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samer mahmoud
requirements to Edit 2k R3d files
on Sep 19, 2009 at 7:29:17 pm


i'm about to get the new mac pro with:

- 8 core: 2 * Quad-Core Intel Xeon 5500 series processors. (16 logical cores)

- 16 GB of rams
- ATI Radeon HD 4870 with 512MB of GDDR5 memory.
- Mac Pro RAID Card with 3 SAS 15000 rpm hard drives

would that be good enough to Edit 2K red files?
if not, what do i need.

and wich card is better to use? the KONA 3 , MXO2 Rack, or the DeckLink HD Extreme?

thanks , hope u can answer me soon.


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David Battistella
Re: requirements to Edit 2k R3d files
on Sep 19, 2009 at 10:46:21 pm



I suspect that you would want to transcode and do a traditional OFFLINE/ONLINE of your material. THere is not really enough RAM or computing power to try to edit RED natively at a 2K resolution.

You could get away with editing with the M proxie but I recommend using transcoded media.

We are a little while away from R3D real time 2K editing on a Mac.

David



Peace
Check out my new web series.
http://www.ripperhockey.com


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Neil Abeynayake
Re: requirements to Edit 2k R3d files
on Sep 20, 2009 at 9:10:27 am

samer,

David is correct in what you could and could not do with your planned purchase.

You also, stated:
"would that be good enough to Edit 2K red files?
if not, what do i need. "


It all depends on your budget and (to a certain extent) what platform that you are comfortable in using. And hope you are not considering going beyond 2k for real-time editing without additional hardware. An example would be; if you use an operating system with lower overhead (Linux), naturally your applications would run much faster. However this may not be a practical approach for a person who is not versed in that OS, driver availability on a given hardware/software app etc.

We have been beta testing HPC (High Performance Computing) processors during that past few years. Recently, we did setup a workstation with 2 X W5590 procs. To complement them we added 2 X ATI 4870's (cross-fired) each with 2 GBs DDR5 RAM. And the system has (currently) 16 GBs of DDR3. OS is Vista 64. And the app that we are testing is Assimilate Scratch 4.5.x. Even with this setup we are seeing bottlenecks arising when, we attempt to do .R3D (4k) real-time editing. (They will do "almost" real-time @4k, during these performance hits). This may not affect you (now) if you plan in staying at 2k resolution.

Few of the challenges that you might encounter and solutions are:

The Xeon® 5500 processor is optimized to be used on server environment than on a workstation. Some may argue that you could use them on workstations etc. However, you would get a better performance in using a processor (or two) specifically designed for workstation use (i.e. Intel® Xeon® processor W5590 series).

If you are using a PC based work-flow, you may be able to over clock your processors. many times over the rated settings (caution: Please do NOT attempt this unless you know what you are doing. You have to use specialized processor cooling hardware). (FIY): This action may void processor warranty if you are not careful.

I have heard that the RED ROCKET™ card will do real-time .R3D editing. And this may be a better solution for you. However, plan to shell out US$ 4,750.00 for the RED ROCKET board plus another US $1,200.00 for a RED ROCKET BREAKOUT BOX with Quad HDMI and Quad Dual Link HD-SDI, on top of your computers budget.


RED ROCKET board with Quad DVI and Dual Link HD-SDI:

• Decode and debayer 4K R3D files realtime. Hyper-accelerated transcode to any system codec. Specs to be posted upon completion of testing.

• Plays full quality realtime 4K to 4K monitor or projector from DVI output (requires RED BREAKOUT BOX). Plays full quality 2K/1080P scaled from 4K footage out the Dual Link HD-SDI from RED Rocket card.

• Plays full quality 2K scaled from 4K footage realtime through system graphics card and monitor.

Source: http://www.red.com/store/100-0012

If you could afford and your motherboard permits, add more RAM than 16 GBs.

Please understand, it is more expensive to work on beyond the 2k realm. It is not video anymore. It is digital cinema.

Hope this info will assist you in your endeavor.

Good luck.

Neil


"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else".


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: requirements to Edit 2k R3d files
on Sep 20, 2009 at 5:41:05 pm

In less than 2 weeks, our studio will start offering RED Rocket conversions at extremely cost effective rates.
Stay tuned or bookmark our page...

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Post Supervisor

- Visit our studio's website.
- RED Rocket Conversions.
- Follow us on Facebook. Become a fan!
- Duplication, Mastering and Teranex Conversions.


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Daniel Dunn
Re: requirements to Edit 2k R3d files
on Sep 22, 2009 at 3:04:43 am

Guys,
please forgive my ignorance, as I really am trying to learn about this Red stuff, but why do you need such a burly computer? Isn't 2k pretty much 1920X1080? Ok, I know Red is 4:4:4 color space, but how much does that add to the power needs? What else am I missing? Why is Red Code hard to work with? I think Red is the way of the very near future and I want to learn. What do I need to know and how can I plan for it? What resources are out there.
Thanks and I'm glad I found this forum.


Daniel
http://www.ddunnproductions.com


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cowcowcowcow
David Battistella
Re: requirements to Edit 2k R3d files
on Sep 22, 2009 at 3:46:20 am



OK.

RED records a 4K camera RAW file. This file needs to be converted (a process called de-bayering) from the RAW color space which it is created.

Currently that process does not happen in real time (even with the fastest macs). RED has currently release a RED ROCKET card that is specially tuned to make the De-Bayering process REAL TIME.

What is the advantage:

By recording RAW, as RED improves the De-bayering algorithms it means that the images can actually get better over time (shots you took last year look better because the way they are extracted from teh RAW data can be improved.

If people really understood what was going on under the hood, they might have a better sense of why RED is a pretty revolutionary system. Also, because you shoot RAW, nothing is baked into the shot. FOr example only film and a few other hogh end digital systems have this capability. There really isn't a HD Camera that compares because of the low data rate, heavy compression associated with most consumer, pro and Prosumer "quote unquote HD" formats out there.

This is not to say the R3D files are not compressed but consider that an 1920x10180 HD frame will fit into a RED 4K frame 4times and you can imagine the amount of data being captured.

David


I hope this helps.



Peace
Check out my new web series.
http://www.ripperhockey.com


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cowcowcowcow
Stuart Ferreyra
Re: requirements to Edit 2k R3d files
on Sep 22, 2009 at 3:27:43 pm

I had a conversation with RED engineers last week about RED Rocket. It is a pretty amazing piece of hardware in comparison to what we can do, in terms of time + quality, even with today's top-of-the-line Mac Pro and software only. The conversion and time savings go down from a 18:1 - 20:1 down to a 1:1 ratio (real-time) for a Full Res Debayer Quality which to me is the only way to go for color, compositing and/or finishing.

Real-time 4K to DPX at full quality is AMAZING!

The investment for a dedicated system is high though. A Mac Pro, Red Rocket, 8GB RAM and a monitor will add quickly to $11,000 - $12,000. That's not counting fast servers, video card and video monitor. The faster the entire system the faster the debayer. Speeds faster than real-time are very achievable.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Post Supervisor

- Visit our studio's website.
- RED Rocket Conversions.
- Follow us on Facebook. Become a fan!
- Duplication, Mastering and Teranex Conversions.


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Neil Abeynayake
Re: requirements to Edit 2k R3d files
on Sep 23, 2009 at 12:21:16 am

Hi Daniel,

You asked a bunch of questions about the RED camera, its workflow and hardware needed to complement that workflow. This subject is a broad one. To answer some of your questions one has to go beyond the scope of this discussion. So, I'll try to limit what is relevant to this article.

To comprehend what is stated here, you must have a fair understanding of how a RED digital cinema camera captures, process and stores imagery. http://www.red.com/cameras/technology/

Also, you have to consider the post production process (How and what to do after capturing digital imagery), before you begin your project. The industry has appropriately named this process the "workflow". One must determine the need and use all available options to figure out what is the "best" option to use in a given situation.

Your workflow starts long before pressing the record/capture button on your camera. An essential part of this process is the computer. Let's say that you have decided to go with the RED camera for your project. And you have decided to conform your movie in 2k. Once you have captured the "movie" the fun begins. Now you have do the post processing. In this application, computer is where you are going to edit, color grade and conform your project.

RED camera has an electronic sensor(12 Megapixel Mysterium™) to capture imagery. this sensor is 24.4mm x 13.7mm (Super35mm). The camera captures at 4k (4096×2304) per frame resolution natively. It records a RAW frame, at whatever the frame rate that you have selected. If you (could) look at this RAW frame, the header consists of proprietary information that is very likely encrypted as companies need to safe guard their technological and intellectual property assets. This 4k frame is a large file. Multiply that by the selected frame rate per second. You will see that we are dealing with large file sectors here. This file then goes through a "Raw Bayer" quantization (Chroma sampling) process at a bit depth of 12. The camera's onboard electronics do a lot of processing and enclosures all of this data in a "wrapper", to give you a manageable file size. All this comes at a price. Wavelet compression that RED uses is a "lossy" one. You cannot exactly replicate what the camera sensor captured in entirety. Even at this level, the REDCODE RAW delivers data at 220 Mbit/s and file sizes at various compressions are 1.87Gbit/s (RC28) 2.14Gbit/s (RC36). Hmm . . . you may ask " What! my computer has to handle such large files to do post work?".

Well . . . . . like David Battistella stated earlier, the computer needs to convert (in simple terms) 4k capture to a 2k resolution when you request (if that is what you want). Then it has to color correct and/or conform current file/s to your final delivery format. Yes, you NEED a "burly" computer for this process. Also, please remember that RED 2k is above current HD format.

Estimated Data Rates for the most commonly used Uncompressed HD formats

720p24 HD needs about 65 Megabytes per second
1080 24psf HD needs about 150 megabytes per second
1080i 29.97 HD needs about 175 megabytes per second
1080 4:4:4 @ 24fps needs about 220 Megabytes per second
2K (DPX @ 24fps) needs about 275 Megabytes per second
4K (DPX @ 24fps) needs about 1250 Megabytes per second


[Daniel Dunn] stated; What resources are out there.

You can start here.

http://www.red.com/faq/



[Daniel Dunn] Thanks and I'm glad I found this forum.

You bet! I remember reading what Creative COW co-founder Ron Lindeboom had e-mailed me, "Even if you did not contribute by posting in the forum, you will learn a heck of a lot by simply, being in here".


Good luck


Neil




"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else".


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