FORUMS: list search recent posts

Here ya go, RedHeads

COW Forums : RED Camera

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Steve Wargo
Here ya go, RedHeads
on Oct 17, 2007 at 10:37:42 pm

http://www.codexdigital.com/portable/page2.php

Price?

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

Bob Zelin
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads
on Oct 18, 2007 at 12:44:57 am

from your post -
FAQ
If I use a Codex system on my film shoot, doesn't this tie me into using post houses who also own this system?
No. Codex contains a unique Virtual File System feature, which allows all original material to be exported in a wide variety of industry-standard formats. There is no such thing as a 'Codex format' shot - all source material recorded into the system is recorded in native format (rather than being converted on the way in) meaning that you and your post-house can choose the most suitable file-formats after the shoot, rather than being 'stuck' with material recorded using a format you later regret!

REPLY - this looks like a recorder for the Dalsa camera. "Dalsa, what's Dalsa - it's not RED". I saw a blurb in one of the video mags on a recorder for the Arri D20, but the Arri, Dalsa, Viper, and others don't have the "cool factor" that RED has. Will RED become like AVID, and not be compatible with products like Codex Digital, because they want propriatary products ? I guess we will see.

Great post Steve !

Bob Zelin


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads
by
on Oct 18, 2007 at 7:51:54 am

[Bob Zelin] "Will RED become like AVID, and not be compatible with products like Codex Digital, because they want propriatary products ?"
Hi,

RED is already compatible with generic, off-the-shelf Compact Flash. You can't get much more non-proprietary than that - especially in a world of Panasonic-only "P2" and Sony-only "Professional Disc."

If you need more storage than that, the 320GB RED-DRIVE (which holds 2+ hours of 4K) starts shipping in 2 weeks. And at $900, it's a lot nicer on the budget than lugging the codex around.

Relax, all is good.

Best,

H


Return to posts index


Bob Zelin
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 18, 2007 at 12:48:38 am

this is not a "cool find", like Steve's, and it's right off the Red website, but to add to the list

http://www.keisoku.co.jp/en/


Bob Zelin


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 18, 2007 at 4:17:04 am

It weighs 22 pounds and has a handle = portable

It draws 235 watts = it needs a Kenworth battery to power it in the field. Battery weighs 105 pounds. Crap!

Boy, if it ain't one thing, it's something else.

What ever became of The Director's Friend? The thing they used for The Russian Ark.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 18, 2007 at 2:38:31 pm

I was at Cine Gear 07 and missed this thing entirely. I have not been able to find a price (I can't find my glasses when they're in my pocket or on top of my head, either).

Be sure to see page 2 of the Q & A.


Return to posts index


Noah Kadner
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 19, 2007 at 6:18:36 am

The Codex is a sweet piece of gear but entirely $$$ overkill for Red- the CF cards Red sells are $199 and work like a charm.

Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, Apple Color and now the HVX200!
http://www.callboxlive.com


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 19, 2007 at 9:05:47 am

[Noah Kadner] "and work like a charm."
So, the cards are it? They hold how much video and how many channels of audio?

Yeah, I'll bet the feature film guys are going to stock up on those cards. Leaving that task up to the camera guy? Right!



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 19, 2007 at 10:14:57 pm

[Steve Wargo] "They hold how much video and how many channels of audio?
"

4 1/2 minutes of 4K REDCODE on each 8GB card. 16GB is expected soon; the workflow is similar to P2.

The release of the RED-DRIVE is also imminent; while it's not solid state, it does hold over 2 hours of 4K REDCODE.

4 channels of audio in all modes, though audio recording is not currently enabled. The hardware is in place, firmware updates will activate it when it is ready.

Cheers,

H


Return to posts index


Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 20, 2007 at 3:24:33 pm

[H?akon] "4 1/2 minutes of 4K REDCODE on each 8GB card"

How absurd. What are you going to shoot with that?



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

Michael Pierre
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 20, 2007 at 3:43:53 pm

What's so absurd about it? It's no different than the P2 card workflow.


Return to posts index

Todd at Fantastic Plastic
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 20, 2007 at 4:19:50 pm

In re 4 1/2 minutes of shooting on an 8GB card...

[Steve Wargo] "How absurd. What are you going to shoot with that?"

Ummm... exactly the things that film shooters have been shooting for almost a century now. In fact, that's four seconds longer than 400' of 35mm stock, not counting lead-in and roll-out. I know, I know, there are 1000' mags, but most DPs I know including myself generally shoot 400' mags (and 1000 feet is still only 11 minutes, anyway).

That's why I've said for so long (and continue to say) that RED is being clamoured over by the wrong audience. Most videographers will be baffled by such a short run time (and why do they need 4K anyway?... I've yet to figure that one out). Whereas most real cinematograhers won't give it a second thought... changing a card is a lot easer than changing a mag anyway (not to mention reloading one).

RED's tool for digital cinematography... not videography (which I still say is not a real word).




T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com






Return to posts index


Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 21, 2007 at 6:07:47 pm

[Todd at Fantastic Plastic] "RED's tool for digital cinematography... not videography"

So Todd, just for conversation's sake, what are the actual costs involved with that 400' film roll?

Film, shipping, processing, more shipping, transfer to something that is editable in a computer.

Let's say that you pull the CF card from RED and plug it into a device and now it appears on your computer, ready to edit and compare the cost of doing the same with 400' of film. I'm going for terminology that those new to the business can understand.

I feel that the Rec camera is a step closer in being able to pull an image close to the look of film without the costs and time involved in shooting film but what is the actual cost of doing it in 35?



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

Todd at Fantastic Plastic
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 21, 2007 at 7:07:58 pm

[Steve Wargo] "what are the actual costs involved with that 400'...?"

Hmmm... if one is judicious (buys recans from a reputible broker, has a good lab with a great/fast colorist, etc.), probably averages just a smidge over $300...maybe $350 for a roll's worth. Pretty small potatoes. Everyone seems to think film is soooo expensive, but it doesn't have to be (now, if one pays full MSRP to Mother Kodak and full "rack rates" to an expensive lab like Technicolor or DuArt, then the number can go way up).

Now compare that with shooting the eqivalent footage with a RED. I'm sure the footage will look beautiful... maybe just as good... if not as good, it will probably be comparable. But so far it seems that there are a lot of hoops to jump through to turn RED footage into ready-to-jump-in-and-edit-with footage. How long? No idea, I'm not a RED guy (yet). But even if it only takes an hour and you normally have a suite-time rate of $300 or $350, then your "free" RED footage has already cost you (or rather, your client) just as much as "real" film. If it takes you two hours to get the footage ready, then it's more expensive.

I freely admit that is a very specific and limited scenario. I'm just throwing out some best-case numbers that Steve asked for.

I personally think RED's big benefit will be (or should be) ease of production... not necessarily a way to get productions done cheaply. After all, on a mid-budget project or larger often times a day's bill for craft services is greater than the bill for filmstock... the actual film itself is not the budget-eater. The budget often predomiently goes to the larger crew that is often used (whether needed or not), and to the fact that film is typically a bit slower to setup and shoot than video, ergo fewer setups/scenes/pages can be accomplished with film. SO far, at least, it doesn't seem that RED is making that faster... if anything, it seems to be making it slower, just based on the production blogs that I have read. I'll attribute much of that to use of a product that is in such extreme infancy that it really hasn't even been fully born yet... once all the hardware/software/firmware is in place (and it seems that, as a casual observer, it has a ways to go), hopefully that will get much much faster.

I personally think RED could be one of the greatest things since sliced cheese (and I really like cheese). I also think it was just simply released too early... and that it obviously was released simply because sooo many people who had forked over their hard-earned deposit money were starting to grumble loudly enough that the RED powers decided to "give 'em juuust a taste" to appease them for a while as the product development continued. I mean seriously, would a car manufacturer ever roll out a new model with the provision "Now this model won't go in reverse or past second gear just yet, but be patient." Obviously they did it the way they did to get people's cash for R&D up front. It's amazing really, I would have never thought they could have pulled that off (but hey, no one thought FedEx would work as a business model, either).

If RED had waited until the product was completely totally 100% ready for action to roll it out (if they had been able to afford to do that), it would definitely have really shaken things up. As is, it is still shaking things up, and the end result might be exactly the same... only it's taking an infinite number of tiny baby steps to get there.

I guess I personally just have a little more respect for companies that play it a bit closer to the vest, and suddenly BAM! you have a new ready-to-go product that maybe you didn't even know was coming (Canon did this, pretty much springing the little XLH1 on everyone), as opposed to companies that absolutely tease you to death about something that in the end literally takes years to be realized.

At least it's keeping the "blog industry" alive. :)


T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com






Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 23, 2007 at 6:47:42 am

[Todd at Fantastic Plastic] "But so far it seems that there are a lot of hoops to jump through to turn RED footage into ready-to-jump-in-and-edit-with footage. How long? No idea, I'm not a RED guy (yet). But even if it only takes an hour and you normally have a suite-time rate of $300 or $350, then your "free" RED footage has already cost you (or rather, your client) just as much as "real" film."
Hi Todd,

I think your numbers are fair, but keep in mind that a lot of independent productions (be it feature work or small prod. companys shooting for commercial clients) utilizing RED. If I shoot on film, I have no way of getting that footage into the computer other than sending it out to a developer and bringing it to a telecine bay. Even if that only cost me a dollar, it's a dollar more than it costs for me to take the card out of my camera, pop it into a reader, and drag the files from the card to my system. I don't buy the extra "suite time" rate needed to do this. Sure, you're going to pay someone nicely to color grade the footage, cut it up, whatever - but you have to do that with your film, too. As far as getting the content from the cam to the box is concerned, that costs nothing. Unless you want to charge someone for it. :-)

H


Return to posts index


Todd at Fantastic Plastic
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 23, 2007 at 1:58:22 pm

[H


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 24, 2007 at 4:51:00 am

[Todd at Fantastic Plastic] "Ummm... that's exactly my point. I WOULD want to charge someone for it. Time is money."

Hi Todd,

I completely respect your perspective on this and I absolutely agree with you. Everyone who makes their living in this industry feels the same way. I just get the feeling you haven't worked with any RED footage yet, and perhaps that's why we are experiencing a disconnect. I base that assumption mostly on this:

[Todd at Fantastic Plastic] "I don't think there's anyone that will say editing RED footage is as easy as pulling a card from the camera, stick it in the NLE, and immediately start chopping away, YET."

The thing is, that's exactly how you deal with the RED footage. Once it's shot, it's simply a matter of putting the card into a reader and copying the files to a hard drive. It's so easy, a monkey could do it. In the same folder as the main .R3D RAW file are quicktime-wrapped proxies that can be instantly dragged into whatever NLE you prefer for cutting. The process literally takes seconds. There is no time and expense of developing film, no more digitizing tape - even the transcoding process one has to go through with P2 has been eliminated. Perhaps people aren't aware of how the workflow really is carried out - and it's understandable because the production cameras are so new. But that "hour's worth of your suite time" that you're wanting to be paid for is no longer a part of the picture. That was the point I was trying to make. Perhaps this is frustrating for individuals who make a good deal of their income getting footage to a "ready-to-cut stage," but (with RED at least), they're going to have to find new ways to fill that gap. Fighting it just because it effects your bottom line isn't going to change the way it is.

Note that this has nothing to do with grading footage or editing it - we're just talking about the ingestion process. Once it's in the computer, it will take the same amount of time to cut and color correct regardless of the acquisition format.

Also, please understand that from a price perspective, RED is absolutely a bridge between the equipment the "HDV guys" use and the professional digital options that have previously been available. It doesn't fall squarely into either category. This has also caused some upset as it renders more expensive (and yet, less advanced) equipment much less valuable, and it puts "quality" tools in the hands of shooters who some feel aren't skilled enough to be using them. Of course RED's very existence will increase the amount of 4K crap that's out there, but is that really a big problem? No one's forcing you, me, or anyone else to watch it.

There will be plenty of "idealistic fresh-out-of-school young filmmakers with time and energy to burn" who will utilize RED for their projects (whether they rent the camera or buy it for themselves), and in a lot of ways I think that's a good thing. You have no choice with RED but to deal with 35mm DOF, operate everything manually, and get your craft in tune. There are no shortcuts. Maybe it will take inexperienced shooters awhile to get the hang of it, and maybe some will get frustrated with the skill it takes and put it down. But you can't conquer those obstacles without first being able to practice them. The expense of dealing with film makes the kind of instant-feedback learning curve that the digital workflow provides impossible. Just look to the dSLR world for proof of that.

The main point, however, is that no one who chooses to shoot RED is going to be willing to pay someone a hefty premium to copy data files from a compact flash card to a hard drive like they would have to pay a specialist to develop and scan their stock. I unequivocally believe that the cost savings with RED are enormous for smaller-sized productions where film takes up a good deal of the budget. Even if you are getting a great deal on stock, processing, and telecine, it's still going to cost (scads) more than a $200 CF card that can be reused an infinite number of times. How anyone can refute that is beyond me.

Clearly, RED won't be the best choice for every project and no matter how good digital technology gets there will always be purists who refuse to find it to be an acceptable alternative for the aesthetic of film. But let's at least acknowledge that there are areas where RED clearly has advantages regardless of that choice.


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 24, 2007 at 5:32:48 am

You've made a few good points there, Haakon, so let's see how it plays out. Again. we're not trying to beat up the product, but, it was released prematurely and it is what it is and it isn't what it's going to be until it's that, too.

In other words, so far so good. But, like we've been saying for going on two years, we will evaluate the features when there are features to evaluate, not till then.

At this time, you have 4 1/2 minutes of record time per card? That is exactly why I didn't get into film when it was actually film. I stayed in the high paying corporate video world where it was clean and simple. I worked on film jobs and it was just like working with smokers: Just when you get going, someone needs a "break". No thanks.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index


H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 24, 2007 at 5:47:10 am

[Steve Wargo] "it is what it is and it isn't what it's going to be until it's that, too."

No arguments there. Jim has made it very clear to reservation holders that if they would rather wait until the cameras are "fully complete" that there is no penalty for doing so and their cameras will be available for immediate pickup at that time. Everyone who has possession of a RED camera at this time is fully understanding of the fact that they are not fully feature-enabled and bumps in the road are to be expected. That being said, no one has taken him up on the offer so far; warts and all, it's still capturing amazing images.

[Steve Wargo] "At this time, you have 4 1/2 minutes of record time per card?"
RED-DRIVES should start shipping in less than a week. Over two hours of 4K onboard should your production require extended shooting times. And clearly, as card capacities increase, so will recording times. Again, if one wishes to wait, there is always that option.

[Steve Wargo] "Like we've been saying for going on two years, we will evaluate the features when there are features to evaluate, not till then."
Again, agreed. As of this very moment, 4K/24p is fully possible to evaluate. That is the core of the camera, and in my opinion, what the vast majority of people will be shooting with RED. If you'd like to stop by for a test, I would be more than happy to share.


Return to posts index

Mike Most
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 24, 2007 at 4:31:42 pm

>In the same folder as the main .R3D RAW file are >quicktime-wrapped proxies that can be instantly dragged into >whatever NLE you prefer for cutting. The process literally >takes seconds. There is no time and expense of developing film, >no more digitizing tape - even the transcoding process one has >to go through with P2 has been eliminated. Perhaps people >aren't aware of how the workflow really is carried out - and >it's understandable because the production cameras are so new.

Except for one major caveat. If the NLE you're using happens to be Final Cut Pro - the much-preferred software of Red and most of the users at this point in time - you can't play the timeline you edit into until you render it, because Final Cut doesn't really know about the codec you're using. At this point (10/24/07, at 12:27PM EST in the US) there is no way to create a sequence using the Red codec. So everything you drop into the timeline will have a red render bar above it, meaning that you can't play it in real time until you render. I wouldn't exactly call this a "workflow," at least not yet. The truth is that to do any kind of fluid editing using Final Cut at the moment, you need to export those files to Quicktime files with a known codec (be that Prores, DVCPro, or whatever) in order to be able to play your edited material efficiently.

Those using Red right now are jumping through some hoops in order to make post production work, whether they are admitting that or not. It is not really ready for a more general audience until those hoops are minimized or eliminated.


Return to posts index

Todd at Fantastic Plastic
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 25, 2007 at 12:59:03 pm

[Mike Most] "Those using Red right now are jumping through some hoops in order to make post production work, whether they are admitting that or not."

See... that's what I thought. Not being a RED user myself yet, I was just about to concede to H


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Nov 15, 2007 at 9:21:56 am

[Todd at Fantastic Plastic] "See... that's what I thought. Not being a RED user myself yet, I was just about to concede to H


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 24, 2007 at 5:22:49 am

I always laugh when someone says that it doesn't cost anything because they "are doing it themselves on their own equipment". In other words, their time and their equipment is worth absolutely nothing. ZERO! Now there's a return on investment for you.



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 24, 2007 at 5:39:00 am

[Steve Wargo] "
I always laugh when someone says that it doesn't cost anything because they "are doing it themselves on their own equipment". In other words, their time and their equipment is worth absolutely nothing. ZERO! Now there's a return on investment for you."


Hi Steve,

I think the concept is that once your equipment is paid for (not difficult when there are limited cameras in production and high demand in the market), it costs you nothing when you want to use it for yourself. Sounds like a pretty good return on investment to me.

Perhaps you prefer the expense of having to purchase, process, and scan film every time you want to shoot something?


Return to posts index

Jiri Vrozina
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 25, 2007 at 11:41:55 pm

Global investment bankers,shareholders and other financial Gurus would not be impressed with your financial decisions...how about servicing your equipment??
Why should one only charge for labor only,what about rental houses??
Supplying Equipment for FREE - That is the new one.
RED Camera with lenses and other accessories like tripod,audio etc and etc will cost well over $70,000.....charge nothing??
Who cares it is paid for,why should video industry be any different from other financially more profitable industries on this planet?? Lets supply equipment for free.....


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 26, 2007 at 4:47:44 am


[Jiri Vrozina] "Supplying Equipment for FREE - That is the new one.
"


Hi,

For some reason the point I made is apparently not resonating with readers very clearly. I never spoke of supplying the equipment to others and not being paid for it. What I said - and I thought I made it clear(er?) in my last reply - is that once the camera is paid for, it's free for YOU to use whenever you like. That's not the case with film, because even if you own your equipment you still have to continually shell out for stock. Even tape-based digital cameras require stock purchases. Every medium has an archival cost, but RED is one of the few which does not have a recurring "stock" fee to use. This is a huge cost savings, especially when compared to film.


Return to posts index

AlexHuber69
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 26, 2007 at 1:35:20 pm

[H


Return to posts index

Arniepix
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 26, 2007 at 5:22:02 pm

[AlexHuber69] "For the "working DP's" the "card is cheaper than filmstock" is a valid point, but not a gigantic one. For that audience, ease of production, workability of the system, and quality of image is much more important."

A wonderful, wonderful point. No matter how good the footage looks, it's useless if you can't actually use it. And ease of use may make up for a lot of other deficiencies. Look at mini DV!

I find it interesting how much excitement there is over 50 cameras that are in beta testing, with a difficult, expensive workflow, as opposed to Silicon Imaging's SI2k cameras, which are shipping in good numbers & have a much simpler workflow. Or Thompson's much-delayed Infinity. But they're not a sexy as Red!

Arnie

Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 26, 2007 at 10:29:47 pm

Alex,

Good points and I do understand. I pay my bills by working for others, but I get the most joy out of life when I can test the limits of my own creativity and work on my own projects with no boundaries or politics. I just assumed that there must be other DPs out there that actually like to use their own tools from time to time for their own enjoyment! :-) I'm sure this applies to any kind of art... painting, still photography, musicians... professionals who are good at their trade will oft be sought after and commissioned for their work, but the time to explore, create, and expand on our craft on a personal level is what I think really elevates our abilities. Keeps us young, anyway!

I do maintain that RED - especially at it's quality - is far cheaper than anything else on the market, at it's pricepoint or several times higher. This cost factor can only be good for anyone involved in a production using the camera.

Thanks for your reply,

H


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 26, 2007 at 11:45:26 pm

I have never paid for a video tape or a foot of film that I paid for unless it was a personal project. The client pays for everything. The goofballs who cut a deal and then scramble to find 75 places that they can save a dollar are a joke. Our annual budget for video tape is 10-12 thousand dollars a year, and I have a 7x9 foot storage room, stacked to the ceiling with 25 years of archival footage. Can you even begin to put a number to that when figuring hard drive space? I would love more than anything to shoot on flash and store on BluRay and will do do when feasable.

We have been transferring all of my archival ESPN footage to DVDs over the last two years and it's not cheap. For the future, I can see storing on BluRay for now and halographic in the future, but storing on hard disc is not even a consideration. If you're wondering why I brought this up, so am I.



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 26, 2007 at 11:33:36 pm

[H


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 26, 2007 at 11:43:51 pm


[Steve Wargo] "You seem to have no concept of what a business is or how to properly account for your own time or the time using the equipment that is owned free and clear. This all sounds like a big hobby to you.
"


Hi Steve,

I'm a freelance DP, not a rental house. I realize that it's only recently that a good deal of working cinematographers have been purchasing and owning major pieces of their own gear, but I think there are several advantages to doing so. RED in particular is committed to ensuring that their product and their customers are not obsoleted in a few months' time, which happens frequently in this industry. Just yesterday they announced that they had made improvements to one of the boards in the camera and are willing, at their own expense, to cover all charges necessary to get all currently shipped cameras up to the spec of the new ones they are about to release. Another company would have just called that a "revision B," slapped a new model number on the camera, and forced you to buy a new one if you wanted the new hardware.

I pick the projects I'm interested in and make a fine living doing it. I'm lucky to have a job doing what I love. If you want to call that a hobby, feel free. Life is too short to take things so seriously.

H


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 27, 2007 at 6:26:39 pm

Well, I guess there's two ways to look at the board situation. 1. They made an improvement and are doing the right thing by updating. 2. They sent out a flawed product and are hustling to fix it before it's too late. I do not need any sermons from RED owners telling me how I am constantly beating up the product. I am simply being the devil's advocate.

This is their first time venture into this world of ours and there's a lot to learn about a lot of things. They do not have years of experience to fall back on, yet, they're doing a pretty good job of taking care of business, for newbies. As for other companies slapping a "B" designation on a fix, that is simply a moronic statement. Your cheerleader status is once again popping through.

They financed development with end user money.
Development took a few years longer than anticipated.
Some of the 1400 investors were getting antsy because they needed to turn pro before they got old. Others, like Mr. Tichelli and myself (both are already old), are using present HD technology to make a living until the second coming of HD.
RED was released a little too early.

Everything is right on track as far as reality goes and some of us had posted this timeline in early 2006 and were chastised about it. We were right on the mark.

I believe they have a great product in the making and will most likely put one in our inventory - when it's finished, but, there will not be one word of promotion from us until it works at 100%. That goes for the entire workflow.

And, as for your constant remarks telling me to relax or breathe, I am simply stating facts, not jumping up and down like some other people.

Have a nice day. Do some calasthenics. Bring that blood pressure down a few notches. And while you're at it, how about filling out that profile for us so we know who we're talking to, Mr Independent DP?

Steve Wargo




Return to posts index

Kevin Lang
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 28, 2007 at 3:48:34 am

Wow, have not been to the cow in a while its like jumping into a cold swimming pool in here! This feels so friendly and warm! (heavy sarcasm)



Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 28, 2007 at 7:37:54 pm

Just don't pee in the pool in your effort to warm it up.

There is a small rift between the RED Cheerleader Squad and the Practical Squad.

Steve W


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 29, 2007 at 2:47:57 am


[Steve Wargo] "
There is a small rift between the RED Cheerleader Squad and the Practical Squad."


I think the disconnect stems from this weird phenomenon that everyone apparently has to be one or the other. Is it not possible/acceptable to be practical and yet enthusiastic for new tools and options at the same time? Even if the workflow isn't completely polished yet, what RED offers is quite groundbreaking - especially at this pricepoint - and it's certainly going to cause other manufacturers to take notice. If nothing else, at least it's getting the notion of usable 4K out into the world at a faster pace.

Steve, I have nothing but respect for you and none of my comments are intended to be aimed at anyone in particular. I just have to make sure that the "practical" side (which ends up usually being more of a "skeptical" side) has balance with a realistic side as well.


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 29, 2007 at 6:53:55 am

All we "practical" people want to see is a product that works. This is my 25th year in video and I have seen some major players promise us the sun and the moon and we're still waiting. When you have a company as big as Panasonic bring out a major format (M2) to compete with Betacam and it goes in the toilet after several years on the market, we old guys have taken the Missouri position: "Show Me" the goods. And when you do show us a complete, working system, I too shall jump on your bandwagon.

By the way, we laughed at DV when it consisted of the Panasonic EZ1 and the Sony VX-1000. Do you recall when the maximum length of a firewire cable was 8 feet? What were we ever going to do with that? And if the mfrs had any confidence in it's future, we would have cheap tabletop players. They, too, know that it's a temporary thing, and it actually works. They've convinced the world that we should view our home videos using the camera for a tape deck.

Why don't all TVs have firewire inputs in the front of them? How easy would that be?


Return to posts index

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 29, 2007 at 9:30:24 am

[Steve Wargo] " Panasonic bring out a major format (M2) to compete with Betacam and it goes in the toilet after several years on the market,"

Steve, MII was introduced in 1985, and discontinued in 1999, not a short run. We sold over 175,000 machines. Did it win the Beta SP war, no, but we sure pushed Sony to respond. Why else would they have brought out thePVW series and the UVW series? MII remains as solid of a format as it was when we brought it out.

Now back to the discussion at hand. I couldn't let the remark stand as an example of promising the moon and not delivering, because, we most definitiely delivered and with each new machine we brought the price of component analog recording down without a scrifice to the performance of the format.

Best,

Jan



Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



Return to posts index

Todd at Fantastic Plastic
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 29, 2007 at 3:07:37 pm

MII actually wasn't a bad format. Back in my younger days I was the Creative Services Manager for a local television station, and it being an NBC affiliate MII was used for commercial and promotion production... where it was dubbed the "poor man's Betacam."

I thought it looked pretty good, I'd say comparable to BetaCam... the only real problem came when we had to go out of house for additional production, which we did on occassion. Of the five fairly big post houses we used, none of them could take MII, so we were forever dubbing stuff to one-inch.

I distinctly remember one of my early conversations with one of the companies: "What formats can you take?" "Oh, absolutely anything." "How 'bout MII?" Well, no, not MII of course, but anything else."

Unfortunately good (or sometimes even better) doesn't always translate into viability or market longevity.

BetaMax, anyone?


T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com






Return to posts index

Arniepix
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 29, 2007 at 5:01:34 pm

[Todd at Fantastic Plastic] "Unfortunately good (or sometimes even better) doesn't always translate into viability or market longevity.

BetaMax, anyone?"


Bing! Todd wins a Kewpie doll! History is full of "better" products that fell by the wayside.

[H


Return to posts index

H
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
by
on Oct 31, 2007 at 7:02:15 pm

[Arniepix] "We've had tapeless cameras for a few years. We've had 2k & 4k cameras for a few years. We've had super-35mm sized sensors for a couple of years. There's even a 65mm sized sensor in the Vision camera. The only really groundbreaking part is the price."

Sure, individually those things exist - but the revolutionary part is putting them all together into one compact system.

The only other usable 4K camera I know of is the Origin, which rents for three grand a day and is the size of a suitcase. And sure, the number of tapeless options in the field continues to grow (a good thing), but most of those offerings are relatively expensive in comparison to RED or skimp on features in order to deliver something more affordable.

In prosumer land (where the prices match RED most closely), there's Sony's XDCAM HD with 1/2" chips or Panasonic's "budget" HPX500 which uses a PAL SD sensor and their trademark pixelshifting magic. If you want native 1080p chips, you have to buy the $48,000 camera - which is three times the price of the RED body at a quarter of the resolution.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have more 4K options to choose from. Right now I'm in the RED camp because they're the only guys delivering. Sony previewed their 2/3" XDCAM HD model at IBC, but it conspicuously left out 24P capability in an effort to protect their higher-end HDCAM line. The intentional stifling of features to ensure a higher bottom line may make sense from a business point of view, but buyers aren't going to settle for it if there are reasonable alternatives available. So, yes, the price makes RED accessible - but the fact that they're the only guys offering an affordable 4K, tapeless, 24p, s35mm, PL-mount camera is why many consider the system revolutionary. It's the combination of all the elements you listed above that has garnered them a following, not because they were the first to pioneer any of them individually.

I would go further to say that most people give them a lot more credit for their "marketing" strategy than I would; they simply built a camera that people wanted and the discussion forum users took the obsession from there. RED has essentially been able to sit back and let the thing sell itself... whereas I still get mailers and promo DVDs from the other guys trying to convince me why their more expensive 4:2:2 systems are a better use of my money. Whether you like RED or not shouldn't make their success surprising.


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 29, 2007 at 5:31:01 pm

Jan,

85-99? I had no idea that it languished so long. All of the photogs at the local NBC affilliate called it the "Wonder" format. They would go out into the field and shoot M-2 and all the way back to the station, they would "wonder" if there was actually anything recorded on the tape. This was not my personal experience but they couldn't all be lying. On the news, it fluttered and flipped and sometimes lost it's color. The station went and bought their Beta stuff because of the number of complaints. I am, by no means, an advocate or fan of any company. we just need to have gear that always works and that talks to everything else.

In our present inventory, we have a WV-3240, WV-3250, CLE-300 x 2. In use today: DMR T2020, DVX100A x 2, AG-7650 & 7750, an MX-20, MX-50, and our edit controller is an AG-A850. This doesn't count all of the AG450s, AG-7500 A-B roll, AG-A750 controller and other gear that has gone away over time. Two units that changed the industry are the AG450 and the DVX100. But M-2? That wasn't your finest hour.

For others reading this, an edit controller is a device used when controlling two or more tape machines when performing tape to tape editing.



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

Kyle_S
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 29, 2007 at 11:53:31 pm

Steve,

lol, I never knew any of the NBC people who didn't want to help their MII gear find the dumpster. When Panny came out with the lower cost line I still never came across anyone who "wanted" to buy it. They bought it because they couldn't afford a BVW-70 or 75. MII dragged on until Sony decided to kill it. The intro of the UVW and PVW series was the stake in the MII heart.

I can't believe you still have a 7650 and 7750 still floating around. I can't begin to remember how much footage I shot back then with a 7450 docked to one of the F250 cameras. Now that was a great camera for its price at the time.

Maybe we should get a show of hands form everyone in here who can work an edit controller.

K


Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 30, 2007 at 11:08:28 am

That would be you, me and Zelin.



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck


Return to posts index

Leo Ticheli
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 30, 2007 at 2:45:58 pm

Back up, Steve!

You forgot to include the oldest dog in the pack, yours truly!

Remember I made my first edit, other than with photosensitive film, on a couple of quad machines!

It's been a long time since I touched a linear suite, but I'll bet I could still put up a good race with you on loading 1" reels! We still have one fired up, just in case, but I'll bet it hasn't seen a reel in years.

I have loved every minute of my career and embraced every new technology, but I'm pretty ruthless about yesterday's news; I for one will be delighted to see the end of video tape.

My new goal is retire the day I mention video tape to a new employee and receive a "deer in the headlights" stare because he/she has never heard of it!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo


Return to posts index

Kyle_S
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 30, 2007 at 5:41:46 pm

You know,

Sometime back I helped a friend out by editing a late night car show he was shooting for someone. It was shot on Beta sp and I cut it machine to machine with CG tossed over while the edit was rolling. All of the youngsters couldn't believe how much faster I put that together than they could in their NLE. They ingested the take, I had made the edit. Now that should change for certain with solid state recording, but same things still work great with a good old edit controller.

K


Return to posts index

Colin McQ
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Oct 31, 2007 at 7:45:55 am

*raises hand*

still have a u-matic that gets fired up from time to time as-well! Never know when ya might need some 1979 NHL footage and such!

Colin McQuillan
Vancouver BC



Return to posts index

Steve Wargo
My apologies to the other real editors
on Nov 1, 2007 at 12:26:43 am

I put a show together a few years ago and put all the CG, effects, music and what not, together in the nle, laid it to tape and did all of the hard inserts tape to tape. I saved hours of labor time. It was fun punching in all the edit points and then watching the machines do most of the work.

I should have known that Leo was a quad guy. Actually, his first graphics were done with a chisel, a rock and a piece of sandstone. It's a shame that a lot of the young techies don't realize how much knowledge we have stored away. If you put them in a production truck, they would be amazed at the number of buttons alone. Many of them think that a waveforn is a surfing technique. Water surfing, that is.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.


Return to posts index

video7105
Re: My apologies to the other real editors
on Nov 16, 2007 at 2:21:10 am

Well my JVC 860 is still spliced in between my DSR 80 and BR822, of course it's all tied with A/B switch boxes, so i and use either linear or my AJA IO. It's set up that way for doing those quick and dirty things, where there is no need to fire up the non-linear........and you are right, so many have no idea what we have come through in video hell to get here.

Won't be long before you'll say something to these young whipper snapper about tape and they will look at us like "Tape" what is tape, like we are from Mars.......

Yes Jan, your in this group of us too, lol

Dave
Digital Systems Resources
Hanover, PA


Return to posts index

Graeme Nattress
Re: Here ya go, RedHeads (more)
on Nov 22, 2007 at 7:11:39 pm

The first pro camera I ever bought was an MII. Now that takes me back a bit.....

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]