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RED conform pan scan

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Michael Swingler
RED conform pan scan
on Jan 25, 2010 at 9:05:22 am

Hi,

I just finished an off-line edit in FCP using footage shot on the RED. The post-house I'm using is asking for a 2k Apple Pro Res output, since they're giving me a huge break on the fee and don't want to go through the conforming process.

So, I'm planning on using Clipfinder to attach the original R3D files to the FCP XML export. However, I'm not sure which application to use for the high-res render and output. From what I've been reading, I have the following options:

1. Attach 4k proxies to FCP XML export using clipfinder. Then import back into FCP and export the timeline as a 2k Apple PRO RES file. PROBLEM: I heard FCP isn't the best to generate the 2k output from a 4k timeline, especially if pan & scans are involved.

2. Attach 4k proxies to FCP XML export using clipfinder. Then import back into FCP, then SEND TO COLOR. From Color, change from 4k to 2k timeline and export back into FCP as 2k. Then export from FCP as 2k apple pro res. PROBLEM: I heard that REDCine should be used to render new high-res files from RED footage, rather than COLOR. Something to do with the RED color space & debayer.

3. Use Crimson or http://www.michaelcinquin.com/tools/red tools to translate FCP XML to RedCine project, then export from RedCine as 2k then back into FCP for final export. PROBLEM: The workflow is a pain, and all of the pan & scans i've done in the project do not transfer over to REDCine. I'd have to manually re-frame every shot that was modified.

I'd prefer to use option 2, since all my pan & scans transfer over to COLOR, but am I going to get the best quality render for final output? I just want to make sure I give the post house the best 2k timeline I could possibly produce and not lose any resolution quality in the pan & scans. Any advice?

Thanks so much for this resource. It's a life saver.
MS




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Noah Kadner
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Jan 25, 2010 at 3:27:06 pm

Just out of curiosity if you're doing your own 2K grade and conform in Color why do you need the post house at all? And why pan and scan at all- was this not shoot at 16:9 or HD frame size? For a 2K output there is no pan and scan- just scale down and export.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera! Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Call Box Training now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D,
Apple Tablet Blog.


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Michael Swingler
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Jan 25, 2010 at 6:46:36 pm

Ok...my bad... I'm using the term "pan & scan" improperly. I'm talking about digitally punch/scaling in and cropping. We shot on 4k, but will be finishing 2k so we knew we could go in tighter and crop and still keep it within the 2k resolution. So, when I export this to COLOR or RedCine, I'd like the scaling/crop information to be retained so I don't have to manually do these all over again.

Also, I'm not planning on doing ANY color grading in either tool. I'm just trying to conform my edit back to 4k, then export a 2k apple pro res file. The post-house will take that and do the color correction.

Sure, I could do the color correction in COLOR myself, but I'm not a professional colorist and do not have the properly calibrated monitors and such. I just won't do as good as a job.

Suggestions on the best route to get them the best pro res file with the most amount of information for color correction? Thanks again!

MS


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Noah Kadner
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Jan 25, 2010 at 9:53:42 pm

Well it depends how you ingested the footage into FCP and which version of FCP you have. If you have FCP 7 and you ingested with proxies or with native- log and transferred clips there's no need to go out to Color. Just export your FCP project at 2K and it will reference the original 4K clips.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera! Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Call Box Training now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D,
Apple Tablet Blog.


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Michael Swingler
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Jan 25, 2010 at 10:28:41 pm

Would I be limiting the coloring possibilities by just exporting the raw through final cut? Would it be beneficial for me to apply some RED colorspace, gamma, etc. attributes in another app and re-rendering?

A friend of mine recently went through this process. He used crimson to get FCP 4k timeline to RedCine, then did a 2k export using colorspace REC709, gamma RedLog, noise reduction, detail high and full debayer. I'm assuming this was intended to give the post-house the best possible 2k output with a proper beginning look/colorspace to start with.

Does it make sense to do this? Will a 2k render coming from one of FCP, Color or RedCine affect the coloring possibilities at the post-house? I just want to avoid hearing the post-house say, "Sorry, but this is the best we can do for the file you gave us. The data just isn't there and the noise can't be removed. Mediocre going in, mediocre going out."

I really appreciate your help.
MS


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Noah Kadner
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Jan 26, 2010 at 12:57:28 am

I'd load up in RedCine or REDCineX or even RedRushes or Clipfinder if you want to burn out full debayer. Be ready for a long render time though- even on a stocked MacPro. To be honest you don't gain a lot if you're just burning it down to ProRes anyway. It is what it is. Much better is a post house with Scratch and or a RED Rocket. Stuart in this board could totally style you for example, but not a freebie. :)

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera! Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Call Box Training now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D,
Apple Tablet Blog.


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Jan 27, 2010 at 3:10:32 pm

[Michael Swingler] "Would I be limiting the coloring possibilities by just exporting the raw through final cut?"

Yes, FCP does a great job making the log and transfer of RED media to QT very quick and very easy, but at a great cost, Quality. In my experience and tests, FCP throws away as much as 50% (maybe more) detail and latitude of the RAW files. For offline this is great, but for an online and / or color correction (when you really need to push the signal) the loss of detail and the data thrown away by FCP will create latitude and macro-blocking problems, therefore, limiting what you can do to the picture.

-

[Michael Swingler] "A friend of mine recently went through this process. He used crimson to get FCP 4k timeline to RedCine, then did a 2k export using colorspace REC709, gamma RedLog, noise reduction, detail high and full debayer. I'm assuming this was intended to give the post-house the best possible 2k output with a proper beginning look/colorspace to start with"

Personally, I do not trust the REC709 coming from RedCine. Every time I have used it, the results are all over the place. Usually the results are very strong magentas and greens (almost neon-like in saturation). Skin tones become a mess. This makes color grading very difficult because before you can get to create any artistic work you have to deal with those high-saturated tones which can completely throw you off. I completely avoid REC709 and usually stick to RED Space / RED Space for much better control in the color grading process.

-

[Michael Swingler] "Does it make sense to do this? Will a 2k render coming from one of FCP, Color or RedCine affect the coloring possibilities at the post-house?"
Yes!!!

I deal with a lot of RED projects. The best way to get the most of your RED footage is to use the HIGH QUALITY debayer using any of the RED apps (some sharpening may be ok - but that can be added in the color session to minimize render times in the begining). Obviously, doing high quality debayer conversions on REDCine or RED Rushes take a hell of a long time but it is the only way to be 100% sure you are not losing any quality.

And as Noah mentions, the other option is to do the conversions through RED Rocket using the same high-quality settings. The typical processing time of 1 hour of RED RAW using the High Quality debayer on a computer is 10+ hours. Red Rocket does exactly the same in real time. This saves a lot of time specially when you don't have much time to waste.

If you are interested in RED finishing, RED Rocket conversions or RED color grading, please contact me anytime at my studio phone number or email. Our rates are very indie-friendly and if you are outside L.A., that is not a problem either.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Post Supervisor
West Los Angeles, CA

- Visit our studio's website.
- RED Rocket Conversions.
- Follow us on Facebook. Become a fan!
- Duplication, Mastering and Teranex Conversions.


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Michael Swingler
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Jan 27, 2010 at 7:01:58 pm

Thank you. That was extremely helpful. However, is it possible to get the same higher quality output through COLOR as the RED tools? I'd prefer to use COLOR since my ZOOM/SCALING/CROPPING information easily transfers. If I use any of the RED tools, I'll have to manually go in and re-crop all the shots before exporting 2k and roundtripping back to FCP.

I've noticed through the RED tab in COLOR, I can specify the colorspace and gamma but don't see anything for debayer, noise or sharpening. Am I missing some setting somewhere?

BTW Stuart, I sent a message to your studio using the form on your site.

Thanks again! MS


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Michael Swingler
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Feb 20, 2010 at 4:01:06 am

Just thought I'd follow up on this for the forum. You guys were very helpful... Thank you...

In summary, I ended up having to render everything out of RedCine and manually re-cropping/re-framing the shots that needed it. Color wasn't able to export with full debayer and didn't have the de-noise and sharpening option.

It was a long and painful process and had to borrow fast machines to render all of the material. My Macbook Pro was going to take over 40plus hours to render it all. In the end, I got everything rendered and conformed, but not sure if I'd want to go through that again. I'm thinking working straight off of the r3d files is the better way to go, even if you have to pay a bit more to do so... Oh well, next time.

Thanks again...
MS


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: RED conform pan scan
on Feb 20, 2010 at 5:55:04 pm

I told you :)
Maybe next time we can work together.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Post Supervisor
West Los Angeles, CA

- Visit our studio's website.
- RED Rocket Conversions.
- Follow us on Facebook. Become a fan!
- Duplication, Mastering and Teranex Conversions.


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