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Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.

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Sean Kapleton
Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 22, 2009 at 8:21:03 pm

Hello,

So have a new RED project on my plate and this time the client is insisting that we grade the locked edit with the R3D original raw files. The delivery will be 1080i HDCAM SR as well as web quicktime i believe.

Here is what I did: This was all 4k @ 24fps footage that I batch converted to 1920x1080 24fps ProRes(HQ) QT files with RedRushes...

Thinking that I would just grade these in COLOR and never have to look back - OF COURSE the client did some reading up on RED and now all of a sudden wants me to grade using the raw original R3D files...i have done a few projects now in RED where I just stick with the ProRes for 1080i delivery doing cc in COLOR and then just worrying about whatever delivery format at the end = no problems thus far.

I was just curious after having read the "RED FCS Whitepaper" what you guys might suggest for this project in that I did not use the L&T option in FCP but instead used RedRushes to make my ProRes(HQ) clips.

Any help or advice would be awesome.

cheers
Sean



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Russell Lasson
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 22, 2009 at 10:12:03 pm

I'd suggest bringing in all of the clips from the final sequence through Log and Transfer as "native". The trick then is to duplicate the sequence and make the sequence clips independent. Then reconnect them to the "native" QT movies that you imported instead of the ProRes files from RedRushes.

This works if your clips have the same name. If they don't, you can use automator to change the names of the new "native" clips to match.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Sean Kapleton
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 22, 2009 at 10:25:37 pm

hmmm not sure i totally understand...what about that clipfinder app - never used it but i posted in the COLOR section as well and got that as my only response thus far?



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Russell Lasson
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 22, 2009 at 10:31:22 pm

ClipFinder is a very similar program as REDRushes. The main way of getting R3D files into Color is to use Log and Transfer to import them as "native". This is a QuickTime wrapped R3D file. From there, you reconnect the clips in your timeline to the Log and Transfer versions of the same clips. Then send your sequence to Color.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Mike Most
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 12:44:48 am

Clipfinder can read a Final Cut XML file and replace the sources with either the R3d files or QT proxies. In Color, if the program sees that the source is a QT proxy for a R3d file, it automatically accesses the R3d file natively. What all of this means is that the following steps will get you from a ProRes FCP timeline to native R3d files in Color (assuming you didn't change file names, and also assuming that all of the original R3d files are under one master folder and in their original RDM/RDC directory structure):

1. Cut using the ProRes files and export the timeline as an XML.
2. Open Clipfinder and select Tools->Run Conform on FCP XML File. Select the source XML (the one you just exported from FCP) and a destination XML (call it "ConformXML" or whatever you want). Enable "Replace Clips with " and select one of the proxy resolutions (I usually use H, but you can use whatever you want). Add the directory that is the master folder in which the original R3d files are located. Click OK and go back to FCP.
3. Import the Conform XML you just made and open the sequence. You should see a duplicate of the ProRes sequence, but with all of the clips being the "H" Red proxies instead of the ProRes files.
4. Send the sequence to Color.
5. Once you've opened it in Color and confirmed that everything is there, save the project.
6. Go back into Clipfinder and select Tools->Fix Looping Bug in Color Project, and select the Color project you just saved.
7. Go back into Color and reopen the project.

Doing these steps will ensure that you are color correcting directly from the R3d files but avoiding a bug that results from using spanned files in Color. You should also now find the "Red" tab enabled in each clip in the Color timeline.

Good luck.



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Sean Kapleton
Great Responses just a couple questions...
on Jul 23, 2009 at 3:10:50 pm

hello Mike thanks for the detailed response!! this is awesome

i have a couple questions because the edit is simple for a :30 spot and I could in theory re-due this workflow if you think something else makes sense.

First of all what workflow would you have done? would you have used the H proxy to cut with or made ProRes HQ 2k qt files in L&T in FCP?? I have read a lot about how the quality of L&T clips is crappy compared to RedRushes for example...also if i did not have to go back to the RAW RED footage to grade in COLOR would you still have had me use L&T to make 2k HQ clips or would you have just had me make them in RedRushes as 1080 HQ clips and go all the way with that including grading in color?

Having read the Whitepaper and then read a lot of entries on this forum it seems there are conflicting views about what is the best workflow...the overall consensus is that cutting with proxies is ab ad idea and that one should either use the L&T FCP to make 2k ProRes HQ clips OR use something like RedRushes to do the same...a lot of guys have said L&T is crap - can you shed some light?

Its time for me to get going on this today so I just want to go about this the best way possible - again it is not too late for me to start from theb eginning because its a very simple edit and short form HOWEVER if what you are describing is no biggie then i am also happy to just take your recommended route.

cheers

Sean



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Mike Most
Re: Great Responses just a couple questions...
on Jul 23, 2009 at 6:31:47 pm

I would have done exactly what you did. Check that... I HAVE done exactly what you did. For many of the same reasons (i.e., a quick finish using the Prores files directly, or optionally going back to the R3d's).



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Ravi Kiran
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Aug 20, 2009 at 6:45:16 pm

I tried just importing the XML into Color, but if a clip was used more the once in the timeline, I get red Xs on any instance after the first. Also, I was unable to open the Clipfinder-generated XML in FCP. Whenever I tried to open the sequence I got an "out of memory" error. I sent the XML to Hans-Georg Daun, who created Clipfinder, so I'm sure he can help. Has anyone else gotten this error?


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Sean Kapleton
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 2:39:04 pm

thanks for the response!

so would you have cut this thing with 2k L&T made proRes clips or would you have used the H proxy qt files to cut with knowing that you would have to go back to the RAW RED for COLOR grading??

What are your thoughts on staying with ProRes HQ clips all the way through when this option is possible - and also i have read from this forum a lot that the L& T FCP created ProRes clips do not look as good as what RedRushes and similar apps can create...considering what my delivery is why would I even want to make 2k files and if i did make them 2k in L&T how would suggest making the locked picture 1080 sized for delivery after grading in COLOR?

thanks

sean



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Noah Kadner
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 3:28:07 pm

In Color 1.5 (just released) you can grade directly from the R3D files by creating a Cinema Tools database and linking it to a ProRes EDL from FCP. It's a bit more involved than just that but it does work. That gives you access to the raw workflow as opposed to ProRes-only which looks good but doesn't let you grade using the original camera metadata and RAW sensor info. We have this workflow detailed in my book btw. :)

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!. Unlock the secrets of the 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, and Panasonic DVX100.
http://www.callboxlive.com


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Sean Kapleton
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 3:33:17 pm

Hey Noah

thanks for the response - i actually have to start this today so i dont have time to run out and buy the book...but i can buy it because it would def be a big help on future RED projects as I seem to be handed more and more increasingly every month...

Can you explain a little bit more detailed this method you are describing...and can I use this method with what I already have done - that is, created 1080 clips in RedRushes and having to now grade from the RAW originals??

cheers

sean



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Sean Kapleton
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 3:35:42 pm

also just tried software update but it does not have 1.0.5 available...



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David Battistella
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 3:45:43 pm


You can download a standalone installer from teh apple website.

Have you used the RED FCS Whitepaper as a guide. It's available on the support section of their website.

You can also try to use clipfinder to generate an XML for color that will point to the R3D files.

David



Peace
Check out my new web series.
http://www.ripperhockey.com


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Sean Kapleton
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 4:00:22 pm

hey david
i will go to the apple website right now and try to find the most recent version of color - isn't it weird that its not coming up in software update though? how long has this update been available?

I have read the whitepaper - in fact i have it open right now and I am wondering if because its such a simple short for edit if it does not make sense to go back and start over since i possibly can make the time - what is your opinion?? I keep reading about how a lot suggest not using Log & Transfer and since my delivery is 1080 its not like I actually need 2K sized ProRes HQ clips...I do see an explanation on how to use clipfinder to resolve my issue however I just wanted your opinion on workflows - like what do you do when you have a 1080 HDCAM & 16x9 web qt delivery and your RED footage is 4k 24fps?

Do you grade in Color always using the R3D RAW originals and if so what route do you take OR do you sometimes stick with ProRes (HQ) all the way through and if so do you always create with L&T in FCP or do you sometimes actually use RedRushes to make the files to edit with??

thanks

sean





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Noah Kadner
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 6:10:33 pm

Problem is you need FCP 7 to use this workflow and I believe a newer version of the RED plugin than the one currently released so not going to work out for today. However you can export an XML out of FCP, use Clipfinder to relink it to the R3Ds and then load that into Color and you'll be good to go (relatively speaking). Go to this site for details:

http://www.daun.ch/software/

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!. Unlock the secrets of the 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, and Panasonic DVX100.
http://www.callboxlive.com


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Mike Most
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 6:40:24 pm

My guess is that even though the new Studio supports what you're suggesting, many people will continue to use the Clipfinder method because at least 90% of the Final Cut users I know have no idea what Cinema Tools is or does.



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Sean Kapleton
Re: Workflow Suggestions for COLOR having cut ProRes and now having to use R3D originals for CC.
on Jul 23, 2009 at 6:56:36 pm

NOAH & MIKE you guys rock!! thanks so much - you have put me at ease...

SO the redRushes 1080 route is OK and creates "better looking HQ media than Log&Transfer it seems and the grading in Color with the RAW R3d with Clipfinder will be do-able...thank you gusy for putting me at relative ease ; ) considering!!

I was just wondering also having never actually used the L&T tool in FCP for any RED projects - can it also make 1080 ProRes(HQ) clips andn ot just 2k?

I'm just reading about FCP 7 on the apple site now and it looks amazing - Noah i will buy that book for sure man let us know when it comes out!! its so cool of you guys to offer your time to help people out!!

cheers

sean



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