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Is the RDM name important?

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Seth Fisher
Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 21, 2009 at 7:09:34 pm

Hi all. I'm just beginning my first post-production with 4K RED footage. I understand that it is important to keep the RDC files and their contents the same as the camera named them. But can I remove them from their RDM folders and categorize otherwise? Am I correct that the RDM is just there for an easy drag-and-drop from the RED Drive to another drive?

Thanks in advance for your help.


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joe hedge
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 21, 2009 at 9:35:20 pm

One of the cardinal rules of Red raw camera file data management is: Never Drag And Drop From Camera Drive To Backup Media. Programs like ShotPut Pro and R3D Data Manager are used to preserve the integrity of both the file structure and the files themselves. Wavelet compression (which R3D's use) is particularly susceptible to corruption, always use dedicated software for file transfer from camera drives.

As far as moving files out of their source directory, not a good idea. All you really need to do is import the clips you want to cut with into FCP, and put those clips into bins with whatever names you care to give them (the bins).




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Noah Kadner
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 21, 2009 at 9:43:37 pm

Leave every file/folder exactly where the RED puts them and as it names them when you copy your cards/drives. That is if your footage is important to you. :)

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!. Unlock the secrets of the 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, and Panasonic DVX100.
http://www.callboxlive.com
DSLR Cinematography Blog


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Graeme Nattress
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 23, 2009 at 3:16:55 am

The R3D format is no more susceptible to corruption than any other file. I've always just copied using the finder, and have never had a corrupt R3D through doing that. Your milage may vary.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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joe hedge
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 23, 2009 at 8:07:26 pm


I attended at Panasonic P2 seminar where Stephen Beres (sp?), who was CTO for Plaster City at the time, specifically warned against drag and drop for R3D's due to wavelet compression being susceptible to corruption, the analogy used was the transporter beam from Star Trek...supposedly the "Transporter" (drag and drop) would transfer all the bytes, so that the numbers of bytes would match between the R3D on the camera drive and the target drive, but it might not be re-assembled correctly, which he referred to as "the Brundlefly effect". The resulting horrific imagery has kept me from ever considering drag and dropping R3D's and always using dedicated software ever since...



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gary adcock
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 23, 2009 at 8:27:14 pm

[joe hedge] "I attended at Panasonic P2 seminar where Stephen Beres (sp?), who was CTO for Plaster City at the time, specifically warned against drag and drop for R3D's due to wavelet compression being susceptible to corruption, "



Graeme is the guy that wrote the codec engine for RED, I trust his comments and insights, you should too.

So I wonder how does that foot taste about now??

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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joe hedge
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 23, 2009 at 8:46:22 pm


I'm perfectly willing to believe anything I'm told. I just always assumed programs like ShotPut Pro existed partly because drag and dropping was not a good idea, plus I was told by the CTO of Plaster City to always use dedicated software and never to drag and drop.

ShotPut Pro is also good for the multi-threading thing, e.g copying to up to 3 drives at the same speed as if you were only copying to one, which is a big deal when you're waiting for file transfers to finish so you can go home...



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Noah Kadner
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 24, 2009 at 3:07:36 am

Um that transporter/Brundlefly analogy presumes that digital copies from one hard drive or flash card to another are somehow analog and subject to attenuation. Not the case. Sure you can lose data integrity or a copy operation can fail but it's really really rare if everything is setup right and it's typically pretty obvious when it fails- i.e. an error message. And if you're really concerned- you get a copying setup with verification to checksum every bit. Not a way to lose here. :)

If we're talking RED though- this is a good copy program as well:

http://www.r3ddata.com/

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!. Unlock the secrets of the 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, and Panasonic DVX100.
http://www.callboxlive.com
DSLR Cinematography Blog


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gary adcock
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 24, 2009 at 2:00:05 pm

[joe hedge] " I just always assumed programs like ShotPut Pro existed partly because drag and dropping was not a good idea, plus I was told by the CTO of Plaster City to always use dedicated software and never to drag and drop."

You said you were told this at a P2 camp correct?

R3D files are different in the fact they can actually stand alone without file structure or RSX files. P2 is a very very different animal since if you copy only part of a P2 card there is often no way to reconstruct the file format back if only part of the P2 format is recorded.

I too use ShotPut and helped with the initial development of that product on for the ShotPut RED and the Pro versions and fully endorse what ImagineProducts has done with it.

I have known Steve for a number of years and he is as trained and talented as they come. I am thinking you asked one question and he answered in context of the information as given in P2 camp.

P2 is NOT the same as working on a RED camera, and when it comes to RED and R3D graeme is the guy. Even Steve would admit to that.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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joe hedge
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 24, 2009 at 6:07:27 pm


Not to get into a pissing match here, I am all about deferring to and learning from those with more knowledge and experience, but yes it was a P2 Bootcamp and yes I did specifically ask about drag and dropping R3D's, and they (Stephen and Sunny) responded by saying they had tons of experience with Red files, and that the wavelet compression Red uses was particularly susceptible to being corrupted by drag and dropping, to always use dedicated software, the transporter beam analogy, etc.



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Neil Abeynayake
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 25, 2009 at 10:44:32 pm

Gentlemen,

The answer to your question remains within your familiarity of file "copy" Vs "clone" commands.

From a human perspective, they appear to do the same thing. However, a computer perceives them as two different operations.

When you "drag and drop" a file, the computer executes a "copy" command. This is a logical operation. It reads the file in entirety and writes the file in logical sectors in a memory location (in RAM, memory card or a hard drive etc). The file "may" not be written sequentially as the original file was written. Instead it may get written in the "most" logical sequence the computer finds "economical" to do so. In other words, your computer may write a given file in a certain location on its hard drive then, it may skip a few sectors and write another part of the file in a different location. This operation will continue until the whole file is written. Especially if your hard drive is fragmented, the file may be written in many segments of your hard drive. Please note that each (frame) wavelet file of REDCODE is an individual file to the computer.

Before the computer starts to write a file; it initiates a write command - "a file open (array) structure command". This part contains information about what kind of a file, the file size, what segment it is being written to, how many splits the file had been segmented etc. At the end of each segment there is a temporary close/continuity hook written. And on the next segment there is a another hook to accept the continuity of the file and a closure/continuity hook. (The original file did NOT have this many interruptions and was written sequentially).

Sometimes these operations will add anomalies to a file such as wavelet file. This may create havoc when you try to use an editing software application. An editing app. may get confused. Especially when it has to deal with high load structures. It may refuse to work with you until you reboot the machine or correct the problem.

"Cloning" a file works quite differently. It takes a bit-by-bit replication process. We use (pretty much) a dedicated software application for this operation. The computer sees it as a different instruction than the "copy" command. At the end of each file the sums are compared with a "cyclic redundancy (error) check " (CRC), to compare what was cloned is indeed an exact replica of the original file. In this instance, the file (files are) written in the exact way the original was written and the file structure integrity is preserved. In essence, you have a "clone" of the original file.

I could go in to a very detailed explanation. But that would bore the most enthusiastic cinematographer. The key is to understand that there is a difference. Even though, it will work in most instances (clean - de-fragmented) hard drives with lots of unrestricted space, often the process fails and induces abnormalities. Thus, a discontinuity in your workflow.

So, if the manufacturer is suggesting a certain work/copy formula, stay with it.


Later . . .


Neil




"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else".

Confucius


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joe hedge
Re: Is the RDM name important?
on Sep 26, 2009 at 12:21:35 am

Gracias Neil, that is probably the way Stephen explained it, I do recall a lengthy diatribe during which accusatory stares were cast in my direction for asking the question and momentarily hijacking the seminar...

In any event I always make a point of using either brand-new or recently reformatted drives when archiving R3D's, so drag-and-drop would probably work just as well for me, but I definitely like the idea of cloning instead of copying for the reasons you mention so I think I'll just stick to using dedicated software.



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