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Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)

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Max Sainvil
Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 4, 2009 at 3:30:55 am

My system:

Macbook Pro, Mac OS X 10.5.7 2.4 GHZ Intel core 2 duo, 4 GB in memory, 750 External Seagate HD (eSATA). I have no choice but to use this system. Can’t afford to upgrade yet.

Reason I’m here:

I’m a first time REDone user. We recently shoot a little over 2 hours of footage in 2k. Some shots EXT and the others in a green screen studio. Both 24fps and 100fps(slow mo).

I’m lost in post-production. I’ve been doing some reading here and there but it just confuses me even more. I guess cause every project has a different workflow…



Here’s the deal…

1. Where do I start? I’ve download all the red programs and updated my FCP to 6.0.5. This project is for both DVD and/or Blu Ray.


2. Can I offline edit in my system? Macbook Pro, Mac OS X 10.5.7 2.4 GHZ Intel core 2 duo, 4 GB in memory, 750 External Seagate HD (eSATA).


3. How do I offline edit, then online edit? I’m new to that. Never done that before.

4. Can I offline edit on my MBP then go to a Post Production House and export “online”?

5. How do I offline edit back and forth from FCP to AF and back to FCP? Basically, I have effects needed to be done in After Effects (latest version). All the selected green screen footage.

6. I’m new to Color. Should I use FCP color correction instead? Or should I quickly learn Color? Is one better then the other?

7. What is the order of the workflow? Should I go from Redcine to color, then to FCP and back to Color, then from Color to exporting on FCP? I know somewhere in between I have to go from FCP to AF and back to FCP. My head is going to explode.

8. Can I change the speed from 100fps to 24fps? Some shots were accidentally shoot in 100fps. Actually its all the green screen stuff. The DP told me I can, but just don’t know what would be the best way to go about it.

9. Should I just down convert to 1080i just to keep things moving faster in postproduction? Will that affect the whole Red experiences in quality and color? Is 1080i and 2k that big of a different? Whatever works for me to get started quicker… especially for the editing system I have.

Thank you in advance for helping me. Sorry for any typos. I’m a lost child in this “red world”. I’m similar to the little kid all crawled up in corner of his house crying for mommy.







Max Sainvil
maxsainvil@gmail.com
http://www.youtube.com/maxsainvil
cell: 267-971-4698


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Bob Zelin
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 6, 2009 at 7:09:47 pm

I have never seen a post like this. Anything I would say would just be an insult. I have been in this business since 1978, and if someone hired me to setup an Apple XSAN shared storage system (and I am known for low cost shared storage systems), I would say "I'm sorry, I am just not qualified to do this job for you".

Bob Zelin




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Russell Lasson
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 6, 2009 at 7:42:32 pm

[Bob Zelin] ""I'm sorry, I am just not qualified to do this job for you". "

Yes, it does sound like Max has bitten off more than he can chew.

By the way Max, how long will the finished project be? How many hours of raw footage are they shooting.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Max Sainvil
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 6, 2009 at 8:35:50 pm

Hi Bob.

Well, it wouldn't be an insult. I can take it. I'm just using this opportunity to learn what i know nothing about. Yes, It is too much to handle and I'm definitely not qualified. Gotta start somewhere! Didn't think post would be so crazy though. Hopefully I didn't disrespect anyone by asking these questions but I had to learn somehow.

Thanks,

Max


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Shane Ross
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 7, 2009 at 12:55:59 am

[Max Sainvil] "Gotta start somewhere!"

Normally that would be something small, like a small simple short film, or a 30 second spec commercial that is cuts only. Dipping your feet in the pool on a step, not jumping off the high dive into the deep end.

I have been editing for over 12 years, but when it comes to Red, because it is such a new format with constant updates and 5000 different workflows, I'd want some simple footage, way 2-3 min of stuff, so I could edit a small 30 spec commercial. or 10 min of stuff for a short film. No compositing. Just enough to get my feet wet.

Russ was nice to give you tips, so let's give him a round of applause.

Good luck

(100fps and you want it to be 24fps? lordy...)


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Russell Lasson
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 6, 2009 at 7:39:22 pm

[Max Sainvil] "1. Where do I start? I’ve download all the red programs and updated my FCP to 6.0.5. This project is for both DVD and/or Blu Ray. "

I would suggest finishing at 1080/23.98P. You also need to decide how you're going to finish. Do you have a budget for a post house to use something like Scratch to finish your project or do you need to finish/color it yourself. That will determine the workflow.

[Max Sainvil] "2. Can I offline edit in my system? Macbook Pro, Mac OS X 10.5.7 2.4 GHZ Intel core 2 duo, 4 GB in memory, 750 External Seagate HD (eSATA). "

Yes. But how you decide to process the files for offline will depend on if you're doing the color yourself in FCP or Color, or if you're sending it out to a post house.

[Max Sainvil] "3. How do I offline edit, then online edit? I’m new to that. Never done that before. "

If you finish on your own, then read the RED FCP whitepaper on RED's support site. Walks you though the different workflow options. If you're finishing at a different post house, contact them and ask them how they'd like you to offline edit.

We suggest for our clients that they process clips using REDRushes or Clipfinder to ProRes SQ at either SD, 720, or 1080. Then when the edit is complete, they send us the RAW RED files, a reference movie and an edl so we can conform/color in Scratch (or they just send us the whole project and we'll take care of it).

If you're finishing on your own, you might consider importing everying through the FCP log and transfer to ProRes and then just finishing from those files. If you're finishing somewhere else, I'd convert everything to ProRes SQ in SD at quarter res using Clipfinder or REDRushes.

[Max Sainvil] "4. Can I offline edit on my MBP then go to a Post Production House and export “online”? "

Many post houses can do this for you.

[Max Sainvil] "5. How do I offline edit back and forth from FCP to AF and back to FCP? Basically, I have effects needed to be done in After Effects (latest version). All the selected green screen footage. "

I would bring the R3D files into After Effects and pull the key from those files. Expect long render times. You'll need to download the RED plug-in I believe from the RED Support page.

[Max Sainvil] "6. I’m new to Color. Should I use FCP color correction instead? Or should I quickly learn Color? Is one better then the other? "

Color is a much more powerful program than FCP. Whether you want to learn it depends on whether you want to try to do things yourself. A proper Color setup should include a properly calibrated monitor and an proper output device (like an AJA card).

[Max Sainvil] "7. What is the order of the workflow? Should I go from Redcine to color, then to FCP and back to Color, then from Color to exporting on FCP? I know somewhere in between I have to go from FCP to AF and back to FCP. My head is going to explode. "

Read the RED FCP whitepaper. I would edit offline, then when ready, take the green screen stuff into AE and do the compositing. Then render back for FCP, or render DPX files out for a post house to bring in for color.

[Max Sainvil] "8. Can I change the speed from 100fps to 24fps? Some shots were accidentally shoot in 100fps. Actually its all the green screen stuff. The DP told me I can, but just don’t know what would be the best way to go about it. "

You shot at 100fps to a 24fps file. So the file that you ended up with is actually slowed down 416%. To get back to a normal speed, you should change the speed by 416% (100 divided by 24). Different programs change it by different numbers, but I would suggest using AE for this. This might not match the other footage very well as it was a different frame rate and will have a different feel to it.

[Max Sainvil] "9. Should I just down convert to 1080i just to keep things moving faster in postproduction? Will that affect the whole Red experiences in quality and color? Is 1080i and 2k that big of a different? Whatever works for me to get started quicker… especially for the editing system I have. "

Set your resolution to 1920x1080 for finishing. Don't even worry about the whole 2k thing.

-Russ


Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Max Sainvil
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 6, 2009 at 9:07:29 pm

Russell thanks.

If I had a "coolest people in the world book" you would be in it. Thank you for taking the time to help a confused filmmaker. Red changed my life more then college did. I will review and put into practice want you stated. This is basically a “give away project” for a client that turned into a “red test project”. No real budget involved (If so, I would have the pro’s handle post stuff).


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Russell Lasson
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 6, 2009 at 9:59:24 pm

[Max Sainvil] "If I had a "coolest people in the world book" you would be in it. "

You would need to have a very, very large book if I could make it in just by writing a little about the RED. I'm sure you'd be adding several people a day for doing simple things. Within a year, you'd have close to 1000 people in your book. That might limit how cool it would be to be in a "coolest people in the world book". Maybe you would have to reconsider your qualifications for getting into the book!

Just a note, processing R3D files on a laptop can easily be an 10:1 or even a 20:1 ratio. So if you have three hours of footage, it could take a couple of days of full-time rendering on your laptop. If you have like ten or twenty hours of footage, then I hope you have a couple of week:)

Just know that if you try to finish on a laptop, you'll probably have quite a bit of time rendering.

I might suggest just letting FCP import everything to ProRes, then just finish with those files instead of trying to go back to the RED files for the keys/color.

-Russ



Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Uli Plank
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 7, 2009 at 9:16:01 am

I'd suggest to transcode with REDrushes or Clipfinder with only 1/4 decode and a light codec like DVCProHD, that's much faster than 1/2 transcod to ProRes.

After offlining, you can always re-conform with Clipfinder (free) to your original files for Color or do a high-quality transcode for onlining.

An alternative would be CS4, the latest version works pretty well even on a laptop.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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denise quesnel
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 6, 2009 at 9:18:24 pm

Hi Max,

I first want to say that it is very generous of Russell to answer your questions so thoroughly. It is not that there is anything wrong with your post, it is that you have many, many gaps in your knowledge when it comes to RED workflow and it is difficult for experienced RED users to understand why you did not hire out instead.

You seem determined to learn this on your own, and since this is your own project that is definately within your right. You can learn Color and RED workflow within this project. What I would suggest is that you pay for a consultation at this point since you are very confused about the process. It is like trying to do a long algebra question but not knowing the basis of "x". If you pay for a consult you will be supporting someones business and also getting the exact info you need.

Otherwise you could pay for an editor on board and sit with them/shadow what they do. Once again it would cost money, but I think just giving it a go by yourself would be incredibly frustrating. The Cow can only help so much too before they feel like they are 'working' for free. Many people here consult on RED, perhaps it is a good place to start in regards to looking for consultation.

Good luck


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Oliver Peters
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 7, 2009 at 2:12:59 am

Max,

You cover so many issues that it's hard to answer them all. It's also unclear as to what you do and don't know in terms of general editing workflow. I've posted a number of blog entries about RED and posting RED projects. I will post the link here in case you find these helpful:

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/category/animation/red/

Best wishes,
Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Noah Kadner
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Jul 7, 2009 at 7:22:13 am

Also grab my book as soon as it's out- it's 350+ pages answering your every RED question. :)

-Noah

Writing RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color.
Now featuring the Lens Adapter Guidebook, Sony EX1 Guidebook,
DVD Studio Pro and How to Light Interviews.
http://www.callboxlive.com


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Hayden Houser
Re: Help. FCP and AF REDone workflow on MBP (clueless)
on Sep 28, 2009 at 8:02:39 pm

Looks like I've got another book to read.

Red:The Ultimate Guide to the Revolutionary Camera


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