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RED just got some competition

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Gary Snyder
RED just got some competition
on Sep 12, 2009 at 12:40:54 am


It looks like RED will have some competition over the next year..
Arri just announced a new 35mm native HD camera...

http://www.arridigital.com/


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Noah Kadner
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 12, 2009 at 4:39:38 am

Yes their cameras are sweet- but the prices are not what I'd call a direct competitor to RED. ARRI starts at around $70K for a 3.5K camera vs. RED's $17.5K for a 4K camera, so I'd say they're in different market segments. Also I have to admit I'm a little surprised their viewfinder isn't optical. That would be a big plus over RED, which just this IBC announced an upcoming optical viewfinder for EPIC.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!. Unlock the secrets of the 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, and Panasonic DVX100.
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Gary Snyder
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 12, 2009 at 12:56:48 pm

Good morning Noah..

Yes... RED makes the best 17.5K 35mm digital camera. Before RED,
the major manufacturers did not have a camera to compete.
With the announcement from ARRI, with the new cameras - to be
out next year - you will have a choice of electronic or optical viewfinder.

The ARRI brand will secure some positions in rental companies because of their solid reputation for product and service.

I expect Panasonic and Grass (Viper) to soon provide a 35mm alternative.

Again, nothing against RED... but now there are starting to be
options... and cost is not always the deciding factor in purchasing a high end HD camera..

In reality, I think the new ARRI now causes significant competition for the F-23 and even the F-35 camera..

Gary...



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Noah Kadner
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 12, 2009 at 5:48:49 pm

Yeah I'd agree with you on that- Sony and Panavision have a lot more to fear from ARRI than RED does.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!. Unlock the secrets of the 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, and Panasonic DVX100.
http://www.callboxlive.com


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Nigel Thompson
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 13, 2009 at 3:12:35 pm

I agree totally but lets not negate the fact that RED is eating into everyone's territory.

To so called "purists" and brand name junkies (and that includes me), Arri's REAL jump into D Cinema is a great thing and it is. But i fear they and most others may be a little late to the party.

If u can get a camera that can do just what Arri's are doing for less than half the price and is built solidly with great support etc., quality up to par and everything, which would u buy?

Peter Jackson and many other filmmakers seem to think RED.

So Let the games begin ! Sorry but i think Sony is a bit over priced for features they offer, my humble opinion

HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
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Bob Zelin
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 14, 2009 at 1:09:46 am

what makes me happy about conversations like this is the reality of film dying out (35mm and of course 16mm) is finally happening. I remember the film editors saying that video editing (linear) would never affect their business, and the linear editors said that AVID would never affect their business (and these days, the "real" editors - AVID editors - say that FCP would never affect their business).

It just makes me happy to see every generation of OLD BAGS die off in pain, seeing their little world fizzle out. Arri, being a modern, progressive company is not stupid - just a bunch of old DP's that can't learn anything new. So as Epic, and other hi end products develop, the old bags will die off, just like they have in the past.

Learn or die. And old prima donna's - bye bye ! There is no "young and old" - there is only people willing to keep up, and people that are not willing to keep up.

Competition is good for Red - be it an Arri D21, or a low end Canon EOS D7.

Bob Zelin




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Gary Snyder
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 14, 2009 at 1:55:49 am

Great comments Bob....

I bet you have personally seen many of the changes happen in front of your own eyes, just like I have... I started my company in the early 80's with 3/4 inch tape and then Beta... I even filled out empty days doing sound with CP-16 and Arri SR sound packages... Video would never replace film, then came 1" in the field and beta... and on, and on..

RED has captured a significant portion of the marketplace. I would not have believed it just a few years ago. They have (and are) waking up the "sleeping giants" who have been giving us what they wanted us to eat for the last few years...

I wish Arri luck...I think they will need to re-adjust prices
to truly compete with the red.. but they allowed RED to get a significant lead.. as well as Grass with the Viper... which needs to be upgraded.

I suspect Panasonic will have a 35mm sensor camera by NAB - with
an on-board AVC-Ultra codec... which will re-capture a good part of the marketplace that wants the large format imager but with data files that are not as large.

Yes... I think RED does have some competition... which only benefits
us..

I'm glad this conversation has continued to be very civil..

Gary...







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Kris Anderson
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 14, 2009 at 2:39:22 am

Very true. Adapt or die. Evolution, as it were.


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Mike Most
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 14, 2009 at 10:00:31 pm

Bob, you're an intelligent guy who, in general, understands what he's talking about. That said...

In this post, you sound like an uninformed, uneducated, 17 year old ignorant fanboy. "Old bags seeing their little world fizzle out??" "A bunch of old DP's that can't learn anything new?" Where do you get these things, from a bunch of 15 year olds? The world is full of products, companies, and markets. The market for Red is not the market for Arri. Never has been. Likely never will be. Then again, the market for Arri - and Panavision, and the Sony high end products - has not exactly been embracing Red with open arms. If you actually look at what's being used in the market these products serve, you would find that in the network television world, about 95% of the network shows being shot on digital formats this season are on either Genesis, F35, F23, or D21 - with only one on Panasonic 3700, and one on Red. That's fact, not fanboy fiction. And in the case of feature films, at the studio level that these products also serve, about 80% or more of all features are being shot on ...... Film. And of the ones that aren't, the most popular digital cameras are, once again, Genesis and F35. Once again, not hot Internet news, but simple fact.

I am not diminishing the significance of what Red has brought to the table. It is significant, and will likely become more significant, but it is not going to take over the world and it is not going to take over the higher end market that is more concerned with quality, reliability, and usability than it is price. In the lower budgeted independent world, there are different requirements and thus different choices. But your failure to recognize that the independent world is not the studio and network television world is leading you to make some pretty ridiculous and juvenile statements, particularly for a man with your knowledge and intelligence.



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Bob Zelin
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 14, 2009 at 11:51:48 pm

I didn't realize I was comparing RED and Arri D21- and I don't think that anyone calls me a Red "fanboy". My hysterical statements were based on old timers (like us) - but the ones that REFUSE to learn anything new. "Don't tell me, nothing will ever replace CMX" - there was someone (was it you?) that said that "most shows are STILL being on lined in LA in linear bays with Aacom Axials" - what utter nonsense. Linear is dead. The facilities that owned them all over the country are out of business. I believe that it was you that said "many of the real editors for shows and features in LA are still working on AVID Meridian systems". These are the very people that I attack. I was there long before the Meridian systems (and ABVB systems, and everything else) - I loathe these people that have made their "big investment" and now refuse to move foward. I have seen this since the beginning of my career (in 1978) - "professionals" get good at using certain technology, and then REFUSE to learn anything new, adapt anything new, or acknowlege anything new. I've seen it with CMX, Abekas, Ampex, Grass Valley (oh yea, the "real" film guys who were cutting on Kems and Steenbecks) - all the way thru the current industry with AVID's, and our current assortment of products from Apple, Adobe, Assimilate, and others. You KEEP MOVING FOWARD, and find the people that refuse to do this, and phase them out. I can give you example after example (from the stone age) of people who were great with GPI triggering, and refused to learn GVG EMEM's. The cameramen who refused to get rid of their HL-79D tube cameras (because chip cameras suck). And now RED. I am not a fanboy - anything but. You don't hear me saying "wow Jim, that's great". But EVERYONE must continue to move foward, and WE should not support those that want to continue to work with their Arri BL2's, AVID Meridian systems, Sony BVM CRT's (that are getting so soft, you can't even see an image anymore), etc, etc. Everything that we use today will be poop 10 years from now, and we must continue to move foward, and push aside those that simply refuse to do it.

Remember, I am the original AVID tech from NY, and I know why AVID is so widely used on the "award winning shows" - the rental houses own them, and can make more money with them, because many of the "pros" simply won't buy their own gear. Those that do own their own gear buy things today like FCP. I see the internal dilemma between older and younger users at Fox and Disney on a daily basis when it comes to AVID vs. FCP. And cameramen who are buying new packages are buying RED's, and other hi def, 2k and 4k systems - not film.

If I in any way gave the impression that it's "RED ONLY", and everything else (like Genesis, D21, Sony F23's, etc) sucks - then I certainly foolishly worded my response. My "attack" was to the estabilished film community, and not the other cameras. I have known as many well known and established editors as you have, and I know exactly what the mind set of many of these guys are (that are our age).

Bob Zelin




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Terence Curren
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 15, 2009 at 12:08:10 am

[Bob Zelin] "I don't think that anyone calls me a Red "fanboy"."


Now that's funny!


Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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Mike Most
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 15, 2009 at 1:23:39 am

>there was someone (was it you?) that said that "most shows are STILL being on lined in LA in linear bays >with Aacom Axials" - what utter nonsense..

I said that over two years ago. At the time I said it, it wasn't "utter nonsense," it was true.

>Linear is dead. The facilities that owned them all over the country are out of business..

Really? Encore, Modern Videofilm, Level 3 Post, Laser Pacific, Riot, and The Post Group are all out of business? I must not be paying attention...

>I believe that it was you that said "many of the real editors for shows and features in LA are still >working on AVID Meridian systems".

Also said over two years ago. Also true at the time.

Bob, I get your points. And I'm just as aware - if not more so - of the reluctance of skilled editors and others to change methodologies and tools. For 5 years at Lorimar, part of my job was to move film editors over to devices like Ediflex. Not an easy task, especially in 1986. This isn't a contest to prove who knows more editors or who is more up to date on technology. You have your areas of expertise, and I have mine. You have a lot of expertise in areas that I don't, and vice versa. But the title of this thread is "Red just got some competition," and if you re-read what you wrote:

>It just makes me happy to see every generation of OLD BAGS die off in pain, seeing their little world >fizzle out. Arri, being a modern, progressive company is not stupid - just a bunch of old DP's that >can't learn anything new.

This not only smacks of rampant ageism (surprising because you're not exactly in your 20's and neither am I), but it shows a serious disrespect for those who have spent their lives in this industry in a way that I usually only hear from teenage wannabes who think that only they understand the world. It also implies that the innate talent of a cinematographer - which is conceiving, lighting, and photographing images in order to help tell a story visually, skills that are acquired over many years of experience - is unimportant when compared to the obviously superior skill of operating equipment or computers. And I still don't know if you were putting Arri in this category of "old bags" or not, because I really can't decipher what you're trying to say.

If you feel glee in seeing "old bags die off in pain," I would keep that to yourself, because there are probably a lot of people here and elsewhere who put you (and me) in that category. Be careful what you wish for.




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Bob Zelin
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 15, 2009 at 1:54:30 am

Mike Most writes -

"Be careful what you wish for"

REPLY -
I take offense to this comment. As early as April 2008, I knew almost nothing about shared storage for post production enviornments. I never learned AVID Unity, or XSAN. And I knew, with a sick feeling in my stomach, that at age 52, if I didn't start learning, I would be unemployed very soon - and you know what - I studied, and I learned. Gee, 1 year later, I actually know all this stuff, and people think that I know what I am even talking about when it comes to shared storage enviornments. Literally today, I was asked by Fox to setup a Telestream Flip Factory - I never did this, and you know what, I just downloaded the manual. I know very well that I will suffer thru this, and have to make lots of phone calls to learn how to do this (while others know very well how to do this blindfolded) - but I will learn. Just like you became an expert in RED workflow, and Assimilate Scratch. While most of your peers fell behind, not knowing a fraction of what you know.

There are those of us "experienced" people out there that just fade away, and there are those that keep current with what is important. I know very well that the NEW YOUNGER CLIENTS will not be shooting in Panavision, but will shoot with Arri D21, Genesis, Viper, F23 and RED. While the "real professionals" will continue to shoot in 35mm (with their incredible skills as DP's) - and you know what - they will die off very quickly, just like the best CMX editors died off, with rare exception.

I once again feel that products like Arri D21 (and even the Canon EOS D7 which I mentioned in my original post on this thread) are GREAT competition for RED, and products like these will continue to evolve, and change our industry. There is no one more excited than me to see products like Euphonix MC_Color, or more excited to see that Grant at Blackmagic took over the old bags at DaVinci near both of us in Coral Springs - hopefully to revive and move foward this fantastic company.

Out with the old, in with the new.

Bob Zelin






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Mike Most
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 15, 2009 at 4:13:04 am

FYI: I moved back to Los Angeles almost 5 months ago.

I would also say that your assumption about experienced, talented cameramen is largely conjecture, and incorrect conjecture. Many, if not the vast majority, of the best - and most experienced - shooters I know not only have no fear of new technology, but have embraced it. They also know what "best" means, and what "most appropriate for the project" means. The truth is that no current electronic camera - Genesis, D21, F35, and Red all very much included - can produce the image that 35mm film can. So for most of those cameramen, when the budget allows, and when the story is appropriate, will still choose film at this point in time because nothing else is as good. That has nothing to do with keeping up with technology, "seeing the future," or anything else you want to throw at it. It simply means they're honest. As the technology improves, that situation will ultimately change, and as it does, the best cameramen will change with it. Until then, it remains another tool, to be used when appropriate and to not be used when it's not appropriate. That doesn't make them old bag luddites, it makes them honest, talented artists.

We'll see what becomes of DaVinci. I'm not making any predictions.




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Steve Wargo
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 14, 2009 at 4:16:12 am

[Nigel Thompson] "Sorry but i think Sony is a bit over priced"

Crap Nigel. I wish you'd told me this sooner.



Steve Wargo
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It's a dry heat!

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Nigel Thompson
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 14, 2009 at 10:15:50 am

Ok Let me Re-phrase:

Sony F23 / 35 's are over priced in my humble opinion.

I think the HD CAM/SR deck lines are as well. Mid range and lower line cameras are competitively priced.

I think All these company s need to review their structure. gone are the days of ridiculously high profit margins. RED set up its business in a manner that allowed it to charged 17.5K for a camera, which means (to me at least) High end cameras in that range need not be over 100K as we have been groomed to accept over the years.

As the guys said before, adapt or die ! I have been a Sony fan for years but there is no way in hell i'm gonna invest in an F35. For my Broadcast projects (commercials etc) i either send the finished piece to a transfer house or the TV stations run on servers so they accept files. HDCAM deck? why? 98K for a deck in todays tapeless world, wow man

Some of these companies are killing themselves, non-evolution of manufacturing processes or whatever, they need to change something, because they are not getting ahead by pricing products like that.

But yuh know what at the end of the day we, the consumers , will be benefiting the most.

my humble opinion

HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
http://www.bistt.com


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 14, 2009 at 4:04:57 pm

Add DCP for cinema delivery and the entire process can be 100% digital. Although, HDCam SR will be with us for a long time, I just wish Sony would lower the price. I agree with you guys, it is way overpriced.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President / Colorist / Post Supervisor

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Nigel Thompson
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 15, 2009 at 1:48:11 am

SR may very well be around for a while but how much will it be used in years to come as everything goes more and more tape less at a faster pace then the eye can blink.

i always rented cameras when i started my own biz 11 years ago, betacams mostly and 3 years ago i bought an HVX200 and some P2 cards then we started shooting RED earlier this year. Unless the show im working on gets picked up by discovery i aint buying sh^^^, and even then i'll try to avoid it, no deck no time no how. know why? I don't need it. and im sure most you don't either. the paradigm shift is happening whether we like it or not. Sony and others need to recognize this and get on the damn bus.
Develop tape less solutions, work around, fixes enhancements, good archival etc etc, thats what Sony needs to do to stay profitable.

OOps to late AJA beat you to it, (Ki Pro)

HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
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Simon Temple
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 21, 2009 at 3:45:55 pm

Hi Gary
I really like the look of the Arri range. And yes you are right, the film-to-digital converts will probably veer toward Arri, and Rental houses will probably continue their allegiance to Arri for support. But in the current climate with diminishing commercial/drama/feature film budgets, Where will rental houses see their return come from? In your view, who will rent these units? Low budget features are comfortably soaking up the RED cameras worldwide (key word:budget), Loads of commercials seem to still use 1080 as the final output, and surely these cameras wont take the workload off the D21! Is there a big enough gap in-between these markets?


Simon
RED one, HPX2700(P2), MacPro FCS3, Arri master primes, Canon zooms, Steadicam Clipper


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Meryem Ersoz
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 16, 2009 at 1:02:13 pm

my 4K RED is now a 4.5K RED, for the record, and EPIC will be released before the freshly announced Arri cams see the light of day -- and when that happens, I am betting that RED will be producing a no-compromises camera, the best choice at any price.

The Arri cameras look great, but at the point at which the EPIC is released, their prices will be based more on reputation and perception.

I think RED has more to fear from Canon than Arri - after all, they did not sell over 6500 4K digital cinema cameras to Arri's customer base...I'm willing to bet that the majority of these owners perceived themselves as moving up the technology food chain, Peter Jackson and Steven Soderbergh notwithstanding, not as taking a step down....

RED invented a potential customer base for Arri, not the other way around...



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Nigel Thompson
Re: RED just got some competition
on Sep 16, 2009 at 4:33:24 pm

TOTALLY agree with the canon argument !

The thing is both Nikon and Canon can record RAW right now but maybe not at 23.98 or 29.97 but i am sure they are working in the tech for it.

When that happens ...........

boy oh boy

HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
http://www.bistt.com


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