be best to talk to the people that use...in my opinion anyway.


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Noah Kadner
Re: Exactly
on Nov 27, 2007 at 12:25:38 am

You could blow away about 95% of the threads on this particular forum and you wouldn't lose any content. Thanks for noting I tried though Jeremy. :)

-Noah

Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, Apple Color and now the HVX200!
http://www.callboxlive.com


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blub06
Re: REDONE or RE DONE
on Nov 27, 2007 at 2:51:29 am

I sense you are asking for an example of what kind of information we are looking for to get this forum running in a way that might be along the lines you imagine such a forum should run like. For those of us who do not use or own a Red camera yet have an open mind about it (which would be most of us) a good helpful post would go something like this.

So I've been shooting for about a week or two with Red and thought I would mention some things I discovered along the way. First off let me say I love it, great/bad ease of use and image quality cant be beat. When on the set I found the sensitivity of the camera allowed me/the DP to light just with out eyes, or not. We used a xxxx on set to monitor which looked xxxxx.

One consistent thing I find is that when we get the footage in post we must tweak it to better reflect what we saw on the set, but wow is there a lot of information there, or, what a pain in the ass to have to color correct everything, or, but the corrections are minimal and once you get one shot to your liking just apply that to the rest. It would be nice to embed a look into the master footage rather then just be constantly in RAW mode, or, gosh I like RAW.

It might be nice to have an optical path for viewing the image like the D20, so an operator from film could be more at home but I like the xxxxx. Over all I see it as a money saver/loser while providing better images then anything else out there other then film. etc etc etc.

Just a little something that talks about the operation of the thing on a shoot, something that makes it different, better or worse, and some feedback regarding working with the files in post Is it better worse, then film/vid is it more or less this or that, is there something strange you must keep in mind when shooting, is the camera really hot to the touch, etc.

I don't thing anyone is going to look at an honest post and only extract some negative aspect and try to burn down your world. But, in the absence of information there


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Steve Wargo
To reiterate..
on Nov 27, 2007 at 4:02:30 am

[blub06] " But, in the absence of information there


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Noah Kadner
Re: To reiterate..
on Nov 30, 2007 at 6:35:11 am

[Steve Wargo] "Mr. Kadner, because you are a well respected forum leader, why don't you start the first totally positive thread telling us about your successes in using your new technology? We're waiting."

Tried that already Steve and no one seemed to give a hoot:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/242/313

Not saying that there are no place on the net where folks are working with Red and discussing all kinds of experiences. Just saying this particular forum shows no signs of ever being one of those places. Not that it should keep you up at night or anything...

ps- if you actually are serious about discussing this further please send me an email. For obvious reasons I'm not checking this forum all that often.

Noah

Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, Apple Color and now the HVX200!
http://www.callboxlive.com


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Steve Wargo
In all fairness...
on Dec 1, 2007 at 7:11:59 am

In all fairness, you said that you were going to conduct some tests and then post the results. So where is this second post?

This is our problem, Noah. The people that have RED cameras are saying nothing so we have nothing to conclude except that there are problems that RED owners don't want to discuss. After all, if they are having a positive experience where are they?

I've held one in my hands and, quite frankly, I don't see it as a fully functioning tool as of yet. For one thing, the menu system being on the back instead of the operator side was a definite mistake in my opinion and I feel that it was unprofessional of RED to sell cameras to the general public, that weren't ready for prime time. As I have said repeatedly, the first 25 or so should have been distributed as a beta program, not as production units. The people who are all excited and can't think straight are willing to overlook the many shortcomings while I've read numerous negative posts from RED users at REDUSER.net.

Let me also say that the job of forum participants is to keep an open mind and report the truth, both positive and negative. If I'm about to plunk down a bunch of cash for a money making tool, I would appreciate knowing the down side in advance so that I don't go into debt for something that isn't quite ready yet. How many people out there can make high monthly payments with no return? My camera was $4000 a month and if it didn't make money on a regular basis, it could have meant the end of my company and a lot more. A local RED owner has offered his camera for rent at $2500 per day. I can rent a $65k DigiBeta camera for $600 a day. Why would I pay 4 times as much for something that cost 1/2 as much? Because it has a 4K image that is good for what? I don't think so.

When I bought my HD camera, in 2002, everything worked as it was supposed to. A complete workflow was in place and I sent it out on a rental within 24 hours of taking possession. It's been used on numerous feature films and commercials with only a few minor issues over the past 5 years.

If Sony had released something that only half worked, the buyers would have gone insane. After all, there was a class action suite formed to take Sony down over the lowly $3500 PD-150 because it had a sound issue.

I hereby challenge you to give us a positive report, instead of saying nothing. getting mad and going away because some of us have demanded a completed, functioning unit before doing a thorough evaluation. Is that really too much to ask?

We are waiting to take delivery of a Sony PMW-EX1 and you can bet that the first thing I will look for and report on are any problems that I can find. After all, Sony is telling us what's great about it. I want to know what's wrong with it and I won't hold back anything. Only a fool would do otherwise.





Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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Craig Meadows
Re: In all fairness...
on Dec 8, 2007 at 5:44:57 pm

It would appear that those who are very critical about RED are as passionate and focused in their contempt as the RED fanatics are in their praise. And honestly I am not sure why after reading this whole thread. After all It is just a tool as many have mentioned. If you don't like it or don't want to use it, then don't.

With that said I am a RED reservation holder (#2XX) and expect to get my camera soon. Am I excited? You bet. Is it the best thing since sliced bread? Probably not, maybe, I don't know. Having been in this business 25 years I've been through a lot of tools and this is just one of them. Despite my years, I am always trying to learn something new and try to improve my skills using the tools I have. Adopting new technology both in hardware and workflow as you can afford them is vital to success in this fast changing industry.

I make commercials and corporate video in a medium sized market. I am by no means a film maker in regards to features, shorts, docs or indys. My often small budgets would simply amaze most of you on the west and east coasts. I do however, try to make the best 30-second stories and corporate videos I can with the tools I can afford.

For those like me, and I think we represent a good sized segment all camera manufacturers appeal and cater to, the RED camera is a gigantic leap in image quality compared to anything else for the price. That is the principle point for RED fanaticism, wether it's from the dv generation, seasoned dp's or noted film directors.

The RED business model with deposits, open development, etc. is actually a breath of fresh air for many of us. Has Mr. Sony, Mr. Panasonic or Mr. JVC every asked you for your opinion on direct product development? I suspect not many. Yet, apparently, F900's still have heat issues despite not being shipped until they were ready? My JVC HD100 makes nice images but it's plastic build quality and drum life is horrendous. Solid state, no tape P2 is now an accepted work-flow yet originally "professionals" questioned it's efficiency. Go figure.

I find it funny that Graeme addressed the deposit and other issues very clearly and professionally yet some discounted his opinion, especially in light of his inside tract. It's very easy to be on the outside looking in making generalizations despite your experience and pedigree.

At RED, new features are being added regularly. RED software is openly available for download. The FCP codec is ready. They have been completely honest from the beginning on everything. I can get my deposit back today if I want to. They are replacing free of charge the first 100 cameras as things have improved since those shipped. Noted film directors are successfully using RED. Sony Pictures apparently is attempting to block its use on it's films. Hmm, there must be something to this still under development, beta RED camera thing.

Yes I still see it as just a tool, yet one I can grow with and make money with. That's without spending over $100k for the same or lesser quality. And I am more than willing to accept some initial limitations (call me a beta tester if you will) to get in on the ground floor.

Ok, rant over, RED fan boy signing out.



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Steve Wargo
So Craig..
on Dec 12, 2007 at 5:20:51 am

After getting your camera and testing it for a bit, how about dropping in and giving us an honest evaluation? No one else seems to be willing to do so.

And actually, you seem way too level headed to be a fanboy. They only want to hear praise.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


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Craig Meadows
Re: So Craig..
on Dec 12, 2007 at 5:46:38 pm

Absolutely Steve, would love to.


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sandie taylor
Re: So Craig..
on Feb 8, 2008 at 5:34:14 am

What would you recommend for the best digital camera for photo shots on the beach, especially sunrises and sunsets? Please email your response as soon as possible.

sjtaylor


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